Cassian Humphreys leaving stubs in Arbor Age Articles?

ozinus

Okay Eric I pride myself on the understanding of the english language but what the hell does that mean????? The tree unit does not lie it only does and it is up to you to correctly analyize what it is trying to say. NO BULLSHIT. The interpretation of a tree is a skill and a gift!! I am sure you can see what is going on with the tree.

mdvaden

Ching - Chong - Choe - Chee - Chong - Ching

Hey, some of the latter replies almost sound Chinese !!

The main error in the first image seems to have occured by someone sliding the image out of place.

On either the image or the .pdf, what's labeled as the "top" of the branch collar is what I define as outside the branch collar. Top is top, bottom is bottom.

But Shigo's page is not what I would use. It's one area I'd improve on, because some branches angle downward on some trees, and what that pdf explains at "top" could easily be the "bottom". And that can confuse new people. And it's inaccurate based on the definition of words. So "top" equals up, and outside is outside - between trunk and tip.

Sometimes its darn hard to see the collars, so I quit using angles 20 years ago and just started to read the tree , not the angles.

There is the technical aspect of "callus" and there is also the figurative use of "callus". To say that something "callused-over" may not be equivilent to "callus".

Seems that various arborists alternate between the figurative and the literal. Either way, it's extra tissue stemming from cell division.

As far as the doughnut thing in the diagram, it makes sense to use that as an illustration of the perfect result desired. But I'm not sure if an unequal doughnut can be used as a guage of what was not cut right - not in every case. Lack or abundance of woundwood on one side or the other can be very dependant on the health and growth of the tissue on each side.

But in simple laboratory terms - it makes sense.

ozinus

MDvaden. On so many levels I agree with you however Shigo taught me that being concise was the only way to communicate. If you talk about something that somebody can percieve 2 ways you have not effectively commmunicated. Dr Shigo would at times not let me finish a sentence unless I was clear about what I was saying and this goes for terminology. Not a dig mate just saying clarity of subject and terms is the key to a fluid conversation.

mdvaden

Shigo covered mainly the arborist aspect. He dealt primarily with pros and researchers for chit chat. Arborists must handle the homeowner chit chat aspect as well, which leaves many arborists with a much richer and more developed style and vocabulary. If some arborists are versatile and can communicate clearly with homeowners, the same arborists can have a few speech habits that carry-over a bit. That may account for part of the variation. Many hands-on arborists will use two dialects, we might say.

It also reminds me of the topping thing, that can be percieved two ways no matter what. In fact, the definition of topping may be wrong according to pure definition of words and terms.

For example, take the "indiscriminate" cutting that's been offered for definition of professional tree industry terms.

Well, most hacks I've seen, have made a decision about where to make their cuts. And to "discriminate" is to make a decision. So in probably 99% of hack pruning cuts, they are discriminating. Therefore their cuts would not be "indiscrimate".

The hacks discriminate between a cut "over here" and a cut "over there" knowing that one might make the limb fall on them, and the other cause the limb to fall away from them. Or several cuts make the tree top even all the way across, while staggered cuts will not make the tree even all the way across.

So according to a pure SINGLE definition ideal, most hacks "discrimate" and the professional arborist definitions for tree topping are at best incompletely defined.

So if the tree industry is willing to accept incomplete definitions like that, it may not be too hard to allow a few guys to maintain dialect flexibility

Hey, we could have real fun with this - look at Shigo.

Did he refer to "doughnuts"? Now are those "doughnuts"? No, they are not.

And didn't the same diagram state "broken"?

Now was that woundwood "broken"? No, it wasn't. It was not continuous.

And the other caption says "one sided" woundwood. Is that correct. No, it's not. It's disproportionate.

So the diagram based on Shigo's material in that pdf from Cassian, is literally loaded with figurative terminology.

That's partially why I referred to the "top" of the collar versus my "outside" the collar. Even if it was not intended as figurative, "top" is of neccessity figurative due to how various trees form branches.

ozinus

What I think we must talk about here is Truth. The point is that truth and defined terms co-exist. In the above photographs the tree tells us exactly what happened. In order to describe that we as technicians require the right jargon. If Jargon is confused by someone the whole understanding can be confused. This is why Nomenclature came to be. How many ash trees are there. But are we talking about Fraxinus americana or Corymbia tessellaris or Eucalyptus ragnans or a Scoparium. Undefinable. So clarity is necessary. It matters how we talk between us or confusion may occur.

Ekka

Absolutely, I insist on nothing less.

In the link provided is 3 pictures of a cut with wound wood.

Cassian Humphreys leaving stubs in Arbor Age Articles?

The cut was right on accurate to the target at time of cutting?

True of false?

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ozinus

False
The cut penetrated both the branch bark ridge and the parent stem this is shown by the kidney shaped rolls of wound wood. This cut was innacurate and the tree tells us so.

mdvaden

I don't believe that's correct - not for certain. Still worth considering, but probably not conclusive.

Unless I could see a photo from the day of the work, I'd suspect it's possible that there was damage up near that bark ridge. So it's hard to know for a fact.

The shape is not a guarantee of what the cut was like. The shape may be closer to telling us how the tree was capable of responding.

But I've pruned limbs off before, where the tissue was not healthy or developed right just above the cut. Or to one side or the other. Especially with tight narrow unions. But I've seen defects or damage to U-shape unions prior to a cut as well.

Humphey's stated something that may be relevant, and may be irrelevant. Removal of a branch will not for a fact reduce a lifespan by decades. It "may" reduce the lifespan, with the exception that a limb NEEDS to be removed.

I've seen limbs that are irrepairable, and if they were not removed, the lifespan may be reduced.

Also, tree wounds do not tell all the story. They sometimes tell part of the story. They basically tell as much as they can tell. For example, one story that wound can tell us, is that the cut was at least a certain size, and that tissue was living on both sides of it.

Actually, the shapes and marks there, lead me to introduce one other possibility. That the limb removed was NOT a limb. It could have been TWO limbs merging at that point. If that's the case, it would explain a small shape on the tree above the wound, that I seem to recall seeing when a doubled branch divides off from the main stem. And maybe is should not have been removed, but without seeing it, I can't say yeah or nay.

The bark on that tree is really nifty.

Reminds me so much of our Madrone / Arbutus

Oh yeah, one other thing. I find that small and medium branches along a trunk, extending at 90 degrees (level) tend to provide a more picture-perfect "doughnut" worthy of an illustration, than many other branches and stems arranged at angles, and especially ones near crotches / unions.

Take a look at the pdf again. Notice how the really nice doughnuts seem to be from what were 90 degree attachments? That's what I'd choose for my picture perfect album and brochure examples - pick the 90 degree ones, not the upward angled limb cuts.

I defy most aborists to experience the same picture-perfect super-doughnut results with abundant consistency for a legion of angled attachment cuts.

Cassian Humphreys

Gents, one thing we can all agree is that arboriculture and us are still on the first rung of the ladder.

Ekka challanges intelligence beyond logic, truth as I see it is if we relied purely on that we would still be stuck in the birth canal.
I see two fundamental types of intelligence logic and instinct - with discernment (logic) we use learnt information which has its place and can help us to quantify that which instinct tells us (What I love about Mattheck's VTA is the system activley cultivates both).

With Instinct we can see the whole story in the twink of an eye, logic to me has a place, but is purley a means to measure, is therefore linear and lacks depth. Instinct however takes us to the heart of the matter, the obstruction is judgment (as opposed to discernment) which is defined by logic.
Logic is a tool which we must learn to master.

Shigo told us to touch trees, I believe he meant for us to do so with body (logic) and soul (instinct). When we collectively start to do that we may just find ouselves in the midst of a major accelaration and find we have little use fo a ladder.

I always fancied wings....

Cassian..........

PS - My quote was actually quite logical...

Therrin

Cassian,

if you're the founder and head of the Tree Care division of Eastern Tree Service, ..... why are you working for a Utility company? Perhaps it is because you heading up the tree care division of Easter Tree Service wasn't actually paying the bills, so you had to go find something that would?
Hey, if that's not the case.... that's cool. But why are you working for a Utility if you've got that super great spot as a mover and shaker of a private enterprise?

Secondly, you suggest "tuning into the tree", instead of logic.
Wouldn't you say that you'd need to use a certain amount of logic in order to "tune into the tree"? Those two things pretty much go hand in hand don't they? So why ignore one in order to propitiate the other?

ozinus

not worth it.

treeseer

Gotta agree with Therrin here. It may be useful to talk about both faculties separately, up to a point. However, they are always interactive and intertwined.

I think the "collar" talk gets confusing when we think of it as a singularly definable entity. Read page 86 of Modern Arboriculture for Shigo's observation of the huge variability in tree anatomy that creates a huge variability in how trees react to cuts.

Our work with trees is like the formation of branch collars. Logic and instinct are like branch tissue and stem tissue, one growing out a ways, then is overlapped by the other, consolidating the gain, and so forth.

Howzat for a metaphor?

Cmon ozinus, let's not get derailed here.

mdvaden

Basically, I agree with you and Therrin, both, to a certain degree.

One of the best examples I can think of, where similar to "feeling" takes over from logic is plant ID.

For example, I can tell a Japanese maple from a vine maple any day, almost intantaneously, and often from a hundred or more feet away.

Why... I can barely explain. I was taught facts and ID tips in college to figure it out logically and factually with the mind. But after some years, I began to RECOGNIZE them, just like people.

When I was in middle school, I eventually knew the names of, and recognized over 300 students after about 8 years of graduation from grade to grade. But if you asked me to describe them, I couldn't tell you the color of their eyes, the shape of their face or the length of their neck.

That was a transition from logic to mostly "feel". Basically where experience has etched something into the chemistry of the mind, where the chemistry of the mind replaced decision making.

Currently, I can ID as many trees or more than when I was in college. But in college, I remembered many more facts about identification. Back then, it seems like I could have been more logical about identification - even limited to logic.

newguy18

wow in that article that is most definatly a stub and ekka's mark is spot on or at least where i'd cut back to.is that magazine world wide or just in oz?

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Ekka

Logical conclusion to wound wood formation? Maybe, but if the diagram is 100% gospel truth then why was everyone flush cutting?

Because flush cuts rapidly grew wound wood giving a false impression of better of compartmentalization.

Source:Ventura County Pruning Small Trees and Shrubs - Environmental Horticulture - Landscape - Ventura County

Pics below.

Source: http://extension.usu.edu/files/natrpubs/ff004.pdf


Arboriculture and care of trees has progressed greatly with logic. Instinct has applied some of the greatest abominations of arborist work, filling trees with wire and concrete, painting wounds, flush cutting, topping are all intuitive management practices.

Instinct is formed with experience and knowledge, it is simply the conclusion or idea taken without the conscious thought pattern applied by logic. The more you work with trees, the more facts you learn, the more you separate fact from fiction the more instinctive you become ... which simply means the more "tuned in" you are without having to sit down and think about it.

The trouble with instinct is it has no checks and balances and is widely varied amongst different people. It is no 100% reliable resource and is something people interpret from their experiences and education at a subconscious level.

They say when a young child looks at the stars on a dark yet clear night and sees the twinkling etc that the child will never view them like that again once the traditional imprint of education tells them what the constellations are and their shapes. Their mind was fused with a pattern and whenever they now look at the stars they cant help but see the Big Dipper, Southern Cross etc. Instinct or logic? Both go hand in hand, instinct is simply the recognition of experiences and logic at a subconscious level without you really having to sit down and think about it.

For the greater part I would say Mattheck's work is predominantly logical, he is an engineer and applying what is now perhaps instinctive in engineering practices to trees, hence the Body Language of Trees.

He is not without challenge though, I do believe Brudi's pull tests are a bone of contention.

Attached Images

	woundwood.JPG (51.0 KB, 81 views)
	flushcutvscollarcut-1.jpg (54.7 KB, 81 views)

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newguy18

great post ekka.

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treeseer

Yes, there is quite a bit of debate about the axiom of uniform stress as well. A healthy flow of ideas. We are hosting neville fay and philip van w, a bruddiite from canada, june 16. We are working on getting erk here too; his presentations on preserving big old trees are excellent.

On a related topic, apologies for the lack of pictures in the heading cut article in arbor age. my oversight; i'm working on correcting that for the next issue. the goal is to advance this whole node-collar-bpz-natural target thing. Eric, I may be looking for some tech help on posting a vid here too.

o and newguy yes the mag is australia only. like the usa mags, very few working arborists submit articles there. Which is a shame.

Ekka

Guy, if you need a hand just ask, if you need to send me a large file this service is pretty good. Just email it.

YouSendIt - Send large files - transfer delivery - FTP Replacement

Also I have provided a link to an attachment where a Mattheck theory is challenged.

http://www.treeworld.info/attachment...1&d=1195968249

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Cassian Humphreys

Hi Ken, the reason I integrated a Tree Care perspective (division) into a utility company is because of my desire to accelerate tree care operations with the support of a large business. I am strong in Tree Care but weak in Business, I have a symbiotic relationship with my company ? it gains from having a tree carer as a manager and I gain from developing a business mind. I am very fortunate to be surrounded by good business men and they are fortunate to have a man that knows the product ? the Tree.
Thanks to ETS I gain the support and time to develop the Tree Culture Course, accelerate my knowledge base and methodology, help raise the bar on work standards and have fun in the process. In the big picture my company will gain by having commited to a tree care division...

With regard point 2) ? As I stated in my previous posting I see logic and instinct as integral ingredients, Shigo said the modern arborist must have mind and muscle, I believe that a balanced arborist develops the muscle, and balances the mind with logic and instinct as one.

Best regards Cassian?

treeseer

Thanks Eric, I like those graphics, capturing the SIA approach so succinctly. It brings reason into the whole question of reduction cuts as life extension, a "veteranising" treatment for declining trees. Also nice change to the Latin saying!

Cassian, yes, mind and muscle together. I also like referring to Shigo and his aphorisms; my favorite one was when he told us not to believe what he said, but to go out and learn it ourselves. I don't see him as the founder or father of arboriculture, just one standout in a line of giants on whose shoulders we perch.

dguntertrees

" The Brush and the Sword are fundamentally connected"

Where is this better illustrated than in the form of a good climbing Arborist?

As for crossing over between Utility tree work and Tree Care....

Surely they should be the same thing?

I know that when I worked in utility tree work, introducing Shigo et al to the boys was one of the best things that could have happened to them. They actually felt that they were contributing to retaining trees, rather than simply devouring them. There are heaps of good people out there, some simply need to be released from the corporate mentality that they have become institutionalized into, others are already working from the inside to try to bring about changes...its all about bringing those like minded people together.

And thats why Ekka's done such a good thing here, as has Cassian with his Tree Culture Course.

As have you all by contributing to these discussions.

GROUP HUG EVERYONE?

Dave

Therrin

Cassian,

Thanks for the great response! I can understand exactly where you're coming from. We have something called the Score program here, which is mostly retired and some young businessmen who volunteer their time to do seminars and meet with people about the running of a business. It's an awesome resource, but I can also see your reasoning about working with the Utility.

For the other stuff, whoa...that's pretty deep. It's zen-tree stuff. Zen-tree group hug stuff... hmm.

treeseer

restoration of storm-damaged trees--i just got the goahead to prune the sprouts on a tree that was headed back after the 2001 ice storm. Like the one in the picture but WAY more crown loss. Working on the clock so I will have time to take core samples, pics, measurements, you name it.

Gonna be fun, and hopefully enough data to sway the aussie skeptic.

Attached Images

Tree Pruning 002.jpg (809.2 KB, 11 views)

newguy18

ice storm.where in the se are you?

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treeseer

Central NC, per the attached.

Attached Files

selective.pdf (1.64 MB, 27 views)

newguy18

good read Guy.

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Cassian Humphreys

Maybe well need a new thread.......

AAA Correctively pruned Stub Cut.....doc



Regards to all Cass........

Ekka

Well that's about as clear cut as you'll ever get, perhaps have Kurt re-run that pic.

It does look like a collarless union but no before shot so cant say 100%.

I pilfered it and embedded it. By collarless union it means the angle of the cut is a mirror to the angle of the BBR to the stem.

Attached Images

cassiancut.JPG (85.6 KB, 50 views)

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treeseer

attached

Attached Images

codom cut painted.jpg (78.3 KB, 15 views)

Ekka

Well done Guy, it's about where I put the red line in the first post but was waiting for others. I did say it had to be more acute at the bottom but that pic was tiny.

There's an ever so slight swelling there if one looks closely.

I have noticed many trees or branch unions have that, a type of blend of collar and collarless, doesn't have the usual pronounced bulging collar but when closely inspected there's a definate swelling there. A good eye spots it.

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