Box or Square Scarf - Notch

TreeDimensional · 19th April 2008, 12:26 AM

I copied Therrins pictures, and zoomed in as good as I could. It appears that he may have cut the hinge wood.

I think Ekka's question may have been answered, the OLD saw/chain combinations didn't cut well diagonally cross the grain. They first guys with powered saws were probably tickled pink that they were so efficient, with the new technology.

The next tree I remove, I will set the video camera up in an attempt to show what happens once the notch faces meet. In my opinion, the hinge wood will remain intact until the notch closes, then the fibers (hinge wood) will tear until they reach the snapping point.

The face of the notch in relationship to the back cut will direct the tree to where it lays on the ground. I have a publication somewhere around here that looked at a variety of combinations of notch/backcut scenarios. Its a little to late to look for it tonight, I will find it tomorrow.

Ekka · 19th April 2008, 12:42 AM

Yeah, I had this doc too but it's gone (was on old PC), and buggered if I can find anything on the net.

Try both, a narrow one and a wide one.

TreeDimensional · 19th April 2008, 12:53 AM

I hate to admit it but now we have the mill, I find my self trying to maximize the wood from the trees we remove. Hence I am using a humboldt more. If trees are in a tight location, I want to control the fall right to the ground. The open face notch works well for this, especially on ground with a slope, and all the limbs have been removed (roll). I use a VERY wide angle and most of the time, the hinge wood remains intact until the log is at rest on the ground. The only problem is that you have to be VERY careful cutting the hinge wood, and have quick reflexes.

Species of tree and the amount of desiccation, and hollows must be factored into every fell. The other issue here is frost cracks, one can be seen on a log I am loading onto the mill. Frost cracks are more of an issue for rigging than felling, IMO.

mdvaden · 19th April 2008, 01:02 AM

Anybody been watching Axmen on History Channel the past few nights?

They did not use that notch, but a comment was made about another notch, that would explain the box shaped notch.

I'll let you think about the show and see if you remember the guy commenting about cuts.

It dealt with a special safety issue.

The box notch would probably supercede what the loggers were doing in regards to their purpose, but would take too much time for them.

Therrin · 19th April 2008, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treelore

yes that was an oversight in my drawings but therrins photos dont appear to resemble either

If ya looked at the photo where you could see the boxed out part and the start of the back cut it sure looks like em... squint, it'll help

Besides I had never cut one before. It's hard to go up against people who're perfect right outta the box.

If you've an ounce of teaching ability perhaps you could make a suggestion, instead of just shooting me down because it's easier? I mean c'mon man, you've been cert'd for how long now? Surely there's *something* you can say to add something positive to my obviously bleak situation.

Treelore · 19th April 2008, 05:45 AM

Therrin I was not trying to shoot you down at all and I am sorry if you got that impression I was merely observing that the results of your cuts didn't mimic what others were suggesting might happen. It was not a dig at you at all.

vl2007 · 19th April 2008, 06:53 AM

I believe the 70-90% open face notch is more common in the usa.

This box scarf cut, would be usful taking out a top. Keeping it from popping back. Or am i wrong in this thought?

RandyMac · 19th April 2008, 09:36 AM

The block cut is mainly used on the larger trees, often old growth Redwoods. It about controlling how the tree falls, not just where it falls.
Take this Sugar Pine for example, it was about two feet from the chimney, with a few other things in the way further up the hill. I needed it to fall with the full length contacting to ground at the same time. I wanted it to fall easy, evenly, no twisting.

The object was to keep the tree on the stump, until it was horizontal to the ground, then have it be pushed forward, away from the house. Controll of the butt was critical, having it roll or bounce could have been messy.

Kinda hard to tell from this old photo, the holding wood doesn't show well, there was 3" on the left, tapering up to 6" toward the chimney side. Sugar Pines are moderately brittle, the hinge wood usually just snaps or tears. Anyway, it hit the snipe, moved forward, and hit like a paper sack full of wet sand.

Therrin · 19th April 2008, 09:49 AM

Granted, like you said it probably works best on bigger trees Randy.

I can see what you meant about it falling and hitting horizontal though. The hinge just snaps off clean and it drops evenly. Gives a little push off when it snaps. Doesn't keel over and hit top first and bounce or anything.

Thanks for putting those pics up.

Treelore · 19th April 2008, 10:11 AM

my 2c worth. A scarf that is smaller in height will allow a tree to snap the hinge earlier resulting in a tree laying flatter. This is not controlling how a tree falls this is controlling how a tree lands The fact that you are not having two even surfaces come into contact but the top cut resting on a very small surface area begs for lack of control especially if the tree had an irregular shape. You would have pressures exerted on the outside uneven edge of the tree and possibly pushing of the tree out of direct fall. I fail to see how by cutting out a block you have achieved anything that you wouldn't achieve by cutting a notch of the same height as your block cut. You are also going to get different responses depending on the height of the vertical cut because of where the top horizontal cut will actually meet the lower wood to close out the hinge. All of these variables make for an extremely complicated scarf that I am not even convinced has a merit.
This post is not intended as being inflammatory I am just really wanting some hard and fast surety of a single "actual" benefit.

Therrin · 19th April 2008, 10:24 AM

Those of us who've tried it think we see a benefit. It's a little hard for me to explain. Try it maybe?

hmm.... if there are no trees you are able to or willing to cut down, just go get some used telephone poles and stick em 2 or 3 feet in the ground and use those! It'd be like doing it with a dummy, you won't have to worry about killing it

Really though, I'm lookin for something bigger to try it on.
If ya think about it, we've reiterated time and time again on this forum that there are different methods for different situations. And, that most of us aren't advocating a specific method for ALL situations, just exploring the possibilities.

Think of it like using different um.. "positions"... Treelore. In the end, the result is the same, but it's getting there effectively using a different position to achieve similar results based on a specific situation.

TreeDimensional · 19th April 2008, 10:42 AM

OK, I am guilty of potentially sidetracking this thread BUT here is the article I was speaking of. I scanned it from a publication called "The Prairie Arborist". The article is by Laurie Newsham and Jean-Mathieu Daoust.

Treelore · 19th April 2008, 10:47 AM

TD it's too small to read can it be blown up?

Therrin · 19th April 2008, 11:02 AM

TD he's right, they're pretty small to read the text. I tried blowing them up from the small stuff you put up but it makes the text illegible. Can you resize the originals so that they're readable?

TreeDimensional · 19th April 2008, 11:14 AM

I will have to do this in 4 parts, sorry! Here is page 1.

Here is page 2.

Here is page 3.

Finally page 4. After years of being told to keep my responses short, I was suprised that 2 words is TOO short.

TreeDimensional · 19th April 2008, 11:22 AM

I can stop doing stuff today, I have accomplished a milestone. I got Therrin and Treelore to agree on something! Even though it was only about the size of my file!

Treelore · 19th April 2008, 11:23 AM

I have to say that the last statement of page four is false. I have witnessed on thousands of occasions how by triangulating my hinge wood I was able to succesfully keep a tree tracking straight wheras if I had cut uniformly from the back I would have hinge breakout and loss of direction.

Oh and hahaha

19th April 2008, 12:26 AM	#26 (permalink)
TreeDimensional Banned Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 381	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch I copied Therrins pictures, and zoomed in as good as I could. It appears that he may have cut the hinge wood. I think Ekka's question may have been answered, the OLD saw/chain combinations didn't cut well diagonally cross the grain. They first guys with powered saws were probably tickled pink that they were so efficient, with the new technology. The next tree I remove, I will set the video camera up in an attempt to show what happens once the notch faces meet. In my opinion, the hinge wood will remain intact until the notch closes, then the fibers (hinge wood) will tear until they reach the snapping point. The face of the notch in relationship to the back cut will direct the tree to where it lays on the ground. I have a publication somewhere around here that looked at a variety of combinations of notch/backcut scenarios. Its a little to late to look for it tonight, I will find it tomorrow.

19th April 2008, 12:42 AM	#27 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,915	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch Yeah, I had this doc too but it's gone (was on old PC), and buggered if I can find anything on the net. Try both, a narrow one and a wide one. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

19th April 2008, 12:53 AM	#28 (permalink)
TreeDimensional Banned Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 381	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch I hate to admit it but now we have the mill, I find my self trying to maximize the wood from the trees we remove. Hence I am using a humboldt more. If trees are in a tight location, I want to control the fall right to the ground. The open face notch works well for this, especially on ground with a slope, and all the limbs have been removed (roll). I use a VERY wide angle and most of the time, the hinge wood remains intact until the log is at rest on the ground. The only problem is that you have to be VERY careful cutting the hinge wood, and have quick reflexes. Species of tree and the amount of desiccation, and hollows must be factored into every fell. The other issue here is frost cracks, one can be seen on a log I am loading onto the mill. Frost cracks are more of an issue for rigging than felling, IMO.

19th April 2008, 01:02 AM	#29 (permalink)
mdvaden Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 543	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch Anybody been watching Axmen on History Channel the past few nights? They did not use that notch, but a comment was made about another notch, that would explain the box shaped notch. I'll let you think about the show and see if you remember the guy commenting about cuts. It dealt with a special safety issue. The box notch would probably supercede what the loggers were doing in regards to their purpose, but would take too much time for them. __________________ ____________________________________ Grove of Redwood TITANS Oregon BIGOOT trap

19th April 2008, 05:45 AM	#31 (permalink)
Treelore Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Brisbane Posts: 112	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch Therrin I was not trying to shoot you down at all and I am sorry if you got that impression I was merely observing that the results of your cuts didn't mimic what others were suggesting might happen. It was not a dig at you at all.

19th April 2008, 06:53 AM	#32 (permalink)
vl2007 Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Florida Keys Posts: 92	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch I believe the 70-90% open face notch is more common in the usa. This box scarf cut, would be usful taking out a top. Keeping it from popping back. Or am i wrong in this thought?

19th April 2008, 09:36 AM	#33 (permalink)
RandyMac Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: NW California Posts: 77	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch The block cut is mainly used on the larger trees, often old growth Redwoods. It about controlling how the tree falls, not just where it falls. Take this Sugar Pine for example, it was about two feet from the chimney, with a few other things in the way further up the hill. I needed it to fall with the full length contacting to ground at the same time. I wanted it to fall easy, evenly, no twisting. The object was to keep the tree on the stump, until it was horizontal to the ground, then have it be pushed forward, away from the house. Controll of the butt was critical, having it roll or bounce could have been messy. Kinda hard to tell from this old photo, the holding wood doesn't show well, there was 3" on the left, tapering up to 6" toward the chimney side. Sugar Pines are moderately brittle, the hinge wood usually just snaps or tears. Anyway, it hit the snipe, moved forward, and hit like a paper sack full of wet sand. __________________ RandyMac

19th April 2008, 09:49 AM	#34 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,273	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch Granted, like you said it probably works best on bigger trees Randy. I can see what you meant about it falling and hitting horizontal though. The hinge just snaps off clean and it drops evenly. Gives a little push off when it snaps. Doesn't keel over and hit top first and bounce or anything. Thanks for putting those pics up. __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

19th April 2008, 10:11 AM	#35 (permalink)
Treelore Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Brisbane Posts: 112	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch my 2c worth. A scarf that is smaller in height will allow a tree to snap the hinge earlier resulting in a tree laying flatter. This is not controlling how a tree falls this is controlling how a tree lands The fact that you are not having two even surfaces come into contact but the top cut resting on a very small surface area begs for lack of control especially if the tree had an irregular shape. You would have pressures exerted on the outside uneven edge of the tree and possibly pushing of the tree out of direct fall. I fail to see how by cutting out a block you have achieved anything that you wouldn't achieve by cutting a notch of the same height as your block cut. You are also going to get different responses depending on the height of the vertical cut because of where the top horizontal cut will actually meet the lower wood to close out the hinge. All of these variables make for an extremely complicated scarf that I am not even convinced has a merit. This post is not intended as being inflammatory I am just really wanting some hard and fast surety of a single "actual" benefit.

19th April 2008, 10:24 AM	#36 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,273	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch Those of us who've tried it think we see a benefit. It's a little hard for me to explain. Try it maybe? hmm.... if there are no trees you are able to or willing to cut down, just go get some used telephone poles and stick em 2 or 3 feet in the ground and use those! It'd be like doing it with a dummy, you won't have to worry about killing it Really though, I'm lookin for something bigger to try it on. If ya think about it, we've reiterated time and time again on this forum that there are different methods for different situations. And, that most of us aren't advocating a specific method for ALL situations, just exploring the possibilities. Think of it like using different um.. "positions"... Treelore. In the end, the result is the same, but it's getting there effectively using a different position to achieve similar results based on a specific situation. __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

19th April 2008, 10:47 AM	#38 (permalink)
Treelore Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Brisbane Posts: 112	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch TD it's too small to read can it be blown up?

19th April 2008, 11:02 AM	#39 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,273	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch TD he's right, they're pretty small to read the text. I tried blowing them up from the small stuff you put up but it makes the text illegible. Can you resize the originals so that they're readable? __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

19th April 2008, 11:22 AM	#41 (permalink)
TreeDimensional Banned Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 381	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch I can stop doing stuff today, I have accomplished a milestone. I got Therrin and Treelore to agree on something! Even though it was only about the size of my file!

19th April 2008, 11:23 AM	#42 (permalink)
Treelore Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Brisbane Posts: 112	Re: Box or Square Scarf - Notch I have to say that the last statement of page four is false. I have witnessed on thousands of occasions how by triangulating my hinge wood I was able to succesfully keep a tree tracking straight wheras if I had cut uniformly from the back I would have hinge breakout and loss of direction. Oh and hahaha