Cavity cleaning| insert tubes| fungicide| burning

Eric Frei · 27th November 2009, 05:08 PM

You know, I must have gone to the wrong college.

Whilst I did speculate about (cauterizing, get an oxy blow torch and crisp the area) check this out, true story from India.

Tree surgery is like filling a tooth cavity - dnaindia.com

Quote:

Bangalore: "Tree surgery is similar to chopping hair of our head," said KC Sharma, former director of horticulture at New Delhi Municipality, adding, "They get nourished when pruned."
Sharma compared tree surgery to a human tooth and explained that the process will only help remove the dead weight and help them grow stronger.

"Just like a human being develops dental cavities, trees also develop hollow cavities. Such trees pose serious threat, especially if they are on the road sides. They require surgery.

Hence, first remove the decayed part of the tree and clean the hollow cavity which is caused due to a fungal infection. The upper portion of the hollow part is then burnt and scooped out, and then the infected part is treated with fungicide. After this, two or three metallic pipes are inserted into the cleaned cavity of the tree, which is then filled with cement concrete."

Sharma said this process will ensure that the tree survives for an additional 30 to 40 years.
He said that the BBMP can convince the public of tree surgeries by beginning it on a trial basis in two or three roads of the city. "It needs to be done once in four to five years before the monsoon sets in," he said.

Drouin Tree Service · 27th November 2009, 06:24 PM

I have alot of respect for what he says.

Eric Frei · 27th November 2009, 07:46 PM

You serious?

stjawa · 27th November 2009, 08:41 PM

Think of the positives Ekka especially the roadside trees.Once the jobs done you can attach the power and phone lines on the tree,then bang on a street light.

Voon Chin Seng · 27th November 2009, 11:04 PM

Yes, this has been practised long ago in Europe (inclusive UK).

Recently a new material is used to fill the cavity and claimed it is far better and effective than using cement concrete.

Eric Frei · 28th November 2009, 07:52 AM

Do you know what the new material is?

Bruce Hopf · 28th November 2009, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stjawa

Think of the positives Ekka especially the roadside trees.Once the jobs done you can attach the power and phone lines on the tree,then bang on a street light.

. Bruce.

NeTree · 28th November 2009, 03:50 PM

You just can't make this stuff up.

Eric Frei · 28th November 2009, 04:07 PM

Like this head honcho says .....

"They get nourished when pruned"

Oh really, that's interesting. I thought they got wounded and perhaps lost photosynthetic food producing resources (if section was in leaf), lost storage capacity within the piece removed and have to engage chemical defences to ward of infection from the exposed wood at the cut.

But hey. What do I know.

Also draining cavities, well in fact the best thing is if they stayed filled as fungi need oxygen to survive. Being filled with water would mean anaerobic conditions. Furthermore to insert the drains he drills through good wood spreading the infection. Now even in torential rain we will have a moist environment.

To stop fungi you need below 20% moisture content, very hard to achieve in a living tree in an outdoor environment, hasn't been done yet. The fungi are deep within the wood, digesting cells. Fruiting bodies are not the fungi that is decaying the tree. Scraping the surface does little, the fungi are deeper. Applying fungicide, it doesn't penetrate deep enough. Biocontrol tests have shown that they dont penetrate deep enough either. We are talking about decaying cavities not fresh cut and immediately treated timbers. For the outdoor timbers of playgrounds etc they are CCA treated and are not living trees where moisture is being pumped around internally.

Filling with concrete has long been known to be bullshit. Some experiements with expanding foam have shown faster closure as woundwood has something to grow over rather than just roll a rib at the door of the opening. either methods of attempting to prevent moisture entering the cavity aren't 100% fool proof. Capping over wounds and cavites has also been tried, similar problems. In colder environments expanding foam has some credibility in the sense of stopping cracking with freezing, if water ponds then freezes it can expand and crack wood. What about in a semi tropical environment like here where humidity is 90%, hard to prevent moisture/dew.

Applying a fungicide via injection to the tree, no vessels to move it around in heartwood. Pressure injecting the wound area might be an option though, like a needle and pierce the heartwood, pressurized so it forces chemical into the fibres, about the only shot I see.

The burning idea, I think that has to be done at the time of wounding. Burning the surface wont stop the fungi. With the pictures Sean put up of the structures that were burned but not decayed they were not living trees.

I think this guy is way behind the 8 ball, about the only thing that could be plausible here is pressure injecting around the cavity with something the equivalent of CCA. Getting the chemical into the wood is the issue, surface application, painting etc all bullshit if you have a heart wood rotter.

I'd say he's about where arboriculture was 1970's era .... but I'm all ears to be shown otherwise, I research and learn and base my opinion upon those facts, until a new bunch of facts roll in I go with what I know, but I also am continually looking for new information.

NeTree · 28th November 2009, 04:23 PM

You couldn't be more wrong.

The tree gets more nutrients with limbs removed; those limbs force water to the drip line, away from those roots. Take away all the limbs, the tree gets more water, and sunlight easily penetrates.

Eric Frei · 28th November 2009, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeTree

You couldn't be more wrong.

The tree gets more nutrients with limbs removed; those limbs force water to the drip line, away from those roots. Take away all the limbs, the tree gets more water, and sunlight easily penetrates.

Get me some proof.

Jeff Darby · 28th November 2009, 05:27 PM

This will be good ! please provide us with some data from reputable sources.

more sunlight = sunburn to the tree,lower limb removal = loss of storage of valuable resorces..but my mind is open...

JayD

Eric Frei · 28th November 2009, 05:29 PM

How well does a tree with no leaves transpire?

Bruce Hopf · 28th November 2009, 05:52 PM

Sorry guys, but this is better than watching anything on TV.
How about Photosynthesis (big fn word for this farm boy

)? If a tree has no leaves, will it be able to preform it's cycle with out them? Bruce.

Eric Frei · 28th November 2009, 06:04 PM

Of course not, and all the stuff roots get (like water and nutrient) have to be converted to sugars after being pulled up to the leaves. No leaves, no food factory.

But hey, I'm waiting for proof to show me I'm wrong.

Also roots extend beyond drip lines anyway so thinking that cutting branches off means more water penetrating the soil closer to the trunk .... well, wishful thinking. You see, soil temperature will rise, evaporation increases and whatever natural litter would also be gone. Roots do die from this type of experience.

Water tends to run down tree trunks anyway and canopies also prevent heavy rain eroding the soil, so there'd be a whole lot of things not doing the tree much good.

But I was thinking more along the lines of the odd branch being cut off anyway, not a total lop job. The entire concept of "they get nourished when pruned" is a folly. I'm sure the author might be thinking that because you prune it and see new growth or a flush come on the tree is nourished, but they're confusing nourshment with growth, and in some instances that growth comes from depleting reserves and you do see so flushes die. You cannot nourish a tree by cutting it, that is absurd reasoning.

Bruce Hopf · 28th November 2009, 06:40 PM

I've seen a lot of trees in this are, cut with no branches left, only the trunks, and the bigger branches, with no leaves. Never could understand any one's thinking of doing that practice in the first place.
Sure I do agree, with trimming a tree, to rid of branches that rub against a roof of a building, or overhang a field, or lawn, that you can't get under with a lawn mower, or even the dead tree limbs, I feel is a must, to prevent harm to person, or property. Bruce

Eric Frei · 28th November 2009, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Hopf

I've seen a lot of trees in this are, cut with no branches left, only the trunks, and the bigger branches, with no leaves.

Well, lets see some pictures.

Why are people doing that? Generally due to fear of failure and they see a stump as being safer .... anyway I'd like to see the pictures.

And are they doing it mainly where there's targets?

Bruce Hopf · 28th November 2009, 06:53 PM

I've got to start taking the camera, along with me on my outings. Every time I see a tree like a lot of trees that have been posted, I always wish I had the camera along, so I could post them, to ask questions. Thanks. Bruce.

NeTree · 29th November 2009, 01:03 AM

I was being sarcastic. I forgot to add the proper [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] brackets.

I was also thinking it was going to suck to be the guys 30-40 years down the road who have to deal with that frigging cement in the tree. (One of my biggest peeves.)

arborjockey · 29th November 2009, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayD

This will be good ! please provide us with some data from reputable sources.

more sunlight = sunburn to the tree,lower limb removal = loss of storage of valuable resorces..but my mind is open...

JayD

All true. Netree read and weep

although draining water from cavaties is helpful were freezing water swells and causes more damage. I love cutting into a tree to find concrete. The lime really helps out as it leachs into the tree

Im sure the roots store the carbs that replenish the tree so you can hack the top and be ok

Put a little wound dressing on it. and come back next year for removal

NeTree · 29th November 2009, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arborjockey

All true. Netree read and weep:

Guess you missed the humor in my post, too.

Eric Frei · 29th November 2009, 08:33 AM

Well, in that case you got me good!

arborjockey · 29th November 2009, 11:56 AM

ok ok

stirmantrees · 29th November 2009, 01:09 PM

had a feeling that everybody was on the same page on this one.

Garry Brockley · 30th November 2009, 06:54 PM

And thats why i love this place at times there were no personal attacks only hard evidence given against a perceived wrong practise.
as for concrete and steel bars to fill a tree surely thats a huge joke right! i mean these people can't surely be that far behind in their arboricultural knowledge, read any book past 1950 and you will see that is an incorrect process. i think every tree worker/climber has hit the concrete at some stage in their career and thought damn need another chain this ones stuffed.

Eric Frei · 30th November 2009, 10:00 PM

Yeah, we're talking India here where 800,000 people walk out of university a year with a degree in computing .... they can read alright but obviously not arboriculture books.

I got to write to these people ... lets see what happens.

Quote:

Please read out comment here Cavity cleaning| insert tubes| fungicide| burning as it appears your former director of horticulture at New Delhi Municipality is about 50 years behind times. Seriously, cutting parts off trees nourishes them? Common sense would have to tell you otherwise but do come and join in and get educated before you wreck more trees with your voodoo science.

Bruce Hopf · 1st December 2009, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Yeah, we're talking India here where 800,000 people walk out of university a year with a degree in computing .... they can read alright but obviously not arboriculture books.

I got to write to these people ... lets see what happens.

Thanks for the Voodoo Science. I was taking a mouth full of coffee at the same time, as I read. Coffee all over the place.

. Bruce.

27th November 2009, 06:24 PM	#2
Drouin Tree Service Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,727	Re: Cavity cleaning\| insert tubes\| fungicide\| burning I have alot of respect for what he says. __________________ Drouin Tree Services \| Excavator Hire - Drouin and SE Gippsland \| Landclearing Melbourne

27th November 2009, 07:46 PM	#3
Eric Frei Admin - Owner Palm & Tree Services in Brisbane Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,994	Re: Cavity cleaning\| insert tubes\| fungicide\| burning You serious? __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Palm and Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

27th November 2009, 08:41 PM	#4
stjawa Sappling Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Vic, Australia Posts: 39	Re: Cavity cleaning\| insert tubes\| fungicide\| burning Think of the positives Ekka especially the roadside trees.Once the jobs done you can attach the power and phone lines on the tree,then bang on a street light.

27th November 2009, 11:04 PM	#5
Voon Chin Seng Sappling Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Singapore Posts: 8	Re: Cavity cleaning\| insert tubes\| fungicide\| burning Yes, this has been practised long ago in Europe (inclusive UK). Recently a new material is used to fill the cavity and claimed it is far better and effective than using cement concrete.

28th November 2009, 07:52 AM	#6
Eric Frei Admin - Owner Palm & Tree Services in Brisbane Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,994	Re: Cavity cleaning\| insert tubes\| fungicide\| burning Do you know what the new material is? __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Palm and Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

28th November 2009, 03:50 PM	#8
NeTree Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: USA Posts: 69	Re: Cavity cleaning\| insert tubes\| fungicide\| burning You just can't make this stuff up.

28th November 2009, 04:07 PM	#9
Eric Frei Admin - Owner Palm & Tree Services in Brisbane Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,994	Re: Cavity cleaning\| insert tubes\| fungicide\| burning Like this head honcho says ..... "They get nourished when pruned" Oh really, that's interesting. I thought they got wounded and perhaps lost photosynthetic food producing resources (if section was in leaf), lost storage capacity within the piece removed and have to engage chemical defences to ward of infection from the exposed wood at the cut. But hey. What do I know. Also draining cavities, well in fact the best thing is if they stayed filled as fungi need oxygen to survive. Being filled with water would mean anaerobic conditions. Furthermore to insert the drains he drills through good wood spreading the infection. Now even in torential rain we will have a moist environment. To stop fungi you need below 20% moisture content, very hard to achieve in a living tree in an outdoor environment, hasn't been done yet. The fungi are deep within the wood, digesting cells. Fruiting bodies are not the fungi that is decaying the tree. Scraping the surface does little, the fungi are deeper. Applying fungicide, it doesn't penetrate deep enough. Biocontrol tests have shown that they dont penetrate deep enough either. We are talking about decaying cavities not fresh cut and immediately treated timbers. For the outdoor timbers of playgrounds etc they are CCA treated and are not living trees where moisture is being pumped around internally. Filling with concrete has long been known to be bullshit. Some experiements with expanding foam have shown faster closure as woundwood has something to grow over rather than just roll a rib at the door of the opening. either methods of attempting to prevent moisture entering the cavity aren't 100% fool proof. Capping over wounds and cavites has also been tried, similar problems. In colder environments expanding foam has some credibility in the sense of stopping cracking with freezing, if water ponds then freezes it can expand and crack wood. What about in a semi tropical environment like here where humidity is 90%, hard to prevent moisture/dew. Applying a fungicide via injection to the tree, no vessels to move it around in heartwood. Pressure injecting the wound area might be an option though, like a needle and pierce the heartwood, pressurized so it forces chemical into the fibres, about the only shot I see. The burning idea, I think that has to be done at the time of wounding. Burning the surface wont stop the fungi. With the pictures Sean put up of the structures that were burned but not decayed they were not living trees. I think this guy is way behind the 8 ball, about the only thing that could be plausible here is pressure injecting around the cavity with something the equivalent of CCA. Getting the chemical into the wood is the issue, surface application, painting etc all bullshit if you have a heart wood rotter. I'd say he's about where arboriculture was 1970's era .... but I'm all ears to be shown otherwise, I research and learn and base my opinion upon those facts, until a new bunch of facts roll in I go with what I know, but I also am continually looking for new information. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Palm and Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

28th November 2009, 04:23 PM	#10
NeTree Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: USA Posts: 69	Re: Cavity cleaning\| insert tubes\| fungicide\| burning You couldn't be more wrong. The tree gets more nutrients with limbs removed; those limbs force water to the drip line, away from those roots. Take away all the limbs, the tree gets more water, and sunlight easily penetrates.

28th November 2009, 05:27 PM	#12
Jeff Darby Moderator - Previously known as JayD Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: TreeWorld, Sydney Australia Posts: 2,059	Re: Cavity cleaning\| insert tubes\| fungicide\| burning This will be good ! please provide us with some data from reputable sources. more sunlight = sunburn to the tree,lower limb removal = loss of storage of valuable resorces..but my mind is open... JayD __________________ Member: Australian Tree Association Join the Australian Tree Association...Have your voice heard ! Arboriculture, A life long study for some, a passing phase for others © Jeffrey J Darby 2011

28th November 2009, 05:29 PM	#13
Eric Frei Admin - Owner Palm & Tree Services in Brisbane Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,994	Re: Cavity cleaning\| insert tubes\| fungicide\| burning How well does a tree with no leaves transpire? __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Palm and Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

28th November 2009, 05:52 PM	#14
Bruce Hopf Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: North of Sebringville, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,167	Re: Cavity cleaning\| insert tubes\| fungicide\| burning Sorry guys, but this is better than watching anything on TV. How about Photosynthesis (big fn word for this farm boy)? If a tree has no leaves, will it be able to preform it's cycle with out them? Bruce. __________________ McCulloch chain saws 1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's, 2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener, 1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver 2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10 Stihl chain saws 2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084, Strunk chain saws 1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

28th November 2009, 06:04 PM	#15
Eric Frei Admin - Owner Palm & Tree Services in Brisbane Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,994	Re: Cavity cleaning\| insert tubes\| fungicide\| burning Of course not, and all the stuff roots get (like water and nutrient) have to be converted to sugars after being pulled up to the leaves. No leaves, no food factory. But hey, I'm waiting for proof to show me I'm wrong. Also roots extend beyond drip lines anyway so thinking that cutting branches off means more water penetrating the soil closer to the trunk .... well, wishful thinking. You see, soil temperature will rise, evaporation increases and whatever natural litter would also be gone. Roots do die from this type of experience. Water tends to run down tree trunks anyway and canopies also prevent heavy rain eroding the soil, so there'd be a whole lot of things not doing the tree much good. But I was thinking more along the lines of the odd branch being cut off anyway, not a total lop job. The entire concept of "they get nourished when pruned" is a folly. I'm sure the author might be thinking that because you prune it and see new growth or a flush come on the tree is nourished, but they're confusing nourshment with growth, and in some instances that growth comes from depleting reserves and you do see so flushes die. You cannot nourish a tree by cutting it, that is absurd reasoning. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Palm and Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

28th November 2009, 06:40 PM	#16
Bruce Hopf Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: North of Sebringville, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,167	Re: Cavity cleaning\| insert tubes\| fungicide\| burning I've seen a lot of trees in this are, cut with no branches left, only the trunks, and the bigger branches, with no leaves. Never could understand any one's thinking of doing that practice in the first place. Sure I do agree, with trimming a tree, to rid of branches that rub against a roof of a building, or overhang a field, or lawn, that you can't get under with a lawn mower, or even the dead tree limbs, I feel is a must, to prevent harm to person, or property. Bruce __________________ McCulloch chain saws 1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's, 2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener, 1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver 2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10 Stihl chain saws 2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084, Strunk chain saws 1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

28th November 2009, 06:53 PM	#18
Bruce Hopf Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: North of Sebringville, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,167	Re: Cavity cleaning\| insert tubes\| fungicide\| burning I've got to start taking the camera, along with me on my outings. Every time I see a tree like a lot of trees that have been posted, I always wish I had the camera along, so I could post them, to ask questions. Thanks. Bruce. __________________ McCulloch chain saws 1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's, 2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener, 1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver 2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10 Stihl chain saws 2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084, Strunk chain saws 1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

29th November 2009, 01:03 AM	#19
NeTree Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: USA Posts: 69	Re: Cavity cleaning\| insert tubes\| fungicide\| burning I was being sarcastic. I forgot to add the proper [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] brackets. I was also thinking it was going to suck to be the guys 30-40 years down the road who have to deal with that frigging cement in the tree. (One of my biggest peeves.)

29th November 2009, 08:33 AM	#22
Eric Frei Admin - Owner Palm & Tree Services in Brisbane Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,994	Re: Cavity cleaning\| insert tubes\| fungicide\| burning Well, in that case you got me good! __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Palm and Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

29th November 2009, 11:56 AM	#23
arborjockey Mature tree Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: hawaii. ohio. oregon. california Posts: 259	Re: Cavity cleaning\| insert tubes\| fungicide\| burning ok ok

29th November 2009, 01:09 PM	#24
stirmantrees Mature tree Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: oviedo, fl Posts: 469	Re: Cavity cleaning\| insert tubes\| fungicide\| burning had a feeling that everybody was on the same page on this one.

30th November 2009, 06:54 PM	#25
Garry Brockley Bayside Tree Care Brisbane Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Brisbane Aus Posts: 1,641	Re: Cavity cleaning\| insert tubes\| fungicide\| burning And thats why i love this place at times there were no personal attacks only hard evidence given against a perceived wrong practise. as for concrete and steel bars to fill a tree surely thats a huge joke right! i mean these people can't surely be that far behind in their arboricultural knowledge, read any book past 1950 and you will see that is an incorrect process. i think every tree worker/climber has hit the concrete at some stage in their career and thought damn need another chain this ones stuffed. __________________ My business:- Brisbane Bayside Tree Care

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