Box or Square Scarf - Notch

Eric Frei

I've drawn a diagram of this, I recall seeing it somewhere.

Does anyone know anything about it?

I've searched but come up with blanks, I know it was a legitimate notch but cannot find anything on it.

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Treelore

Never seen that in application. I can see it jumping a little from base of tree not sure why this would benefit. Gonna be harder to control because it will act more like a snap cut than a hinge. Why do you want to know about it??

Therrin

Considering how much more difficult it would be to cut correctly, what would be the benefit of using a box notch like this?
Are there any?

I agree with Treelore, looks like the leading top edge on that notch could knee right down into the lower and kick it up.

Eric Frei

Depending how wide you cut it just like a normal notch it shouldn't jump anymore.

As far as snap cut goes the hinge works no different to a Humboldt.

Just seen it around, want to know the history of it.

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Therrin

Wouldn't you have to cut the first two level, and then plunge to box it out? Sounds like more stress and wear for the tip of your bar if ya used these box cuts much.


Anyhow, what are the benefits to box cutting it?

TrevMcRev

Box scarf. I've done it. Have some photos of the stump but will have to scan em.

Works the same hinge wise.

Main benefit being that you can fell a tree wider than more than double the bar you have.

You plunge the vertical cut first, with the side benefit of feeling out decy in the stem.

Then the face cuts can be done normal from both end and then you can use the tip and run across the face of the tree to complete it. Also after plunging & cutting from both ends the middle can be knocked out with an axe.

newguy18

looks simaler to a notch in Jerry's book,he call it the block out humboldt but after that part is done he puts a snipe on the stump to help it slide.Good for big trunks.

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TrevMcRev

wheres alopa??? Sure he's done it...

Treelore

Still fail to see the benefit. What can you possibly gain from this that you can't from quarter cutting or plunge cutting or back cutting. To me it would seem the hinge would be far more loose and the control far less.Don't get it!!

newguy18

Actually the hinge works about the same if not better,because of the gap it can guide over further before breaking off of the stump.Kinda like a wide face cut with a gap.

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Treelore

I cannot see that and I also see the release as being more violent than a conventional scarf.

Therrin

I think if the vertical gap were a bit taller below the hinge it'd look right.

As to it being loose... as long as the proper hinge dynamics are still in play... the depth of the scarf and notch, the level of the back cut and the level of the hinge, it should act like a normal hinge.
It looks like the facets of the box don't really come into play with the hinge, but rather the dynamic of how the spar reacts to the stump when the hinge lets go.

I've got some smaller dead stuff to drop today, I guess I'll check that out. Any reason that a small-scale facsimile wouldn't work the same as with a much larger tree?

Pics if I can find a card that works in the camera.

Therrin

The first box cut was just a tad too deep, the second turned out alright. It's funny, i put a hinge but the way it broke off was really clean. I actually really liked how it lets go when it separates, just pops off and and out enough that it never even touches the stump on the way down.

Very easy, very nice... not violent or rough at all. Can't wait to try it on something BIGGER!

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Eric Frei

In this diagram I have opened up the box a lot. Now imagine the box so wide that it clears itself.

Talk about superior anti stump kickback if felling up hill.

Also it would allow the tree to sit right down, no hinge breaking, lay that tree down all the way.

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newguy18

Yay,therrin learned how to square up his cuts.

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JohN Dee

I think I read in my chainsaw manual, that they used to use the box cut because the OLDER chainsaws didn't like the diagonal cutting angles needed for a conventional scarf and this box cut was much more productive on the saws behalf... As soon as I bloody relocate my chainsaw manual I'll post up pics..

Heya Therrin, wheres the close up pic of the hinge after it broke off?

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s.kerrone

John Dee is right!, in bc anyways.the old twin powersaws with ''scratch" chain couldn t do the angled cut.
We use very wide undercuts on trees that have lots of limbs on one side and we don t want the tree to roll.

Treelore

Yeah they look suspiciously like a snap cut with zero hinge

Therrin

I dunno what happened to the hinge. I stopped it to leave the hinge in there. They leaned out slowly at first then snapped off and dropped. That stuff was pretty hard actually. Well past dead and the one rotted in the middle.

They went over cleanly, I didn't get it, but it may be the type of wood. A pine sure wouldn't have looked that way afterwards.


How about you go cut some and post some pics Treelore?

Treelore

haha perhaps I will. Just saying that I think it is rather evident how the tree will respond. 99 times out of a hundred you will probably have success but I think you have less control because it will behave like a snap cut and one time when the weight is wrong it will snap out the wrong way. In all of this my point is in what way ever could it be advantageous to a conventional scarf.

newguy18

thats what wedges and pull ropes are for.

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Eric Frei

Snap cuts rely on cuts passing each other above and below. To call this a snap cut or inept hinge means all humboldts are the same.

But humboldts are pretty much the felling standard in west USA and Canada so the butt end of the log is square and with little waste.

The hinge of the box cut will work the same, the release or breaking of the hinge will be delayed as the faces wont meet till 90 degrees has completed ... however depending on the tree species etc some will break before anyway.

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Treelore

Laughing my head of as I post this...I cannot use paint hope you understand the drawings. What is happening A or B

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Eric Frei

It's sort of A happening but the back cut has to be higher than the top of the box cut, that then is a hinge.

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Treelore

yes that was an oversight in my drawings but therrins photos dont appear to resemble either

TreeDimensional

I copied Therrins pictures, and zoomed in as good as I could. It appears that he may have cut the hinge wood.

I think Ekka's question may have been answered, the OLD saw/chain combinations didn't cut well diagonally cross the grain. They first guys with powered saws were probably tickled pink that they were so efficient, with the new technology.

The next tree I remove, I will set the video camera up in an attempt to show what happens once the notch faces meet. In my opinion, the hinge wood will remain intact until the notch closes, then the fibers (hinge wood) will tear until they reach the snapping point.

The face of the notch in relationship to the back cut will direct the tree to where it lays on the ground. I have a publication somewhere around here that looked at a variety of combinations of notch/backcut scenarios. Its a little to late to look for it tonight, I will find it tomorrow.

Eric Frei

Yeah, I had this doc too but it's gone (was on old PC), and buggered if I can find anything on the net.

Try both, a narrow one and a wide one.

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TreeDimensional

I hate to admit it but now we have the mill, I find my self trying to maximize the wood from the trees we remove. Hence I am using a humboldt more. If trees are in a tight location, I want to control the fall right to the ground. The open face notch works well for this, especially on ground with a slope, and all the limbs have been removed (roll). I use a VERY wide angle and most of the time, the hinge wood remains intact until the log is at rest on the ground. The only problem is that you have to be VERY careful cutting the hinge wood, and have quick reflexes.

Species of tree and the amount of desiccation, and hollows must be factored into every fell. The other issue here is frost cracks, one can be seen on a log I am loading onto the mill. Frost cracks are more of an issue for rigging than felling, IMO.

mdvaden

Anybody been watching Axmen on History Channel the past few nights?

They did not use that notch, but a comment was made about another notch, that would explain the box shaped notch.

I'll let you think about the show and see if you remember the guy commenting about cuts.

It dealt with a special safety issue.

The box notch would probably supercede what the loggers were doing in regards to their purpose, but would take too much time for them.

Therrin

If ya looked at the photo where you could see the boxed out part and the start of the back cut it sure looks like em... squint, it'll help



Besides I had never cut one before. It's hard to go up against people who're perfect right outta the box.


If you've an ounce of teaching ability perhaps you could make a suggestion, instead of just shooting me down because it's easier? I mean c'mon man, you've been cert'd for how long now? Surely there's *something* you can say to add something positive to my obviously bleak situation.