Chatswood Hills State School Tree Issues| NT school tree kills boy and were advised!

fatkoala · 24th October 2008, 10:47 PM

First of all Eric I would like to say THANK YOU.

You took many threats to yourself and family to get concrete results. You have given me the courage to stand up for my convictions and I will be posting pictures and writing emails to pricipals of schools around my area who also have bad tree work done.

I will also be following up if Kurt publishes your letter, I hope he has the courage to do so.

I think an online petition where everybody can sign in their details like the "Getup" uses could be very benificial to this site to put names other than yours behind letters to government organisations could be useful.

On a seperate matter of deadwood to either live or dead wood ( maybe another thread) I believe that over millions of years of evolution trees "know" or in other words have developed the ulitimate sight for excision of a limb and so I always cut to to the deadwood even in "good" years. Why make a fresh wound that the tree has to use precious resources to compartmentilize ? These sights may not be exactly SHIGO ... however has anyone ever read anything by shigo on the maximum diameter of a pruning cut ? The most I could find was him talking about cuts 2 to 3 inches in diameter ( although diagrams and photos show larger cuts than this) Please correct me if wrong I may have missed this.

Ekka · 24th October 2008, 10:53 PM

Fatkoala,

Write to Kurt, his email is above.

I wonder if we could get Lances pictures shown in Kurt's aArborage under the 'Absolute Shockers" coz they leave for dead what he has printed this edition on page 87 and these are real fair dinkum pictures of a QAA contractor on a Q-Build jobsite.

Email the pics to him, just copy them off the forum. In his current edition he's got a couple of guys on a fork truck pallet about 18" off the ground, a painter doing his thing on A-Frame and trestle ... I'm sure these are a lot worse than those wimpy pics.

You email ABSOLUTE SHOCKER Pics to steve@trademags.com.au

Here you go Steve, here's a picture of a QAA contractor doing a prune on a govt job. True Story.

treevet · 24th October 2008, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatkoala

First of all Eric I would like to say THANK YOU.

You took many threats to yourself and family to get concrete results. You have given me the courage to stand up for my convictions and I will be posting pictures and writing emails to pricipals of schools around my area who also have bad tree work done.

I will also be following up if Kurt publishes your letter, I hope he has the courage to do so.

I think an online petition where everybody can sign in their details like the "Getup" uses could be very benificial to this site to put names other than yours behind letters to government organisations could be useful.

On a seperate matter of deadwood to either live or dead wood ( maybe another thread) I believe that over millions of years of evolution trees "know" or in other words have developed the ulitimate sight for excision of a limb and so I always cut to to the deadwood even in "good" years. Why make a fresh wound that the tree has to use precious resources to compartmentilize ? These sights may not be exactly SHIGO ... however has anyone ever read anything by shigo on the maximum diameter of a pruning cut ? The most I could find was him talking about cuts 2 to 3 inches in diameter ( although diagrams and photos show larger cuts than this) Please correct me if wrong I may have missed this.

I agree that a thread or other accomodation for letters from constituents of this forum directed at this situation would be in order. Sure they can read the thread but it rambles and is not concise like individual letters would be from, hopefully, well spoken and/or credentialled members. If one child is saved in honor of this child that was killed it will all be worthwhile and Ekka is the cornerstone of it all. Around here it is not so much the hacks as it is the obvious blinders decision makers put on when it comes to the safety of trees around schools. They always cry budget woes but they are always building some huge addition or play facility and we are always getting slammed with school taxes.

As far as the pruning question.....if you mean it is better to make one big cut at the base of a branch that is dying back as opposed to cutting it back and later removing it to not tax storage with 2 cuts at different times......Shigo, through research, found that stores of carbs are moved back into the stem for use as a branch is dying and removing the whole large limb during that process would negate this.

Snozzle · 1st February 2009, 05:16 PM

No, I don't think this thread is dead at all, Ekka.
ROOTS...
If one refers to the Full Coroner's Report on the death of Aidan Bott (in the NT Catholic School tragedy) at CITATION: Inquest into the death of Aidan Bott [2008] NTMC 025 and looks at paragraph 88, the tree surgeon who came to cut down the tree had some pertinent observations to make which leads one down, down below the surface...he noted that the tree was dry at the top even 'tho the branches were green. He notes that a branch sprung back to hit him and that unlike the forty or so other trees of this species he worked on in Darwin, this one was different...a very dangerous tree. He speculated on the possible reasons...the concrete collar around the tree the concrete and brick paving which surrounded the tree...prevented the tree from transpiring...[as we all (should) know trees need to get oxygen from airpockets and oxygen from rainwater, all this happening underground. But when the ground surface is sealed, or covered, the oxygen level plummets...turing healthy trees into dangerous, stressed or dying trees].
POROUS PAVERS...
Various references (on the Web) suggest ways of providing for trees' roots but most of these methods such as the cell method etc are pre-planting techniques, not for existing trees...the only way that I am aware of for giving more oxygen to tree roots of existing trees is to rip up the paving, slabs etc and replace with "pervious", "permeable" or "porous" paving. What is it? I looked around on the Web. The Google Book Search review for "Tree Roots in the Built Environment" (a UK local government publication) Tree Roots in the Built Environment - Google Book Search allows a preview of pages 306 and 308: "Pervious paving enables water and air to penetrate to the soil beneath". Illustrations show the use of "cobblestone" paving which apparently is little cubes of (impermeable) cement (joined underneath by rope netting for easy laying in sections) which are however separated by 10mm gaps which are left open and allow air and water to go straight through. Apart from cobblestone paving for pedestrian areas, there are the truly pervious pavers...as I said to the sales rep: "so you can put the hose on one side of the tile and the water will piss out the other side"...
The porous pavers are sold for about $35 a square meter (25 pavers) and are usually used in Australia to cover the drains at the foot of driveways...they just let the water go straight through...and there is no reason they can not be used around trees to protect the integrity of roots. At the least they have got to be better than cement slabs right up to the tree trunk.
COMPULSORY SIX MONTH INSPECTIONS BY QUALIFIED ARBORISTS...
A key recommendation of the Coroner in the Bott case was for "compulsory 6-monthly inspections by qualified arborists". Personally I believe that the current generation of school principals, being fluent in the tenets of US-style managerialism, and running schools as businesses, with an eye to lowering costs and the other eye on their next posting, are prone to the kind of mistakes made in the Adrian Bott case. In that case it is of note that the nun that was the previous principal got the experienced "tree-lopper" to come to the school every six months to cast an eye over all the trees and take the measures he though necessary to safeguard the students and the health of the trees. She paid the bill without question. It was only three years from the time she left....there were no more tree inspections and only cosmetic tidying-up work done after that...a period of three years...which period the Coroner noted was a dangerously long period of time.
THE NEGLIGENCE CONTINUES...
Where is my response leading? Well, almost all public schools in Occidental Australia never have preventative work done on their trees. NEVER. The periods stretch out to exceed a decade... ! Instead the following regime is followed:- A Faults reporting system www.det.wa.edu.au/education/finance/docs/faults_manual.pdf will not allow preventative maintenance, only work for immediate imminent dangers...caused by broken limbs. At page 7 (pdf page 9) of the faults manual: "Items which are not faults and should be funded by preventive maintenance or minor works provisions: GROUNDS: Tree lopping-except storm damage." Tree-surgeons get a report of either a (storm-damaged) fallen limb or a hanging broken limb, and come to the school to tidy it up. A photograph is taken of the limb to ensure that there was no over-servicing. Tree inspections are done every ten years or so but the reports are never acted upon. IF a tree sheds a limb in an out of the way place, then the limb is tidied as per above. IF HOWEVER, the limb falls near people in a way that causes distress, then "justice" demands that individual tree be dealt with as a dangerous tree. It is cut down. The important point to note is that any surrounding trees which are just as dangerous are ignored. The Aidan Bott case has just scratched the surface of negligence by Australian education authorities regarding management of their trees. As the groundsman in the Bott case discovered, to raise the issue of tree maintenance with one's superiors risks incurring their disdain, ire, and (in that case, allegedly) chortling contempt. For that was the response that the groundsman alleged he received (in his evidence) when he repeatedly raised the issue in the months before the tragedy.

Robert STAVROU · 3rd February 2009, 07:16 AM

Morning colleagues, information disemmination, proactive dialogue and discussion should be the future for this forum (as it has always been in the past) and more importantly this industry that we so passionately love.
Caution needs to taken that individuals or organisations are not so totally distanced to the extremities that there is no point of return for them, except from an adverserial perspective.
Yes there are work practices, where we as professionals shudder to see occur, and often it is not that people do not care (admittedly some don't); but that they simply do not know any better.
Diatride was a descriptive term that I read in a previous post. A terrible word that desribes behaviour that should be avoided, especially in this forum.
Let us all take a deeeep breath!

Ekka · 12th February 2009, 07:45 PM

Just some more about the NT fatality.

Grieving mother calls for Government action on trees - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Quote:

Grieving mother calls for Government action on trees

Posted Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:42pm AEDT
Updated Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:55pm AEDT

The mother of a schoolboy who was killed by a falling tree branch says the Territory government must take action at all schools to ensure trees are inspected regularly.

Nine-year-old Aidan Bott was killed by a falling branch at a Catholic primary school in Darwin in 2006.

A coronial inquest into his death recommended trees at all schools be inspected regularly, but a recent government report says checks can only be made compulsory at Government schools.

The Northern Territory Government says it can't push non-government schools to comply unless the Education Act is changed.

Aidan Bott's mother, Robyn Hunt says inspections should be carried out at all schools and she's disappointed in the government report.

"It doesn't have what the Coroner recommended. He recommended both public and private schools. It doesn't say that. It just has private schools have to be done, and not public. Why should they be any different. I'm a little confused.

"No one was responsible for Aidan, no one was responsible because he wasn't a worker, and he wasn't employed by the school, he was just a little boy, and that's the sad case of it all," she said.

Michael Duffy from the peak parents group, Northern Territory Council of Government School Organisations, says the Territory Government must ensure trees are safe at both public and private schools.

"It certainly leaves the whole question of safety up in the air, if there's a safety rule for government schools, why isn't there a safety rule for non government schools."

The Territory's Chief Minister Paul Henderson says the Government wants to address the problem.

"We will be doing a review of the Education Act this year, and there is certainly gaps there, in the Education Act in regards to ongoing auditing and monitoring of non-government schools in the Northern Territory."

well when they do the review perhaps they need to send it to Queensland where "she'll be right" can be upgraded.

TrevMcRev · 13th February 2009, 06:49 AM

This should be mandatory nationally.

The amount of schools i visit that blow off the idea as being too expensive to spend maybe $1000 on a Tree Hazard Management Plan for their whole school using lack of funds as an excuse is unbelievable.

Meanwhile they are building a million dollar gymnasium or arts wing or something.

Many many schools out there have trees with major defects that the schools responsible figures are totally unaware of.

More incidents like at Chatswood will happen.

Ekka · 13th February 2009, 05:09 PM

More news

Dangerous trees to be private no longer - Northern Territory News

Quote:

February 12th, 2009

THE law is to be changed to allow trees on private property to be inspected regularly following the death of a nine-year-old boy.

The Territory Government has ordered all state schools to employ a professional arborist to check trees every six months.

But Education Department acting chief executive Kevin Gillan said the Government did not have the power to force private schools to comply.

Chief Minister Paul Henderson said amendments to the Education Act would be made to enforce tree inspections at private schools.

Aidan Bott was killed when an African mahogany branch fell on him in the playground at St Mary's School in 2006.

He would have celebrated his 12th birthday on Monday.

Aidan's mother, Robyn Hunt, last night welcomed Mr Henderson's promise that the law would be changed but said: "It should have been done already - it should have been 12 months ago."

She said private schools should meet the same work and health safety standards as other public places.

"I can't understand why private schools should be treated any differently," Ms Hunt said.

"I don't want what happened to me to happen to any other mother."

Mandatory inspection of school trees was a key recommendation of coroner Greg Cavanagh following an inquest.

But in a report tabled in Parliament, Mr Gillen said: "Non-government schools cannot be directed to have compulsory inspections of all trees in school yards conducted at least every six months by a qualified aborist."

The coroner found there was insufficient evidence of a crime in Aidan's death. But he said the tragedy should have been prevented by the people taking care of him.

Mr Cavanagh said there was no doubt former St Mary's Primary school principal Tony O'Brien and the NT Catholic Education Office knew the tree that killed Aidan was dangerous. And they did not do anything about it.

"A little boy went to school one day and did not return," Mr Cavanagh said.

"The family is rightfully upset and distressed at this tragedy - so too is the entire community."

The key component is

Quote:

Chief Minister Paul Henderson said amendments to the Education Act would be made to enforce tree inspections at private schools.

Bruce Hopf · 28th June 2009, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

All I can say is I told you so, since when does the QLD Education Dept know what is right with tree work and when is Q-Build going to wake up to their poor standards and selection. Both of those debts I'm sure give a stuff about contractors following not only OHS but AS4373 pruning standards yet here is what happens. This time, unlike last time I got the pictures to prove what goes on. Just add it to the "typical" list of how the govt likes to select!

Last Thursday on the 10th of July I could hear chainsaws and chippers. It was also a day that my kids were in after school care so I checked out what was going on.

In this picture you can see the climber, note has no helmet, no hearing protection, no chainsaw pants or chaps and spiking a prune job. The section he is cutting off was dead so what's the point of those huge stubs?

And who says you need more than one attachment point!

This bloke here feeding the chipper without hearing protection, eye protection or a helmet.

Whilst his offsider is cutting without chainsaw pants or chaps and no helmet. Note the position of his left thumb.

One of the forest red gums they pruned has the usual very pronounced collars as seen here.

And seen here.

Well, just cut them off then!

And a bit of flush cutting styling going on too.

And who were these contractors?

I spoke with the climber, his name's Byron and he's from NZ. No qualifications and I doubt Lance has any at all running a show like that.

Imagine that, there was not one person with a helmet on! And these are QBuild contractors so I can only guess that Qbuild has no idea (as usual) and they have no OHS for tree workers.

I have pointed this out many times before. So why are these outfits getting the work? Why are these people with no qualifications getting the work?

And this is a QAA member, imagine that, just as well I am not because it is against the QAA's rules to do what I just did, expose their own crap.

Anybody, yes anybody can be a QAA member, just pay your dues, it means nothing and you can see here first hand how all of this is a farce involving not only the government from top to bottom but industry organisations. And I assure you this is the tip of the iceberg, this time I had my camera to show you but it's rampant.

QBuild at it again in Bundaberg?

http://www.treeworld.info/f9/arboris...cture-674.html

Controversial pruning on protected trees Durack Primary School - QBuild

Sad Sad case indeed. The picture of the guy with his Left Thumb on top of the Handel, instead of around the Handel of the Chain Saw, is better to have it shoved up his Arse.
A couple of years ago, our Telephone Company had put in Simpatico Lines in every house in our area. They use Bulldozers with Plows to install the lines along the sides of the Roads, and also put in 2" Plastic Pipe at the same time, that way if they needed to run new lines, they had a place to run them with out doing more line plowing.
There was a few Trees that were along the Roads, and when the Plow went through, a lot of Roots were cut between the Tree and the Road. First high wind came along, from the side of the Trees that the Roots were cut on, and yep, the Trees were uprooted and blew over.
One of the Trees took down Power Lines, and another one Totaled a Pick Up Truck, that was driving down the Road as it fell over. Lucky the Tree landed on top of the Box of the Pick Up, but just missed the Cab, and the Driver, and Passengers had a few bumps and bruises out of it. Another Tree blew over and crushed some parked Cars in a Yard.
Same as the Pictures that you have posted here of the Roots being cut Ekka, but my Question here is why weren't these Trees removed, or should they have been removed before the Trench was dug? I might be wrong here, doesn't this make a Tree weak on one side of the Root System, with the Roots cut like this, and make this Dangerous, in case of High Winds? If I am wrong, please correct me. Thanks. Bruce.

Galbee · 28th June 2009, 12:43 PM

Bruce your exactly right, if they worked on a measurement of 10(Australia) 15 (Britain) x dbh at 1 meter high for the minimum distance to be able to cut the roots, then everything else should be removed, thats the basic way to work it.
Companies usually employ an arb advisor in these cases at the planning stage. i have done several jobs for water power and sewerage comps in the past and the trees that were left are all still standing and growing healthily after months and years it could have been a case of penny pinching.

Ekka · 28th June 2009, 06:02 PM

The trees that had trenching nearby were removed by these contractors.

Galbee, you have quoted RPZ numbers not CRZ numbers.

Sean Freeman · 28th June 2009, 06:33 PM

Eric is correct within the standard it is the SRZ is effectively the critical area for protection almost a no violition zone, the TPZ can be impacted within defined limits....however once you impact more than 10% of the total area TPZ or impact part of the SRZ the consultiing Arborist must provide evidence that the impacts will not be unsustainable.

Incidently the full standard AS4970 will calculate the TPZ on 12 X DBH (measured at 1.4m from ground)

just starting · 10th July 2009, 11:29 PM

O.K. Guys,

It seems that Ekka hits the bad work hard but when it comes to offering a practical solution he is no better than the QAA. A year later and not a lot has changed. It's easier to criticise it is a lot harder to effect change. Truth is there is not a simple solution and having an inclusive organisation that educates and helps it members to upgrade has it's advantages.

So an inclusive organisation like the QAA or the ISA has the problem of letting anyone in then what are you thoughts of the NAAA or the ISA certification and BMCA program. The NAAA seems to have made a big impact on tree work in NSW. Of course, in spite of Ekka's rhetoric even strict lisensing won't stop people from breaking the law or treating customers poorly.

Of course there is a benefit in being a part of any industry association including the QAA just as there is a benefit to being a part of this group even though there are posters on this site that certainly do the wrong thing.

Abraham

treevet · 11th July 2009, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by just starting

O.K. Guys,

It seems that Ekka hits the bad work hard but when it comes to offering a practical solution he is no better than the QAA. A year later and not a lot has changed. It's easier to criticise it is a lot harder to effect change.

Eric's practical solution.....expose the bad guys and embarrass them into conforming with industry standards.

sounds like a winner to me. The above quote sounds like a whiner to me.

just starting · 11th July 2009, 06:31 AM

So let me see if I have it right ... there is only one or two bad guys doing all that bad work out there? Surely it will take a lot more than naming guys that don't know any better in order to bring about change. Correct me if I am wrong but the last article I read on one of these two guys is that they were still at it even after they were exposed on national TV (good job Ekka). If naming and shaming were effective there would not be prisons full of repeat offenders

Naming and shaming them has done nothing towards getting a lisensed trade and bagging on the QAA has not done anything to help unify the profession. .

How about writing letters to our elected representatives? I know that in NSW they were looking at making AQF III a requirement through their code of practice but I do have to say you almost never see lopping in Sydney any more.

treevet · 11th July 2009, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by just starting

If naming and shaming were effective there would not be prisons full of repeat offenders

There are many many people that are not in prison because of name and shame as well. No one said this is a perfect world. Peer pressure works in positive ways as well as it does in negativity.

ISA is just beginning a campaign where they send a contract to all Certs. They must sign and after they do they must report practitioners not operating under ANSI standards amongst other wrong doings. May not be the cure all but it is def. a step in the right direction. Nothing to fear if you are operating in good faith and appropriately.

Ekka · 11th July 2009, 10:12 AM

My comments are in red.

Quote:

Originally Posted by just starting

O.K. Guys,

It seems that Ekka hits the bad work hard but when it comes to offering a practical solution he is no better than the QAA.

Absolute garbage, many solutions offered and many approaches to a variety of places made. Highly assumptive stance from an ignorant point of view. In fact both QAA and QBuild changed their policies.

A year later and not a lot has changed. It's easier to criticise it is a lot harder to effect change.

A lot has changed, read the entire thread.

Truth is there is not a simple solution and having an inclusive organisation that educates and helps it members to upgrade has it's advantages.

Obviously they cannot police their own and perhaps many a back scrub going on? Look at their policy, not to publically expose eh.

So an inclusive organisation like the QAA or the ISA has the problem of letting anyone in then what are you thoughts of the NAAA or the ISA certification and BMCA program. The NAAA seems to have made a big impact on tree work in NSW. Of course, in spite of Ekka's rhetoric even strict licensing won't stop people from breaking the law or treating customers poorly.

So showing fact is rhetoric to you, you are truly challenged then. A system outside of any orgs grasp is better than one within, even the AMA covered up The Butcher of Bega in NSW quite well eh. A licensing system is a start, policing of such a start.

Of course there is a benefit in being a part of any industry association including the QAA just as there is a benefit to being a part of this group even though there are posters on this site that certainly do the wrong thing.

Abraham

Quote:

Originally Posted by just starting

So let me see if I have it right ... there is only one or two bad guys doing all that bad work out there? Surely it will take a lot more than naming guys that don't know any better in order to bring about change. Correct me if I am wrong but the last article I read on one of these two guys is that they were still at it even after they were exposed on national TV (good job Ekka). If naming and shaming were effective there would not be prisons full of repeat offenders

You hit the nail on the head, repeat offenders begins with catching and prosecuting offenders then adding consequent offences till they eventually reside in nothing but jail. Where as at the moment there's little that is done, however with say the BSA scheme here there is escalating fines and costs for repeat offences .... we have nothing. Also public can check the offence records of members, another thing they cannot do with tree workers. So there is a vast benefit.

Naming and shaming them has done nothing towards getting a licensed trade and bagging on the QAA has not done anything to help unify the profession. .

You don't know that. The new anti fatigue rules for truck drivers was over 10 years in the making, a lot of people and a long time. It starts with discussion, people being aware of the issue, then logging the issue with stats, then exposure, media etc and over time the mindsets will shift to where action will happen.

How about writing letters to our elected representatives? I know that in NSW they were looking at making AQF III a requirement through their code of practice but I do have to say you almost never see lopping in Sydney any more.

I have a stack here and you wouldn't have a clue who to and about what. Fact is we do more than our share, and don't shit on those who try. Also we start the discussion, guide the thread and email with a link or convert it to a PDF and approach people, there has been lots of impact into all types of affairs by this site, but you haven't been around long enough or taken more than an antagonistic approach.

In fact it appears your approach is one of defending organisations and attacking people not the issues, I know that trait in some-one else too well.

just starting · 11th July 2009, 10:41 AM

Ekka chill!

I haven't attacked anyone, either you or those that are involved in organizations like the QAA. I have only been critical of the process. I simply put forward the proposition that naming and shaming whilst effective is very limited in its scope and it alienates people. Many of the early tree pruners in Australia came from lopping and some of those companies now are great proponants of quality work.

I also pointed out that organizations like the ISA and NAAA have given us our pruning standards, given us much of our current safe work practices and have been vital in the development of our education. Bagging on them without giving them the appropriate credit and respect when due is hardly fair.

Abraham

treevet · 11th July 2009, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by just starting

Ekka chill!

proposition that naming and shaming whilst effective is very limited in its scope and it alienates people.

Limited in its scope? Sounds very unlimited in its scope......alienates people,...who? people that should be alienated until they fall into step.

Quote:

Bagging on them without giving them the appropriate credit and respect when due is hardly fair.

Seems like you are bagging on someone without giving appropriate credit and respect. Where is your forum? Where are your constructive steps?

just starting · 11th July 2009, 07:20 PM

I'm sorry, correct me if I am wrong but the ISA will and does allow anyone to become a member including tree loppers and more than 50% of the research that we rely on has been produced by the ISA and its members. Where is the bagging in that statement. Inclusive organisations have their advantage.

In the same way we owe our pruning standards and the current AQF qualifications largely to the NAAA and that is an exclusive organisation.

Abe

treevet · 11th July 2009, 11:08 PM

[

Quote:

QUOTE=just starting;65551]I'm sorry, correct me if I am wrong but the ISA will and does allow anyone to become a member including tree loppers and more than 50% of the research that we rely on has been produced by the ISA and its members. Where is the bagging in that statement. Inclusive organisations have their advantage.

Are you saying the ISA has people join and then these newly joined people write research with no qualifications? Then after that you say "inclusive orgs. have their advantage"? Make up your mind....are they bad or good in your mind?

Quote:

In the same way we owe our pruning standards and the current AQF qualifications largely to the NAAA and that is an exclusive organisation.

The ISA has been around since the early 1900's. How long has the NAAA been around. They did not use any of the ISA standard? Ha.... Actually the ISA standard is ANSI and you are even wrong there.....ANSI is an exclusive group of hand picked pros. that develop a consensus of "shalls" and "shoulds (in a standard format developed by a private company) that are constantly updated and improved.....so you are inaccurate here as well.....Abe

Done it · 12th July 2009, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by just starting

So let me see if I have it right ... but I do have to say you almost never see lopping in Sydney any more.

It's a big place.

just starting · 12th July 2009, 12:18 AM

No! I am saying the ISA has many members that lop, top, hat rack, lions tail and spike trees and in spite of this the organisation has added a lot to our profession. I believe that the ISA has a policy of not naming and shaming. It is an organisation like the QAA that is focussed on education and or improving standards.

I think the NAAA started in about the 1980's and I am sure that they relied on other standards and publications and I believe that the credits are there in the front of the Australian Standard and the original NAAA standard that gave rise to the Australian Standard. I know that the NAAA has a copy of the original document. Because of the NAAA lopping started to be phased out in Sydney in the late 1980's and as a result of campaigning by its members a Certificate and Diploma of Arboriculture was developed as a part of the AQF package.

What is wrong with the NAAA or the ISA certification programmes?

Many years ago I went to a course by Phil Hadlington. He taught flush cutting, painting and filling cavities and was still teaching cavity filling and painting in the 1990's. In spite of this he contributed an enormous amount to the growth of arboriculture in Australia.

I certainly don't accept unethical behaviour but I do understand that some people are not as well educated as others or see that lopping a tree is meeting the clients needs and is not something they think is wrong or may be like Phil they may simply be stuck in their ways. (That doesn't make it right but it does make me want to treat them with respect and dignity whilst I try and assist them in seeing the errors of their ways just like you are trying to do with me here on this forum). Is that wrong?

Abraham

just starting · 12th July 2009, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Done it

It's a big place.

In deed it is. Millions of trees and lots of people involved in the tree care industry. That is why it is amazing that you seldom see lopped trees. In the 70's there was one on nearly every street.

You must be old enough too recall Parramatta Council giving permission to lop trees when you asked for consent to prune. I found such a form in the files just the other day dated 1990. Now if they catch you it is an automatic $1500 fine for an individual or $3000 for a company and they can also prosecute in the LEC.

If we need to name and shame Fairfield City Council still recomends tree lopping and Blacktown Council does not even employ a qualified TPO.

treevet · 12th July 2009, 12:38 AM

[QUOTE=just starting;65581]

Quote:

I believe that the ISA has a policy of not naming and shaming. It is an organisation like the QAA that is focussed on education and or improving standards.

They just changed that policy as I mentioned earlier with this contract which I have not received yet (for CA's)

Quote:

Many years ago I went to a course by Phil Hadlington. He taught flush cutting, painting and filling cavities and was still teaching cavity filling and painting in the 1990's. In spite of this he contributed an enormous amount to the growth of arboriculture in Australia.

Sometimes it takes shocking or incarcerating people to bring about change.

Quote:

I may simply be stuck in their ways. (That doesn't make it right but it does make me want to treat them with respect and dignity whilst I try and assist them in seeing the errors of their ways just like you are trying to do with me here on this forum). Is that wrong?

You sound like you are a nice person but sometimes, like with your own children, you need to practice "tough love" and reserve the respect until they are "doing the right thing" IMO.

just starting · 12th July 2009, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treevet

ISA is just beginning a campaign where they send a contract to all Certs. They must sign and after they do they must report practitioners not operating under ANSI standards amongst other wrong doings. May not be the cure all but it is def. a step in the right direction. Nothing to fear if you are operating in good faith and appropriately.

Do you have a reference for this. I know that they have a code of ethics but I am unaware that they are requiring us to act as tree police.

treevet · 12th July 2009, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by just starting

Do you have a reference for this. I know that they have a code of ethics but I am unaware that they are requiring us to act as tree police.

I will look for a reference but it is common knowledge over here now.

treevet · 12th July 2009, 01:03 AM

International Society of Arboriculture

I hope it is on this page but, if not, a minimal of searching will turn it up.

Ekka · 12th July 2009, 08:09 AM

We are not an org and free from any bounds of such.

Part of our role is similar to media, telling the story and allowing people to come forth and do the same. So this whole thread is the story of one school ... and what happened, you don't find it an interesting piece of what most would say is very typical here?

The alternative would have been to report the incident to Qld Education (which I did but got ignored), report it to the QAA (and get labelled a whiner which they have done in the past), and tell Qbuild who blow you off (which they have in the past). So you saw what happened, I wrote to all parties and ministers and published it here. What made the difference to action?

Publishing it here. Who else would have published to make a difference? None!

This place is required, and I charge members to tell their stories, this is the coal face and reporting such.

Have a look through the forum and see the other stories, there's plenty, interesting read.

TrevMcRev · 12th July 2009, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by just starting

Do you have a reference for this. I know that they have a code of ethics but I am unaware that they are requiring us to act as tree police.

Here you go, files attached. See the Code of Ethics, Point I.A.2 & I.A.6.

I.A.2 Comply with all accepted professional standards related to arboriculture
practice, including national practice standards and policies.

I.A.6. Report apparent violations of the Code of Ethics by a certificant or candidate
upon a reasonable and clear factual basis.

Yes it is true, ISA have realised that covering up bad work from within your own organisation is a bad thing. Of course shonks should be exposed. Would the medical profession have a code amongst themselves that says malpractice is ok, just dont tell anyone or dob in other quacks.

Neither should any australian arboricultural organisation. If it's purpose is to advance the standard of tree works for the greater good, then it should be doing everything in its power to expose poor work in general and at the utmost, not tolerate it within its very own organisation.

This should be the difference between an "arboricultural association" & a "contractors club"

24th October 2008, 10:47 PM	#121
fatkoala Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Mildura Posts: 58	Re: Chatswood Hills State School Tree Issues\| NT school tree kills boy and were advis First of all Eric I would like to say THANK YOU. You took many threats to yourself and family to get concrete results. You have given me the courage to stand up for my convictions and I will be posting pictures and writing emails to pricipals of schools around my area who also have bad tree work done. I will also be following up if Kurt publishes your letter, I hope he has the courage to do so. I think an online petition where everybody can sign in their details like the "Getup" uses could be very benificial to this site to put names other than yours behind letters to government organisations could be useful. On a seperate matter of deadwood to either live or dead wood ( maybe another thread) I believe that over millions of years of evolution trees "know" or in other words have developed the ulitimate sight for excision of a limb and so I always cut to to the deadwood even in "good" years. Why make a fresh wound that the tree has to use precious resources to compartmentilize ? These sights may not be exactly SHIGO ... however has anyone ever read anything by shigo on the maximum diameter of a pruning cut ? The most I could find was him talking about cuts 2 to 3 inches in diameter ( although diagrams and photos show larger cuts than this) Please correct me if wrong I may have missed this.

24th October 2008, 10:53 PM	#122
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort & Seldom Wrong Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 9,789	Re: Chatswood Hills State School Tree Issues\| NT school tree kills boy and were advis Fatkoala, Write to Kurt, his email is above. I wonder if we could get Lances pictures shown in Kurt's aArborage under the 'Absolute Shockers" coz they leave for dead what he has printed this edition on page 87 and these are real fair dinkum pictures of a QAA contractor on a Q-Build jobsite. Email the pics to him, just copy them off the forum. In his current edition he's got a couple of guys on a fork truck pallet about 18" off the ground, a painter doing his thing on A-Frame and trestle ... I'm sure these are a lot worse than those wimpy pics. You email ABSOLUTE SHOCKER Pics to steve@trademags.com.au Here you go Steve, here's a picture of a QAA contractor doing a prune on a govt job. True Story. __________________ TAS Training & Assessment Services\| Arb and Hort Training available here Free Online Tree Value Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online TPZ and SRZ AS4970-2009 Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online Tree Surface Area and Tree Volume Calculator by TreeWorld Free Tree and Green Industry Deep Link Directory ... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist, Tree and Arborist Reports \| Project Arborist

1st February 2009, 05:16 PM	#124
Snozzle I'm new here so be nice Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 3	Re: Chatswood Hills State School Tree Issues\| NT school tree kills boy and were advis No, I don't think this thread is dead at all, Ekka. ROOTS... If one refers to the Full Coroner's Report on the death of Aidan Bott (in the NT Catholic School tragedy) at CITATION: Inquest into the death of Aidan Bott [2008] NTMC 025 and looks at paragraph 88, the tree surgeon who came to cut down the tree had some pertinent observations to make which leads one down, down below the surface...he noted that the tree was dry at the top even 'tho the branches were green. He notes that a branch sprung back to hit him and that unlike the forty or so other trees of this species he worked on in Darwin, this one was different...a very dangerous tree. He speculated on the possible reasons...the concrete collar around the tree the concrete and brick paving which surrounded the tree...prevented the tree from transpiring...[as we all (should) know trees need to get oxygen from airpockets and oxygen from rainwater, all this happening underground. But when the ground surface is sealed, or covered, the oxygen level plummets...turing healthy trees into dangerous, stressed or dying trees]. POROUS PAVERS... Various references (on the Web) suggest ways of providing for trees' roots but most of these methods such as the cell method etc are pre-planting techniques, not for existing trees...the only way that I am aware of for giving more oxygen to tree roots of existing trees is to rip up the paving, slabs etc and replace with "pervious", "permeable" or "porous" paving. What is it? I looked around on the Web. The Google Book Search review for "Tree Roots in the Built Environment" (a UK local government publication) Tree Roots in the Built Environment - Google Book Search allows a preview of pages 306 and 308: "Pervious paving enables water and air to penetrate to the soil beneath". Illustrations show the use of "cobblestone" paving which apparently is little cubes of (impermeable) cement (joined underneath by rope netting for easy laying in sections) which are however separated by 10mm gaps which are left open and allow air and water to go straight through. Apart from cobblestone paving for pedestrian areas, there are the truly pervious pavers...as I said to the sales rep: "so you can put the hose on one side of the tile and the water will piss out the other side"... The porous pavers are sold for about $35 a square meter (25 pavers) and are usually used in Australia to cover the drains at the foot of driveways...they just let the water go straight through...and there is no reason they can not be used around trees to protect the integrity of roots. At the least they have got to be better than cement slabs right up to the tree trunk. COMPULSORY SIX MONTH INSPECTIONS BY QUALIFIED ARBORISTS... A key recommendation of the Coroner in the Bott case was for "compulsory 6-monthly inspections by qualified arborists". Personally I believe that the current generation of school principals, being fluent in the tenets of US-style managerialism, and running schools as businesses, with an eye to lowering costs and the other eye on their next posting, are prone to the kind of mistakes made in the Adrian Bott case. In that case it is of note that the nun that was the previous principal got the experienced "tree-lopper" to come to the school every six months to cast an eye over all the trees and take the measures he though necessary to safeguard the students and the health of the trees. She paid the bill without question. It was only three years from the time she left....there were no more tree inspections and only cosmetic tidying-up work done after that...a period of three years...which period the Coroner noted was a dangerously long period of time. THE NEGLIGENCE CONTINUES... Where is my response leading? Well, almost all public schools in Occidental Australia never have preventative work done on their trees. NEVER. The periods stretch out to exceed a decade... ! Instead the following regime is followed:- A Faults reporting system www.det.wa.edu.au/education/finance/docs/faults_manual.pdf will not allow preventative maintenance, only work for immediate imminent dangers...caused by broken limbs. At page 7 (pdf page 9) of the faults manual: "Items which are not faults and should be funded by preventive maintenance or minor works provisions: GROUNDS: Tree lopping-except storm damage." Tree-surgeons get a report of either a (storm-damaged) fallen limb or a hanging broken limb, and come to the school to tidy it up. A photograph is taken of the limb to ensure that there was no over-servicing. Tree inspections are done every ten years or so but the reports are never acted upon. IF a tree sheds a limb in an out of the way place, then the limb is tidied as per above. IF HOWEVER, the limb falls near people in a way that causes distress, then "justice" demands that individual tree be dealt with as a dangerous tree. It is cut down. The important point to note is that any surrounding trees which are just as dangerous are ignored. The Aidan Bott case has just scratched the surface of negligence by Australian education authorities regarding management of their trees. As the groundsman in the Bott case discovered, to raise the issue of tree maintenance with one's superiors risks incurring their disdain, ire, and (in that case, allegedly) chortling contempt. For that was the response that the groundsman alleged he received (in his evidence) when he repeatedly raised the issue in the months before the tragedy.

3rd February 2009, 07:16 AM	#125
Robert STAVROU Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 61	Re: Chatswood Hills State School Tree Issues\| NT school tree kills boy and were advis Morning colleagues, information disemmination, proactive dialogue and discussion should be the future for this forum (as it has always been in the past) and more importantly this industry that we so passionately love. Caution needs to taken that individuals or organisations are not so totally distanced to the extremities that there is no point of return for them, except from an adverserial perspective. Yes there are work practices, where we as professionals shudder to see occur, and often it is not that people do not care (admittedly some don't); but that they simply do not know any better. Diatride was a descriptive term that I read in a previous post. A terrible word that desribes behaviour that should be avoided, especially in this forum. Let us all take a deeeep breath! __________________ STAV

13th February 2009, 06:49 AM	#127
TrevMcRev Sponsor Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 1,429	Re: Chatswood Hills State School Tree Issues\| NT school tree kills boy and were advis This should be mandatory nationally. The amount of schools i visit that blow off the idea as being too expensive to spend maybe $1000 on a Tree Hazard Management Plan for their whole school using lack of funds as an excuse is unbelievable. Meanwhile they are building a million dollar gymnasium or arts wing or something. Many many schools out there have trees with major defects that the schools responsible figures are totally unaware of. More incidents like at Chatswood will happen. __________________ Total Tree Care - Melbourne Arborist Reports & Consulting,Tree Pruning & Removal \| Elm Leaf Beetle Treatment Melbourne www.treegear.com.au - Australia's Best Value Arborist Supplies

28th June 2009, 12:43 PM	#130
Galbee Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Brisbane Aus Posts: 1,189	Re: Chatswood Hills State School Tree Issues\| NT school tree kills boy and were advis Bruce your exactly right, if they worked on a measurement of 10(Australia) 15 (Britain) x dbh at 1 meter high for the minimum distance to be able to cut the roots, then everything else should be removed, thats the basic way to work it. Companies usually employ an arb advisor in these cases at the planning stage. i have done several jobs for water power and sewerage comps in the past and the trees that were left are all still standing and growing healthily after months and years it could have been a case of penny pinching. __________________ In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king

28th June 2009, 06:02 PM	#131
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort & Seldom Wrong Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 9,789	Re: Chatswood Hills State School Tree Issues\| NT school tree kills boy and were advis The trees that had trenching nearby were removed by these contractors. Galbee, you have quoted RPZ numbers not CRZ numbers. __________________ TAS Training & Assessment Services\| Arb and Hort Training available here Free Online Tree Value Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online TPZ and SRZ AS4970-2009 Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online Tree Surface Area and Tree Volume Calculator by TreeWorld Free Tree and Green Industry Deep Link Directory ... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist, Tree and Arborist Reports \| Project Arborist

10th July 2009, 11:29 PM	#133
just starting Former Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 37	Re: Chatswood Hills State School Tree Issues\| NT school tree kills boy and were advis O.K. Guys, It seems that Ekka hits the bad work hard but when it comes to offering a practical solution he is no better than the QAA. A year later and not a lot has changed. It's easier to criticise it is a lot harder to effect change. Truth is there is not a simple solution and having an inclusive organisation that educates and helps it members to upgrade has it's advantages. So an inclusive organisation like the QAA or the ISA has the problem of letting anyone in then what are you thoughts of the NAAA or the ISA certification and BMCA program. The NAAA seems to have made a big impact on tree work in NSW. Of course, in spite of Ekka's rhetoric even strict lisensing won't stop people from breaking the law or treating customers poorly. Of course there is a benefit in being a part of any industry association including the QAA just as there is a benefit to being a part of this group even though there are posters on this site that certainly do the wrong thing. Abraham

11th July 2009, 06:31 AM	#135
just starting Former Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 37	Re: Chatswood Hills State School Tree Issues\| NT school tree kills boy and were advis So let me see if I have it right ... there is only one or two bad guys doing all that bad work out there? Surely it will take a lot more than naming guys that don't know any better in order to bring about change. Correct me if I am wrong but the last article I read on one of these two guys is that they were still at it even after they were exposed on national TV (good job Ekka). If naming and shaming were effective there would not be prisons full of repeat offenders Naming and shaming them has done nothing towards getting a lisensed trade and bagging on the QAA has not done anything to help unify the profession. . How about writing letters to our elected representatives? I know that in NSW they were looking at making AQF III a requirement through their code of practice but I do have to say you almost never see lopping in Sydney any more.

11th July 2009, 10:41 AM	#138
just starting Former Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 37	Re: Chatswood Hills State School Tree Issues\| NT school tree kills boy and were advis Ekka chill! I haven't attacked anyone, either you or those that are involved in organizations like the QAA. I have only been critical of the process. I simply put forward the proposition that naming and shaming whilst effective is very limited in its scope and it alienates people. Many of the early tree pruners in Australia came from lopping and some of those companies now are great proponants of quality work. I also pointed out that organizations like the ISA and NAAA have given us our pruning standards, given us much of our current safe work practices and have been vital in the development of our education. Bagging on them without giving them the appropriate credit and respect when due is hardly fair. Abraham

11th July 2009, 07:20 PM	#140
just starting Former Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 37	Re: Chatswood Hills State School Tree Issues\| NT school tree kills boy and were advis I'm sorry, correct me if I am wrong but the ISA will and does allow anyone to become a member including tree loppers and more than 50% of the research that we rely on has been produced by the ISA and its members. Where is the bagging in that statement. Inclusive organisations have their advantage. In the same way we owe our pruning standards and the current AQF qualifications largely to the NAAA and that is an exclusive organisation. Abe

12th July 2009, 12:18 AM	#143
just starting Former Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 37	Re: Chatswood Hills State School Tree Issues\| NT school tree kills boy and were advis No! I am saying the ISA has many members that lop, top, hat rack, lions tail and spike trees and in spite of this the organisation has added a lot to our profession. I believe that the ISA has a policy of not naming and shaming. It is an organisation like the QAA that is focussed on education and or improving standards. I think the NAAA started in about the 1980's and I am sure that they relied on other standards and publications and I believe that the credits are there in the front of the Australian Standard and the original NAAA standard that gave rise to the Australian Standard. I know that the NAAA has a copy of the original document. Because of the NAAA lopping started to be phased out in Sydney in the late 1980's and as a result of campaigning by its members a Certificate and Diploma of Arboriculture was developed as a part of the AQF package. What is wrong with the NAAA or the ISA certification programmes? Many years ago I went to a course by Phil Hadlington. He taught flush cutting, painting and filling cavities and was still teaching cavity filling and painting in the 1990's. In spite of this he contributed an enormous amount to the growth of arboriculture in Australia. I certainly don't accept unethical behaviour but I do understand that some people are not as well educated as others or see that lopping a tree is meeting the clients needs and is not something they think is wrong or may be like Phil they may simply be stuck in their ways. (That doesn't make it right but it does make me want to treat them with respect and dignity whilst I try and assist them in seeing the errors of their ways just like you are trying to do with me here on this forum). Is that wrong? Abraham

12th July 2009, 01:03 AM	#148
treevet Monument Status Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Posts: 2,373	Re: Chatswood Hills State School Tree Issues\| NT school tree kills boy and were advis International Society of Arboriculture I hope it is on this page but, if not, a minimal of searching will turn it up.

12th July 2009, 08:09 AM	#149
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort & Seldom Wrong Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 9,789	Re: Chatswood Hills State School Tree Issues\| NT school tree kills boy and were advis We are not an org and free from any bounds of such. Part of our role is similar to media, telling the story and allowing people to come forth and do the same. So this whole thread is the story of one school ... and what happened, you don't find it an interesting piece of what most would say is very typical here? The alternative would have been to report the incident to Qld Education (which I did but got ignored), report it to the QAA (and get labelled a whiner which they have done in the past), and tell Qbuild who blow you off (which they have in the past). So you saw what happened, I wrote to all parties and ministers and published it here. What made the difference to action? Publishing it here. Who else would have published to make a difference? None! This place is required, and I charge members to tell their stories, this is the coal face and reporting such. Have a look through the forum and see the other stories, there's plenty, interesting read. __________________ TAS Training & Assessment Services\| Arb and Hort Training available here Free Online Tree Value Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online TPZ and SRZ AS4970-2009 Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online Tree Surface Area and Tree Volume Calculator by TreeWorld Free Tree and Green Industry Deep Link Directory ... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist, Tree and Arborist Reports \| Project Arborist

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