Box or Square Scarf - Notch

Ekka · 18th April 2008, 04:13 AM

I've drawn a diagram of this, I recall seeing it somewhere.

Does anyone know anything about it?

I've searched but come up with blanks, I know it was a legitimate notch but cannot find anything on it.

Treelore · 18th April 2008, 04:19 AM

Never seen that in application. I can see it jumping a little from base of tree not sure why this would benefit. Gonna be harder to control because it will act more like a snap cut than a hinge. Why do you want to know about it??

Therrin · 18th April 2008, 04:26 AM

Considering how much more difficult it would be to cut correctly, what would be the benefit of using a box notch like this?
Are there any?

I agree with Treelore, looks like the leading top edge on that notch could knee right down into the lower and kick it up.

Ekka · 18th April 2008, 04:28 AM

Depending how wide you cut it just like a normal notch it shouldn't jump anymore.

As far as snap cut goes the hinge works no different to a Humboldt.

Just seen it around, want to know the history of it.

Therrin · 18th April 2008, 04:32 AM

Wouldn't you have to cut the first two level, and then plunge to box it out? Sounds like more stress and wear for the tip of your bar if ya used these box cuts much.

Anyhow, what are the benefits to box cutting it?

TrevMcRev · 18th April 2008, 04:51 AM

Box scarf. I've done it. Have some photos of the stump but will have to scan em.

Works the same hinge wise.

Main benefit being that you can fell a tree wider than more than double the bar you have.

You plunge the vertical cut first, with the side benefit of feeling out decy in the stem.

Then the face cuts can be done normal from both end and then you can use the tip and run across the face of the tree to complete it. Also after plunging & cutting from both ends the middle can be knocked out with an axe.

newguy18 · 18th April 2008, 06:13 AM

looks simaler to a notch in Jerry's book,he call it the block out humboldt but after that part is done he puts a snipe on the stump to help it slide.Good for big trunks.

TrevMcRev · 18th April 2008, 06:18 AM

wheres alopa??? Sure he's done it...

Treelore · 18th April 2008, 06:28 AM

Still fail to see the benefit. What can you possibly gain from this that you can't from quarter cutting or plunge cutting or back cutting. To me it would seem the hinge would be far more loose and the control far less.Don't get it!!

newguy18 · 18th April 2008, 07:12 AM

Actually the hinge works about the same if not better,because of the gap it can guide over further before breaking off of the stump.Kinda like a wide face cut with a gap.

Treelore · 18th April 2008, 07:16 AM

I cannot see that and I also see the release as being more violent than a conventional scarf.

Therrin · 18th April 2008, 08:13 AM

I think if the vertical gap were a bit taller below the hinge it'd look right.

As to it being loose... as long as the proper hinge dynamics are still in play... the depth of the scarf and notch, the level of the back cut and the level of the hinge, it should act like a normal hinge.
It looks like the facets of the box don't really come into play with the hinge, but rather the dynamic of how the spar reacts to the stump when the hinge lets go.

I've got some smaller dead stuff to drop today, I guess I'll check that out. Any reason that a small-scale facsimile wouldn't work the same as with a much larger tree?

Pics if I can find a card that works in the camera.

Therrin · 18th April 2008, 02:49 PM

The first box cut was just a tad too deep, the second turned out alright. It's funny, i put a hinge but the way it broke off was really clean. I actually really liked how it lets go when it separates, just pops off and and out enough that it never even touches the stump on the way down.

Very easy, very nice... not violent or rough at all. Can't wait to try it on something BIGGER!

Ekka · 18th April 2008, 03:33 PM

In this diagram I have opened up the box a lot. Now imagine the box so wide that it clears itself.

Talk about superior anti stump kickback if felling up hill.

Also it would allow the tree to sit right down, no hinge breaking, lay that tree down all the way.

newguy18 · 18th April 2008, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Therrin

The first box cut was just a tad too deep, the second turned out alright. It's funny, i put a hinge but the way it broke off was really clean. I actually really liked how it lets go when it separates, just pops off and and out enough that it never even touches the stump on the way down.

Very easy, very nice... not violent or rough at all. Can't wait to try it on something BIGGER!

Yay,therrin learned how to square up his cuts.

JohN Dee · 18th April 2008, 04:42 PM

I think I read in my chainsaw manual, that they used to use the box cut because the OLDER chainsaws didn't like the diagonal cutting angles needed for a conventional scarf and this box cut was much more productive on the saws behalf... As soon as I bloody relocate my chainsaw manual I'll post up pics..

Heya Therrin, wheres the close up pic of the hinge after it broke off?

18th April 2008, 04:19 AM	#2 (permalink)
Treelore Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Brisbane Posts: 112	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch Never seen that in application. I can see it jumping a little from base of tree not sure why this would benefit. Gonna be harder to control because it will act more like a snap cut than a hinge. Why do you want to know about it??

18th April 2008, 04:26 AM	#3 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,273	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch Considering how much more difficult it would be to cut correctly, what would be the benefit of using a box notch like this? Are there any? I agree with Treelore, looks like the leading top edge on that notch could knee right down into the lower and kick it up. __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

18th April 2008, 04:28 AM	#4 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch Depending how wide you cut it just like a normal notch it shouldn't jump anymore. As far as snap cut goes the hinge works no different to a Humboldt. Just seen it around, want to know the history of it. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

18th April 2008, 04:32 AM	#5 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,273	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch Wouldn't you have to cut the first two level, and then plunge to box it out? Sounds like more stress and wear for the tip of your bar if ya used these box cuts much. Anyhow, what are the benefits to box cutting it? __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

18th April 2008, 04:51 AM	#6 (permalink)
TrevMcRev Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 734	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch Box scarf. I've done it. Have some photos of the stump but will have to scan em. Works the same hinge wise. Main benefit being that you can fell a tree wider than more than double the bar you have. You plunge the vertical cut first, with the side benefit of feeling out decy in the stem. Then the face cuts can be done normal from both end and then you can use the tip and run across the face of the tree to complete it. Also after plunging & cutting from both ends the middle can be knocked out with an axe. __________________ Melbourne Arborist, Total Tree Care, Pruning, Tree and Stump Removal

18th April 2008, 06:13 AM	#7 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,682	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch looks simaler to a notch in Jerry's book,he call it the block out humboldt but after that part is done he puts a snipe on the stump to help it slide.Good for big trunks. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

18th April 2008, 06:18 AM	#8 (permalink)
TrevMcRev Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 734	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch wheres alopa??? Sure he's done it... __________________ Melbourne Arborist, Total Tree Care, Pruning, Tree and Stump Removal

18th April 2008, 06:28 AM	#9 (permalink)
Treelore Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Brisbane Posts: 112	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch Still fail to see the benefit. What can you possibly gain from this that you can't from quarter cutting or plunge cutting or back cutting. To me it would seem the hinge would be far more loose and the control far less.Don't get it!!

18th April 2008, 07:12 AM	#10 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,682	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch Actually the hinge works about the same if not better,because of the gap it can guide over further before breaking off of the stump.Kinda like a wide face cut with a gap. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

18th April 2008, 07:16 AM	#11 (permalink)
Treelore Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Brisbane Posts: 112	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch I cannot see that and I also see the release as being more violent than a conventional scarf.

18th April 2008, 08:13 AM	#12 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,273	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch I think if the vertical gap were a bit taller below the hinge it'd look right. As to it being loose... as long as the proper hinge dynamics are still in play... the depth of the scarf and notch, the level of the back cut and the level of the hinge, it should act like a normal hinge. It looks like the facets of the box don't really come into play with the hinge, but rather the dynamic of how the spar reacts to the stump when the hinge lets go. I've got some smaller dead stuff to drop today, I guess I'll check that out. Any reason that a small-scale facsimile wouldn't work the same as with a much larger tree? Pics if I can find a card that works in the camera. __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

18th April 2008, 04:42 PM	#16 (permalink)
JohN Dee Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 751	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch I think I read in my chainsaw manual, that they used to use the box cut because the OLDER chainsaws didn't like the diagonal cutting angles needed for a conventional scarf and this box cut was much more productive on the saws behalf... As soon as I bloody relocate my chainsaw manual I'll post up pics.. Heya Therrin, wheres the close up pic of the hinge after it broke off? __________________ Climber with slow climbing speed, must make up with mighty chainsaw roar. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Red : Green : Blue