Cassian Humphreys leaving stubs in Arbor Age Articles?

treeseer

well ok i'll get a ladder up the tree next time there and do that.

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Cassian Humphreys

G'day the Forum, Cassian here, I enrolled today, have studied Eric's and Sean's responses, and am inspired. Inspired that a forum is occuring. Full credit to Eric for initiating this site.

The origional draft (PDF) is attached, it was indeed a typo by the AAA, I reckon my origional is not perfectly lined up, the bottom end of the white line is out by a milimitere or so. From my perspective I see the trunk collar in the photograph and regard the union between trunk tissues verses branch tissues as visible (the tree is in my garden), as an arborist my computer graphics skills are lacking.

I whish to make the point that the though I currently work for a Utility company my background is straight Arb, I am the founder and head of the Tree Care division of Eastern Tree Service and that the Tree Culture Course (now 4 years in the making) is an Arborist's interpretation of tree lore as recorded by Shigo and Mattheck. The course is an ongoing development of mine (ours) as I represent a collective knowledge and experience base. As Sean acknowledges I am no expert, merely a student, for me comprehending the parts and processes of trees has no end.

I support Sean's perspective, as a Shigoist I believe we should scrap the concept of arriving at a trunk collar via angles and focus purley on the body of a tree, to arrive at the trunk collar via discernment of trunk and branch tissues.

I also believe that optimal location of a trunk collar has less to do with logic and more to do with tuning in to the tree.

My utter regards to all - Cassian...

Origional version of `Stub Cut' by Cassian....pdf

Cassian Humphreys

Hi Eric in response to the posting of your photoraphs of the Angophora (Corymbia?) I whish to share my perspective.

1. Based on Shigo what you describe as callus tissue is in fact wound wood. When newly generated sapwood first forms at the margins of a wound triggered by a release of stem pressure via lost growth stresses about a wound. Then loosley packed parenchyma cells are released (callus) this material differentiates into wound wood as it ages (begins to age upon contact with the environment), what we see as concentric rings of wound wood is lignified tissue not callus (which is non lignified).

2.The problem I see with the pruning cut is -
A) large limb material removed from a tree will reduce its lifespan up to the order of decades, even if it is cut to the most recently generated trunk collar.
B) Judging by the greater portion of woundwood at the sides of the wound, I see the top and bottom of the cut as being flush. This is evidenced by the formation of a seam in the wound wood at the top end of the wound where the cut was too close to the branch bark ridge. Also the wound wood is not uniform in its development akin to Shigo's dougnut (see attached)

Based on my study of Shigo and Mattheck I question the educations we have had as arborists, much of the work of the fathers of arboriculture was not
well interpreted by the educators in the Arboricultural profession.
Mostly I believe because of a lack of attention to detail, a lack of contractual experience and I believe because Shigo and Mattheck have been judged as opposed to being interpreted.

On a more humble note arboriculture like all proffessions (human endeavor) is in a state of evolution, I for one am grateful for those who have trod the path before us.

My Utter regards to all - Cassian...

Callus paterns-Wound Wood formation after pruning.pdf

Ekka

That's quite a "kink" to what Arborage printed on that pic, wonder how that happened.

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Ekka

So do doughnuts tell the truth or a lie? Afterall the planet is full of tuned in whackos too.

I like definitive fact, not philosophy, not grandeur nor fairy tales. Seems that's where arboriculture is so held up as some sweeping philisophical statement can regress factual research with distorted consensus on what is favourable or desired rather than what is real.

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ozinus

Okay Eric I pride myself on the understanding of the english language but what the hell does that mean????? The tree unit does not lie it only does and it is up to you to correctly analyize what it is trying to say. NO BULLSHIT. The interpretation of a tree is a skill and a gift!! I am sure you can see what is going on with the tree.

mdvaden

Ching - Chong - Choe - Chee - Chong - Ching

Hey, some of the latter replies almost sound Chinese !!

The main error in the first image seems to have occured by someone sliding the image out of place.

On either the image or the .pdf, what's labeled as the "top" of the branch collar is what I define as outside the branch collar. Top is top, bottom is bottom.

But Shigo's page is not what I would use. It's one area I'd improve on, because some branches angle downward on some trees, and what that pdf explains at "top" could easily be the "bottom". And that can confuse new people. And it's inaccurate based on the definition of words. So "top" equals up, and outside is outside - between trunk and tip.

Sometimes its darn hard to see the collars, so I quit using angles 20 years ago and just started to read the tree , not the angles.

There is the technical aspect of "callus" and there is also the figurative use of "callus". To say that something "callused-over" may not be equivilent to "callus".

Seems that various arborists alternate between the figurative and the literal. Either way, it's extra tissue stemming from cell division.

As far as the doughnut thing in the diagram, it makes sense to use that as an illustration of the perfect result desired. But I'm not sure if an unequal doughnut can be used as a guage of what was not cut right - not in every case. Lack or abundance of woundwood on one side or the other can be very dependant on the health and growth of the tissue on each side.

But in simple laboratory terms - it makes sense.

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ozinus

MDvaden. On so many levels I agree with you however Shigo taught me that being concise was the only way to communicate. If you talk about something that somebody can percieve 2 ways you have not effectively commmunicated. Dr Shigo would at times not let me finish a sentence unless I was clear about what I was saying and this goes for terminology. Not a dig mate just saying clarity of subject and terms is the key to a fluid conversation.

mdvaden

Shigo covered mainly the arborist aspect. He dealt primarily with pros and researchers for chit chat. Arborists must handle the homeowner chit chat aspect as well, which leaves many arborists with a much richer and more developed style and vocabulary. If some arborists are versatile and can communicate clearly with homeowners, the same arborists can have a few speech habits that carry-over a bit. That may account for part of the variation. Many hands-on arborists will use two dialects, we might say.

It also reminds me of the topping thing, that can be percieved two ways no matter what. In fact, the definition of topping may be wrong according to pure definition of words and terms.

For example, take the "indiscriminate" cutting that's been offered for definition of professional tree industry terms.

Well, most hacks I've seen, have made a decision about where to make their cuts. And to "discriminate" is to make a decision. So in probably 99% of hack pruning cuts, they are discriminating. Therefore their cuts would not be "indiscrimate".

The hacks discriminate between a cut "over here" and a cut "over there" knowing that one might make the limb fall on them, and the other cause the limb to fall away from them. Or several cuts make the tree top even all the way across, while staggered cuts will not make the tree even all the way across.

So according to a pure SINGLE definition ideal, most hacks "discrimate" and the professional arborist definitions for tree topping are at best incompletely defined.

So if the tree industry is willing to accept incomplete definitions like that, it may not be too hard to allow a few guys to maintain dialect flexibility

Hey, we could have real fun with this - look at Shigo.

Did he refer to "doughnuts"? Now are those "doughnuts"? No, they are not.

And didn't the same diagram state "broken"?

Now was that woundwood "broken"? No, it wasn't. It was not continuous.

And the other caption says "one sided" woundwood. Is that correct. No, it's not. It's disproportionate.

So the diagram based on Shigo's material in that pdf from Cassian, is literally loaded with figurative terminology.

That's partially why I referred to the "top" of the collar versus my "outside" the collar. Even if it was not intended as figurative, "top" is of neccessity figurative due to how various trees form branches.

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ozinus

What I think we must talk about here is Truth. The point is that truth and defined terms co-exist. In the above photographs the tree tells us exactly what happened. In order to describe that we as technicians require the right jargon. If Jargon is confused by someone the whole understanding can be confused. This is why Nomenclature came to be. How many ash trees are there. But are we talking about Fraxinus americana or Corymbia tessellaris or Eucalyptus ragnans or a Scoparium. Undefinable. So clarity is necessary. It matters how we talk between us or confusion may occur.

Ekka

Absolutely, I insist on nothing less.

In the link provided is 3 pictures of a cut with wound wood.

Cassian Humphreys leaving stubs in Arbor Age Articles?

The cut was right on accurate to the target at time of cutting?

True of false?

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ozinus

False
The cut penetrated both the branch bark ridge and the parent stem this is shown by the kidney shaped rolls of wound wood. This cut was innacurate and the tree tells us so.

mdvaden

I don't believe that's correct - not for certain. Still worth considering, but probably not conclusive.

Unless I could see a photo from the day of the work, I'd suspect it's possible that there was damage up near that bark ridge. So it's hard to know for a fact.

The shape is not a guarantee of what the cut was like. The shape may be closer to telling us how the tree was capable of responding.

But I've pruned limbs off before, where the tissue was not healthy or developed right just above the cut. Or to one side or the other. Especially with tight narrow unions. But I've seen defects or damage to U-shape unions prior to a cut as well.

Humphey's stated something that may be relevant, and may be irrelevant. Removal of a branch will not for a fact reduce a lifespan by decades. It "may" reduce the lifespan, with the exception that a limb NEEDS to be removed.

I've seen limbs that are irrepairable, and if they were not removed, the lifespan may be reduced.

Also, tree wounds do not tell all the story. They sometimes tell part of the story. They basically tell as much as they can tell. For example, one story that wound can tell us, is that the cut was at least a certain size, and that tissue was living on both sides of it.

Actually, the shapes and marks there, lead me to introduce one other possibility. That the limb removed was NOT a limb. It could have been TWO limbs merging at that point. If that's the case, it would explain a small shape on the tree above the wound, that I seem to recall seeing when a doubled branch divides off from the main stem. And maybe is should not have been removed, but without seeing it, I can't say yeah or nay.

The bark on that tree is really nifty.

Reminds me so much of our Madrone / Arbutus

Oh yeah, one other thing. I find that small and medium branches along a trunk, extending at 90 degrees (level) tend to provide a more picture-perfect "doughnut" worthy of an illustration, than many other branches and stems arranged at angles, and especially ones near crotches / unions.

Take a look at the pdf again. Notice how the really nice doughnuts seem to be from what were 90 degree attachments? That's what I'd choose for my picture perfect album and brochure examples - pick the 90 degree ones, not the upward angled limb cuts.

I defy most aborists to experience the same picture-perfect super-doughnut results with abundant consistency for a legion of angled attachment cuts.

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Cassian Humphreys

Gents, one thing we can all agree is that arboriculture and us are still on the first rung of the ladder.

Ekka challanges intelligence beyond logic, truth as I see it is if we relied purely on that we would still be stuck in the birth canal.
I see two fundamental types of intelligence logic and instinct - with discernment (logic) we use learnt information which has its place and can help us to quantify that which instinct tells us (What I love about Mattheck's VTA is the system activley cultivates both).

With Instinct we can see the whole story in the twink of an eye, logic to me has a place, but is purley a means to measure, is therefore linear and lacks depth. Instinct however takes us to the heart of the matter, the obstruction is judgment (as opposed to discernment) which is defined by logic.
Logic is a tool which we must learn to master.

Shigo told us to touch trees, I believe he meant for us to do so with body (logic) and soul (instinct). When we collectively start to do that we may just find ouselves in the midst of a major accelaration and find we have little use fo a ladder.

I always fancied wings....

Cassian..........

PS - My quote was actually quite logical...