but what about those guys? OHS| OSH issues

treevet · 25th April 2008, 07:53 PM

We got the safety guys or shiny asses (Ekka quote) all up our asses all the time but......what about those guys.

Watched these 2 guys maybe couple hundred feet up in the air with no safety attachments whatsoever climbing around the scaffolding.

Last week I watched 4 guys walking around four stories up and above a sunken concrete drive climbing around on a roof with plywood under an arm on a very sharp angle roof with no safety line at all. Chimney sweeps, third story painters also on high roofs with no safety restraints every day.

Any of you guys notice this? Anyone think we are being beat to death by desk jockies and retired types spewing legislation to make our job more tedious and uncomfortable because they never did it or do not do it anymore if they ever did it with any competence anyway? Why they zoned in on us?

Sean Freeman · 25th April 2008, 08:16 PM

Its really not like that here anymore...back in 88' when I came out here, was amazed at the lack of OH&S control over what was done at work.

..all jobs all professions..in Nth Queensland anyway.....even in the mid to late 90's AFTER the WH&S Act was passed (94), still saw plumbers and builders, riggers and scaffolders up without fall protection, edge protection, hard hats etc...

Not any more....sure there are still crap businesses with scum that don't care about their workers..like the mob K&M in the other thread running...but they are very few and far between and they are very quickly shut down and heavily fined or jailed.

.(thats what made me laugh about their high and mighty attitude....not wasting any more of my time on the trolls..I know whats waiting for them if they enter court

)

It makes me very sad inside when I see guys working on the job (no matter what the job is) unsafely, its not necessary, its wrong and its illegal. (In Oz) Ignorance of the letter of the law is no defence in this situation...the persons envolved and the owner will be prosecuted. There are a number of very good companies running "mock trials" to make it perfectly clear what would face you if you break this particular bit of Statute Law (in Oz).

Therrin · 25th April 2008, 08:29 PM

Probably because alot of those guys are still only making low wages at what they do, and OH&S knows if they come after the tree people that they'll get more money out of it to line their pockets with.

treevet · 25th April 2008, 08:39 PM

OSHA is famous for locking onto an individual or entity and not letting go until the death is nearly wrung out of it.

Pictures are the other end of the spectrum. I ve been watching this crew all week as it is around the corner from my house. Guy on the side of the tower got there by going hand over hand to get to that spot unsecured. Neither of the other 2 on top are secured. Last week a guy fell off a similar water tower and died. They all look Mexican and likely are working for peanuts.

blair duncanson · 26th April 2008, 06:35 AM

Back in Scotland, health and safety attempt to have their fingers on every business. Think main reason for them focusing on our line of work was that statistically there had been too many injuries, mainly involving untrained personel. Think its good, although sometimes annoying but if people are trained from the start with safety being paramount, well it just becomes part of the job and you charge accordingly. Its the folks that have never had any training that find it most difficult to change their ways. I am sure many of them are competent at what they do and are probably far superior than many of us at aspects of the job but i think we must strive to educate them, we do not want them becoming another statistic!

newguy18 · 26th April 2008, 07:55 AM

I agree,its because we're in the second most dangerous job on the planet.I don't see any osha people going after crab fisherman though.

Ekka · 26th April 2008, 03:48 PM

OK, here's a scoop, I got this anonymously and once again the people affected dont want to speak up about it.

Why?

Because of fear of losing their contracts.

Typical bullshit from typical shiny asses.

Months ago a Victorian tree worker fell coz it appears he didn't tie his termination knot correctly.

So, in come the new rules as shown here.

An extra long tail with back biner so if your knot comes undone you'll be OK.

Please note, the line in this instance had a spliced eye, so in this example we have EXTREME DUMBING it down as climbers with eye spliced terminations now have to tie a knot and the spliced eye becomes the "back up".

This is the sort of BULLSHIT that the industry brings onto itself. Not by OHS govt reg!!!!

So, what I find absolutely insulting is that I trained, tie knots correctly (and what sort of idiot cant tie a figure 8 knot) and for the better part do things safely and correctly yet when an isolated incident occurs that all means tough luck and do this procedure.

So the industry self inflicts a LOT OF IT'S OWN BULLSHIT.

The people that do this, make these adjustments to their own codes (such as power line trimming) do it to show OHS some brownie points system that they did something and re-evaluated their safety procedures. Why? Oh because some-one didn't clip in right, didn't tie in right and you cant just say ... 100% human error and not get fined and interrogated IMHO.

So what next, two biners with opposing gates, dont laugh, it wont be that far off the way things are going.

treevet · 26th April 2008, 04:30 PM

I agree it is sometimes the industry initiating these things. Recently I observed an employee hydraulic root fertilizing trees in 82 degree weather wearing chaps, long sleeves with colored vest, heavy gloves, hard hat, with ear muffs down and face shield down and safety glasses. He had to break every 10 injections because of pouring swear into glasses.

Company must have policy that these ppe items be worn every minute of standing on job site no matter what is being done. Maybe this is the only way they can assure compliance if they aren't being baby sat.

Ekka · 26th April 2008, 05:03 PM

1/ Why chaps, he's not running a saw?

2/ Why a vest when there's fluro moisture control shirts

3/ With all gloves your hands sweat in that heat, that's a tough one to fix.

4/ Why a helmet, if there's nothing over head, however mandatory on building sites even when there's nothing there! Could have a face shield without the helmet and switch muffs to plugs.

---------------------------

Could be argued he should have a chem suit on, even disposable overalls with respirator etc.

They say dont leave pets and kids in cars when the heat is on. Temperature rises rapidly. I wonder if any tests have been made what the temperature rises to in that little place between your scalp and the helmet. It's hot here most of the time, this years summer was the coolest I can remember ever. But I know before I even get near a tree with all the gear on sweat is pissing out of you, then comes other problems like dehydration, headaches and cramp. It's an art working in the heat and knocks people around big time.

treevet · 26th April 2008, 09:01 PM

I agree. You know any instances of "selective indignation" always suck.

If you look again at those pictures you can see that they have set up giant tarps that they are to drop down the framework of those ropes. They will spray within those tarps so the public is not at risk of fume inhalation. Does not this subject the workers that were solicited by the city to more risk of exposure no matter what they are wearing. Also I am guessing the job is a lot more dangerous painting on moving supports while in a space suit (if they wear anything).

treevet · 2nd May 2008, 03:51 PM

Let me put this another way. Does anyone else think that a green man (new to business) should be wrapped in bulletproof chainsaw chain anti penetrating duct tape with a full helmet, neck protector, kevlar/chainlink protective arm covers and gloves and chaps and boots and vest, and then.........

Over time and job capable tested increments be allowed to remove more and more of this gear/covering (to a point) as they pass and are able to function as a top level arborist? The same goes for climbing gear and technique restrictions/permissions.

Why do safety laws have to be one size fits all?

Does anyone (like me) feel that a top of the food chain arborist that is self employed and fully insured and experienced beyond comparison, should be able to stand on one foot on a chair that is balanced on one leg on a 70 foot spar and juggle chainsaws that the throttle is taped open ......if they so choose?

Why is the safety gestapo so zeroed into us and is all this gear that is being legislated mandatory really safe or does it become unsafe as mentioned in heat or awkwardness of movement? When/how does it stop. Welfare/foodstamps were a good idea, but the momentum just takes it beyond a good state to a negative one by nature.

treevet · 2nd May 2008, 06:10 PM

One last thought and I'll let this thread sink into oblivion.

I'll draw an analogy: You've got 2 guys standing side by side ready to take a long motorcycle ride. One guy is heavy and old and has no helmet, no armored jacket, no gloves, no face mask, no boots. The other guy is thin and sleek looking, has a full, under the chin helmet, full armor jacket, armor pants attached, heavy gloves, kevlar boots, the whole works.

The heavy guy gets on his Harley, hits the highway and cruises up to the 60 mph speed limit. The full gear guy gets on his GSX R1000 kicks it in the ass and goes into a wide sweeper at about 130 mph with his inside knee scraping the pavement.

Who is in the "best practices" gear. Who is the safest?

Ekka · 2nd May 2008, 06:42 PM

I think you need to watch the video in this thread.

Shiny ass hits the pavement - Tree World

treevet · 2nd May 2008, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

I think you need to watch the video in this thread.

Shiny ass hits the pavement - Tree World

Looked like, going down the hill, shiny ass needed to learn a lesson. Sounded like he learned that lesson.

Man, I couldn't avoid watching this shiny ass yuppy tree company all week on my street because I have to go by there all the time. I want to

I'm over it now. I promise.

Therrin · 2nd May 2008, 10:00 PM

Hey Ekka, who's the old guy with the gut in the photo you posted??

And TreeVet, yeah I agree. Ya know, in Illinois, ya don't even gotta wear a helmet when you ride. I never got used to seeing guys go zipping by on their GSXR's without one. <shudders> I think anyone who's been down know's better, and anyone who's going down will change their habits afterwards.

So you can ride a motorcycle in IL with no helmet, but gotta wear one when working with trees or construction. Hmmm.....

25th April 2008, 08:16 PM	#2 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,521	Re: but what about those guys? Its really not like that here anymore...back in 88' when I came out here, was amazed at the lack of OH&S control over what was done at work...all jobs all professions..in Nth Queensland anyway.....even in the mid to late 90's AFTER the WH&S Act was passed (94), still saw plumbers and builders, riggers and scaffolders up without fall protection, edge protection, hard hats etc... Not any more....sure there are still crap businesses with scum that don't care about their workers..like the mob K&M in the other thread running...but they are very few and far between and they are very quickly shut down and heavily fined or jailed..(thats what made me laugh about their high and mighty attitude....not wasting any more of my time on the trolls..I know whats waiting for them if they enter court) It makes me very sad inside when I see guys working on the job (no matter what the job is) unsafely, its not necessary, its wrong and its illegal. (In Oz) Ignorance of the letter of the law is no defence in this situation...the persons envolved and the owner will be prosecuted. There are a number of very good companies running "mock trials" to make it perfectly clear what would face you if you break this particular bit of Statute Law (in Oz). __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

25th April 2008, 08:29 PM	#3 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,112	Re: but what about those guys? Probably because alot of those guys are still only making low wages at what they do, and OH&S knows if they come after the tree people that they'll get more money out of it to line their pockets with. __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

25th April 2008, 08:39 PM	#4 (permalink)
treevet Astronaut Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati Posts: 598	Re: but what about those guys? OSHA is famous for locking onto an individual or entity and not letting go until the death is nearly wrung out of it. Pictures are the other end of the spectrum. I ve been watching this crew all week as it is around the corner from my house. Guy on the side of the tower got there by going hand over hand to get to that spot unsecured. Neither of the other 2 on top are secured. Last week a guy fell off a similar water tower and died. They all look Mexican and likely are working for peanuts.

26th April 2008, 06:35 AM	#5 (permalink)
blair duncanson Cruisin' Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: argyll Posts: 70	Re: but what about those guys? Back in Scotland, health and safety attempt to have their fingers on every business. Think main reason for them focusing on our line of work was that statistically there had been too many injuries, mainly involving untrained personel. Think its good, although sometimes annoying but if people are trained from the start with safety being paramount, well it just becomes part of the job and you charge accordingly. Its the folks that have never had any training that find it most difficult to change their ways. I am sure many of them are competent at what they do and are probably far superior than many of us at aspects of the job but i think we must strive to educate them, we do not want them becoming another statistic!

26th April 2008, 07:55 AM	#6 (permalink)
newguy18 Tree World Icon Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,185	Re: but what about those guys? I agree,its because we're in the second most dangerous job on the planet.I don't see any osha people going after crab fisherman though. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

26th April 2008, 04:30 PM	#8 (permalink)
treevet Astronaut Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati Posts: 598	Re: but what about those guys? OHS\| OSH issues I agree it is sometimes the industry initiating these things. Recently I observed an employee hydraulic root fertilizing trees in 82 degree weather wearing chaps, long sleeves with colored vest, heavy gloves, hard hat, with ear muffs down and face shield down and safety glasses. He had to break every 10 injections because of pouring swear into glasses. Company must have policy that these ppe items be worn every minute of standing on job site no matter what is being done. Maybe this is the only way they can assure compliance if they aren't being baby sat.

26th April 2008, 05:03 PM	#9 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,664	Re: but what about those guys? OHS\| OSH issues 1/ Why chaps, he's not running a saw? 2/ Why a vest when there's fluro moisture control shirts 3/ With all gloves your hands sweat in that heat, that's a tough one to fix. 4/ Why a helmet, if there's nothing over head, however mandatory on building sites even when there's nothing there! Could have a face shield without the helmet and switch muffs to plugs. --------------------------- Could be argued he should have a chem suit on, even disposable overalls with respirator etc. They say dont leave pets and kids in cars when the heat is on. Temperature rises rapidly. I wonder if any tests have been made what the temperature rises to in that little place between your scalp and the helmet. It's hot here most of the time, this years summer was the coolest I can remember ever. But I know before I even get near a tree with all the gear on sweat is pissing out of you, then comes other problems like dehydration, headaches and cramp. It's an art working in the heat and knocks people around big time. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

26th April 2008, 09:01 PM	#10 (permalink)
treevet Astronaut Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati Posts: 598	Re: but what about those guys? OHS\| OSH issues I agree. You know any instances of "selective indignation" always suck. If you look again at those pictures you can see that they have set up giant tarps that they are to drop down the framework of those ropes. They will spray within those tarps so the public is not at risk of fume inhalation. Does not this subject the workers that were solicited by the city to more risk of exposure no matter what they are wearing. Also I am guessing the job is a lot more dangerous painting on moving supports while in a space suit (if they wear anything).

2nd May 2008, 03:51 PM	#11 (permalink)
treevet Astronaut Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati Posts: 598	Re: but what about those guys? OHS\| OSH issues Let me put this another way. Does anyone else think that a green man (new to business) should be wrapped in bulletproof chainsaw chain anti penetrating duct tape with a full helmet, neck protector, kevlar/chainlink protective arm covers and gloves and chaps and boots and vest, and then......... Over time and job capable tested increments be allowed to remove more and more of this gear/covering (to a point) as they pass and are able to function as a top level arborist? The same goes for climbing gear and technique restrictions/permissions. Why do safety laws have to be one size fits all? Does anyone (like me) feel that a top of the food chain arborist that is self employed and fully insured and experienced beyond comparison, should be able to stand on one foot on a chair that is balanced on one leg on a 70 foot spar and juggle chainsaws that the throttle is taped open ......if they so choose? Why is the safety gestapo so zeroed into us and is all this gear that is being legislated mandatory really safe or does it become unsafe as mentioned in heat or awkwardness of movement? When/how does it stop. Welfare/foodstamps were a good idea, but the momentum just takes it beyond a good state to a negative one by nature.

2nd May 2008, 06:10 PM	#12 (permalink)
treevet Astronaut Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati Posts: 598	Re: but what about those guys? OHS\| OSH issues One last thought and I'll let this thread sink into oblivion. I'll draw an analogy: You've got 2 guys standing side by side ready to take a long motorcycle ride. One guy is heavy and old and has no helmet, no armored jacket, no gloves, no face mask, no boots. The other guy is thin and sleek looking, has a full, under the chin helmet, full armor jacket, armor pants attached, heavy gloves, kevlar boots, the whole works. The heavy guy gets on his Harley, hits the highway and cruises up to the 60 mph speed limit. The full gear guy gets on his GSX R1000 kicks it in the ass and goes into a wide sweeper at about 130 mph with his inside knee scraping the pavement. Who is in the "best practices" gear. Who is the safest?

2nd May 2008, 06:42 PM	#13 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,664	Re: but what about those guys? OHS\| OSH issues I think you need to watch the video in this thread. Shiny ass hits the pavement - Tree World __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

2nd May 2008, 10:00 PM	#15 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,112	Re: but what about those guys? OHS\| OSH issues Hey Ekka, who's the old guy with the gut in the photo you posted?? And TreeVet, yeah I agree. Ya know, in Illinois, ya don't even gotta wear a helmet when you ride. I never got used to seeing guys go zipping by on their GSXR's without one. <shudders> I think anyone who's been down know's better, and anyone who's going down will change their habits afterwards. So you can ride a motorcycle in IL with no helmet, but gotta wear one when working with trees or construction. Hmmm..... __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

3rd May 2008, 12:44 AM	#16 (permalink)