Box or Square Scarf - Notch

Treelore · 19th April 2008, 07:32 PM

I fear we may be arguing the same thing Ekka but chasing the scarf as the tree is falling is altering hingewood and you end up with triangulated hinge at end.

Ekka · 19th April 2008, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treelore

I have to say that the last statement of page four is false. I have witnessed on thousands of occasions how by triangulating my hinge wood I was able to succesfully keep a tree tracking straight wheras if I had cut uniformly from the back I would have hinge breakout and loss of direction.

Oh and hahaha

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treelore

I fear we may be arguing the same thing Ekka but chasing the scarf as the tree is falling is altering hingewood and you end up with triangulated hinge at end.

On one hand you said the statement that a triangulated hinge doesn't alter felling direction is false.

Then you said the tree does fall straight but it wouldn't have unless the triangulated hinge was used.... because the triangulated hinge prevented "breakout". So you have contradicted yourself as it's not the triangulation that alters direction. Therefore the statement stands true.

I attempted to clear this matter by

1/ Using symmetrical trees to show that triangulation of the hinge doesn't alter felling direction.

2/ By cutting away the hinge as the tree is falling on one side slightly alters the felling direction however it's a risky and bad practice simply not worth the end result.

3/ That triangulating the hinge so the opposite side of the lean has the thicker hinge still doesn't change the fall direction ... what it does do is provide more resistance to the hinge breaking and losing the tree to the lean/weighted side.

So I conclude that the last paragraph of attached H4 is accurate and true. The documents referred to are in this post

Treelore · 19th April 2008, 08:02 PM

I am not contradicting myself and I am not saying it alters direction. I am saying that if you scarf your tree in the direction you wish it to fall then a correct backcut will allow it to fall in this direction if this means having a slightly thicker hinge on one side to prevent breaking of hinge and tree not falling in correct direction then that is how it will eventuate. the amount of supporting hinge is crucial to fall direction. But that direction is predetermined by scarf orientation.

Ekka · 19th April 2008, 09:09 PM

Some of this thread went slightly off topic onto the tapered hinge. Posts were moved to the more relevant thread including this post. Follow the link below.
Training style vid - felling a side leaner, most viewed video in my collection

First came the paragraph as seen here. It says

Quote:

"Hinge modification consisting of a hinge that is thin on one end and thicker on the other has no bearing on the direction of a falling tree and recommendations that suggest so should be disregarded."

To which you said this:-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treelore

I have to say that the last statement of page four is false. I have witnessed on thousands of occasions how by triangulating my hinge wood I was able to succesfully keep a tree tracking straight wheras if I had cut uniformly from the back I would have hinge breakout and loss of direction.

You said it was a false statement. Hence the confusion. Below you state .... I bolded the area of vital importance here, that the scarf determines the felling direction not the hinge. That is the key issue here and that means the statement in H4 is true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treelore

I am saying that if you scarf your tree in the direction you wish it to fall then a correct backcut will allow it to fall in this direction if this means having a slightly thicker hinge on one side to prevent breaking of hinge and tree not falling in correct direction then that is how it will eventuate. the amount of supporting hinge is crucial to fall direction. But that direction is predetermined by scarf orientation.

TreeDimensional · 19th April 2008, 10:20 PM

It is my opinion that the notch (scarf) apex is what dictates the direction that the tree will fall. This is why most fellers are so anal about the apex. It is probably why a dutchman is so dangerous. The reason for amending the back-cut is to compensate for lean or off balance of crown.

My son just spent two weeks at the IVMAA (Industrial Vegetation Management Association of Alberta) course. This is for Utility tree pruners, and is very comprehensive in all aspects of the trade. He informed me that there was a guy instructing in the merits of a double notch approach. My kid was really concerned with the method and asked my advise. I am withholding a decision until he can show me on paper or in person. The way he explained it lead me to believe that the direction that the tree would go, must be related to wishful thinking. He has issues with explaining things at times.

My concern with the box scarf is that the location of the back-cut could potentially cause the fibers to separate vertically, causing the tree to fall ANY direction. This scenario would be amplified with an asymmetric crown or a un-expected gust of wind. Trust me I KNOW about the wind! This also relates to the knowledge of what the relationship of apex/direction of fall. I thought I needed to compensate for a crosswind once and proved that the apex is what sends a tree to where it will land. Nothing and no one was hurt, except my pride, BUT it was a lesson I will NEVER forget.

On another note, the box cut would be great for using the site lines on the saw!

TrevMcRev · 19th April 2008, 11:13 PM

Ekka try it on a radiata pine.

TrevMcRev · 19th April 2008, 11:32 PM

Like so...

Ekka · 19th April 2008, 11:36 PM

Where are those pics from?

Do explain.

TrevMcRev · 20th April 2008, 01:19 AM

From Arbo school 10 years ago!
We worked in 2 groups, 1 tree each. That was the other groups tree.

I did most of the climbing, felling out a big lightning struck(?) head, and felling the trunk of my groups tree, but i think those pics are at work. I'll try to find em too.

What i think most are missing here is that it allows you to fell almost

any width trunk.

You plunge out the vetical parts from both sides first.

Then, instead of cutting in towards your back cut square on, you put the tip in and plunge a bit to the desired depth to match up with the vertical back cut, then just keep going across the width of the trunk. You do this twice obviously.

Even if your vertical plunges dont reach each other in the middle, once you knock out each side that is fully cut, the middle only being held by vertical fibres will knock out roughly with an axe.

So with a 25" bar you could put in a 25" plunge from each side into an 80" log and knock out the inner 30"

Ekka · 20th April 2008, 01:24 AM

LOL

I was wondering why the axes with all those saws sitting there. Looks like a bunch of beavers gnawed that barrel at all angles.

Hey, 10 years ago and you guys had chainsaw pants on, pretty good!

vl2007 · 20th April 2008, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

I have made lots of videos which support document H4 TreeDimensional put in that pie shaped or wedge shaped hinges have little influence on direction of fall.

Where a significant difference can be made is what I call "chasing the tree down". That means hanging around the stump and as the tree is falling you keep cutting and that does change it.

Many argue like you but I did videos to prove it wrong, in true arrogant fashion like WMD in Iraq many denounced the evidence and continued saying the earth is flat.

There will be slight differences, depending on how thick the hinges are. If you have no hinge on one side and 20% on the other a slight deflection will occur (near insignificant) but not enough to "bank on".

In this post is videos you can watch.

Training style vid - felling a side leaner, most viewed video in my collection

Chasing the tree down will leave you within 5' of tree longer then needed. most accidents happen within 5' of the tree. Loggers use this tech. though. Just my two cents.

Sean Freeman · 20th April 2008, 04:31 AM

Definately don't be stuck at the stump, the escape/retreat path is there for a reason..use it.

Standing at the stump for whatever reason is not an acceptable practice, its a very dangerous place to be.

newguy18 · 20th April 2008, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Freeman

Definately don't be stuck at the stump, the escape/retreat path is there for a reason..use it.

Standing at the stump for whatever reason is not an acceptable practice, its a very dangerous place to be.

yes its dangerous but from time to time its nessecary.Like when swinging trees,and wedging backleaners.I'm not condoning it or saying go do it but i have had to do it and i strongly recomend standing off to one side if you have to do it.

Ekka · 23rd April 2008, 12:19 AM

Not really a humboldt, more of a box scarf or notch, pinched this video link from another thread.

YouTube - Old Growth Logging (Northern California)

RandyMac · 23rd April 2008, 12:31 AM

OW!! quit pinchin'.

The other name for this is "step cut", should have remembered that sooner, but things get lost in the mire.

19th April 2008, 07:32 PM	#51 (permalink)
Treelore Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Brisbane Posts: 112	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch I fear we may be arguing the same thing Ekka but chasing the scarf as the tree is falling is altering hingewood and you end up with triangulated hinge at end.

19th April 2008, 08:02 PM	#53 (permalink)
Treelore Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Brisbane Posts: 112	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch I am not contradicting myself and I am not saying it alters direction. I am saying that if you scarf your tree in the direction you wish it to fall then a correct backcut will allow it to fall in this direction if this means having a slightly thicker hinge on one side to prevent breaking of hinge and tree not falling in correct direction then that is how it will eventuate. the amount of supporting hinge is crucial to fall direction. But that direction is predetermined by scarf orientation.

19th April 2008, 10:20 PM	#55 (permalink)
TreeDimensional Banned Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 381	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch It is my opinion that the notch (scarf) apex is what dictates the direction that the tree will fall. This is why most fellers are so anal about the apex. It is probably why a dutchman is so dangerous. The reason for amending the back-cut is to compensate for lean or off balance of crown. My son just spent two weeks at the IVMAA (Industrial Vegetation Management Association of Alberta) course. This is for Utility tree pruners, and is very comprehensive in all aspects of the trade. He informed me that there was a guy instructing in the merits of a double notch approach. My kid was really concerned with the method and asked my advise. I am withholding a decision until he can show me on paper or in person. The way he explained it lead me to believe that the direction that the tree would go, must be related to wishful thinking. He has issues with explaining things at times. My concern with the box scarf is that the location of the back-cut could potentially cause the fibers to separate vertically, causing the tree to fall ANY direction. This scenario would be amplified with an asymmetric crown or a un-expected gust of wind. Trust me I KNOW about the wind! This also relates to the knowledge of what the relationship of apex/direction of fall. I thought I needed to compensate for a crosswind once and proved that the apex is what sends a tree to where it will land. Nothing and no one was hurt, except my pride, BUT it was a lesson I will NEVER forget. On another note, the box cut would be great for using the site lines on the saw!

19th April 2008, 11:13 PM	#56 (permalink)
TrevMcRev Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 734	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch Ekka try it on a radiata pine. __________________ Melbourne Arborist, Total Tree Care, Pruning, Tree and Stump Removal

19th April 2008, 11:36 PM	#58 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch Where are those pics from? Do explain. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

20th April 2008, 01:19 AM	#59 (permalink)
TrevMcRev Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 734	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch From Arbo school 10 years ago! We worked in 2 groups, 1 tree each. That was the other groups tree. I did most of the climbing, felling out a big lightning struck(?) head, and felling the trunk of my groups tree, but i think those pics are at work. I'll try to find em too. What i think most are missing here is that it allows you to fell almost any width trunk. You plunge out the vetical parts from both sides first. Then, instead of cutting in towards your back cut square on, you put the tip in and plunge a bit to the desired depth to match up with the vertical back cut, then just keep going across the width of the trunk. You do this twice obviously. Even if your vertical plunges dont reach each other in the middle, once you knock out each side that is fully cut, the middle only being held by vertical fibres will knock out roughly with an axe. So with a 25" bar you could put in a 25" plunge from each side into an 80" log and knock out the inner 30" __________________ Melbourne Arborist, Total Tree Care, Pruning, Tree and Stump Removal

20th April 2008, 01:24 AM	#60 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch LOL I was wondering why the axes with all those saws sitting there. Looks like a bunch of beavers gnawed that barrel at all angles. Hey, 10 years ago and you guys had chainsaw pants on, pretty good! __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

20th April 2008, 04:31 AM	#62 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch Definately don't be stuck at the stump, the escape/retreat path is there for a reason..use it. Standing at the stump for whatever reason is not an acceptable practice, its a very dangerous place to be. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

23rd April 2008, 12:19 AM	#64 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch Not really a humboldt, more of a box scarf or notch, pinched this video link from another thread. YouTube - Old Growth Logging (Northern California) __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

23rd April 2008, 12:31 AM	#65 (permalink)
RandyMac Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: NW California Posts: 77	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch OW!! quit pinchin'. The other name for this is "step cut", should have remembered that sooner, but things get lost in the mire. __________________ RandyMac