Bonsais..good or bad?

atula · 20th October 2007, 04:06 AM

My father has got many bonsais..of common Indian trees. There are ficuses, oranges, bouganvilia, pomegranate, tamarind etc.etc.
While growing up i used to live these minni trees and see them bloom or when oranges ripened in the orange tree. But then there are so many people who just dont think this is correct.
At one hand I too feel that stunting the growth of a tree is wrong, but on other hand, isnt this special art helping atleast the trees survive in citites, with limited space to plant them on the ground.

Do tell me what is your opininon on this.

Ekka · 20th October 2007, 01:54 PM

Well, how could one say right or wrong, it just is.

My wife used to do bonsais, it's a hobby thing and there's a whole shaded area in our botanical gardens featuring some superb bonsais.

Bonsais are a lot of care and nuturing. The shallow roots require regular spraying and watering and there's continual root pruning along with canopy snipping and wiring.

There's many styles, formal, swept etc and to a degree is an art. My opinion is go for it, if it's your thing and you have the time, they can be very spectacular with roots growing over mossy rocks etc.

Underwor · 20th October 2007, 05:13 PM

They also make a great teaching tool. You can easily show how the tree responds to different types of pruning cuts, both shoot and root. It is also easier to carry these into class. I have 2 that are about 20 years old and one in the neighborhood of 12 years.

Ekka · 20th October 2007, 06:57 PM

Well Bob, lets see them, got a pic?

mdvaden · 21st October 2007, 02:14 AM

Hey Ekka... time for another page !!!

Atula...

It happens in nature. I see trees constrained in small amounts of soil when I hike up this rock - Beacon Rock: not much soil up there at all. The trees don't live too long up there...

http://www.mdvaden.com/beacon_rock.shtml

There are medium trees and stunted trees and windswept trees. Not quite as tiny as man-made bonsai, but still a natural version of restricted roots and growth.

It's not just an accident that I put a statement about "blending lessons from nature with landscape technology" on my home page.

1. Now, on that BEACON ROCK page, go to the bottom of the page and click the right photo album link for Oregon and the Columbia river Gorge.

2. Go to about #49 and click the image to enlarge.

3. Next - careful - look a ways under the image - even below the table of EXIF data. There will be tiny text that says "original" - click that text link "original" for a full-screen image and check out how big the rock is. You can see the tiny metal rails for the trail. Anyway, it give a better idea of how much rock is up there, and how little soil there must be for the trees to grow in. Most vegetation is growing in small cracks and crevices.

Have you heard of arborsculpture?

First, go to this other page of mine. It has an image of a natural occurance of merged or grafted trunks...

Arborsculpture, Pruning. Tree. Trees. M. D. Vaden. Portland.

Next, be sure to visit the links on that page to head over to the Wikipedia article on Arborsculpture.

So, with that all said and written, I think that nature already does this stuff, and man just tinkers with it in various ways.

As long as a tree will grow in a pot, it can't be unnatural, because it's genetics are natural, its growth cell division is natural, it's foliage is natural, and they smell natural.

It wouldn't be the "norm" or average thing to witness in natural settings, but it is not totally contrary to what can be found in natural settings.

Ekka · 21st October 2007, 03:32 AM

That Beacon_rock page is not working or something

atula · 21st October 2007, 03:56 AM

mdvaden...I could not open the first link..saw the second one and I absolutely love the way you have explained the whole thing about bonsais...
to tell the truth...being a father's daughter, I never can think of him doing something believed to be wrong...especially when it is through him that I have recieved the love for trees...
so the way you put it suits me...I like the line...'that nature already does this stuff, and man just tinkers with it in various ways.'

Thanks

SageMother · 21st October 2007, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atula

My father has got many bonsais..of common Indian trees. There are ficuses, oranges, bouganvilia, pomegranate, tamarind etc.etc.
While growing up i used to live these minni trees and see them bloom or when oranges ripened in the orange tree. But then there are so many people who just dont think this is correct.
At one hand I too feel that stunting the growth of a tree is wrong, but on other hand, isnt this special art helping atleast the trees survive in citites, with limited space to plant them on the ground.

Do tell me what is your opininon on this.

I don't see anything wrong with Bonsai. It is an art form with a rich tradition, and isn't much different from espalier or other training techniques.

ninikins · 21st October 2007, 09:11 AM

I think bonsais are beautiful and it's such an art form. The tree gets so much attention and care, I can't see how there could be anything wrong with that.

mdvaden · 21st October 2007, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atula

mdvaden...I could not open the first link..saw the second one and I absolutely love the way you have explained the whole thing about bonsais...
to tell the truth...being a father's daughter, I never can think of him doing something believed to be wrong...especially when it is through him that I have recieved the love for trees...
so the way you put it suits me...I like the line...'that nature already does this stuff, and man just tinkers with it in various ways.'

Thanks

Messed up the link. If you typed it as seen, it would work, but the embedded hyperlink had a 2nd .com and should have had .shtml

Beacon Rock Hiking Trail, Trails. By Columbia River Windsurfing Gorge

Now that should work.

TrevMcRev · 22nd October 2007, 04:26 PM

I've played with bonsais for about 15 years. Lost most of them when i lived in an upstairs flat though about 10 years ago. Still have 1 original though.

I like how many the things you do in bonsai are so arboriculturally incorrect

Like ripping big wounds down the side of a trunk to initiate decay to age the look of the tree, make it look like its been struck by lightening!

Of course, being an arborist i cant bring myself to do alot of those sort of things.

I tend to do minimal invasive stuff to em.

atula · 23rd October 2007, 06:02 AM

My favorite bonsai among my father's collection is one which he plated when I was born.
It is a specail kind of a tamarind tree that is only found in certain central parts of India. I have seen the tree grow, and form ariel roots.
The best part about this tree is during winter here in Indai i.e. by Novembr it sheds all its leaves and looks as if it is dead. Then during spring around feb march you can see tiny shoot buds coming out...
I'll ask my father to take a pic and then post it here for you guys.

mdvaden · 23rd October 2007, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrevMcRev

I've played with bonsais for about 15 years. Lost most of them when i lived in an upstairs flat though about 10 years ago. Still have 1 original though.

I like how many the things you do in bonsai are so arboriculturally incorrect

Like ripping big wounds down the side of a trunk to initiate decay to age the look of the tree, make it look like its been struck by lightening!

Of course, being an arborist i cant bring myself to do alot of those sort of things.

I tend to do minimal invasive stuff to em.

The community college in Portland where I took landscape classes with tree care classes, had an actual "Bonsai Master" Masahiro Furukawa who taught bonsai there.

Most common comment if we didn't get it right "notsogood"

I recall stripping all the bark off of a limb to get the bleached deadwood.

Great class though. I apply stuff like that in my work.

This Mt. Fuji, here, utilized the elevated canopy in front to view in, with a slightly lower canopy in back - that's from my class experience...

Mt. Fuji Japanese Flowering Cherry

For design plans, I use the principle that no two stems are located on the same X or Y axis when practical...

http://www.mdvaden.com/documents/triangles.doc

Again, this came from my bonsai class.

SageMother · 23rd October 2007, 06:32 PM

Bonsai is great for people who live in small spaces or have no ground level yard. They can thrive on a terrace in the city, or grace a special room inside, so they still have value. Nothing wrong with that.

Underwor · 23rd October 2007, 07:57 PM

Here is a link to a picture of the Ulmus pumila about 5 years ago I think. It is in the cooler for the winter. Will send a new pic when it leafs out next spring.

Bob

http://165.234.175.12/photos/Arbor/Bonsai_elm_BU.jpg

TTHip · 5th November 2007, 11:10 AM

i like the bonsai as a space saver and am able to grow different types of trees....

i travel quite a bit and collect tree seeds.......other people give me seeds too....i have begun bonsaing these trees because they won't live where i am located....

now i need a greenhouse or the living-room will have all of the windows full....

playfordtree · 5th November 2007, 10:29 PM

Apparently the Chinese see bonsai's as bad feng shui.

Something to do with stunted growth, and that the owner will also have stunted emotional growth??

Could just be due to the fact that the chinese hate the japanese and they are jealous they didnt think of it first.

Myself i think they look great, and make a great gift.
Theres nothing like giving a living gift, especially to kids.

20th October 2007, 04:06 AM	#1 (permalink)
atula Sappling Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: India Posts: 20	Bonsais..good or bad? My father has got many bonsais..of common Indian trees. There are ficuses, oranges, bouganvilia, pomegranate, tamarind etc.etc. While growing up i used to live these minni trees and see them bloom or when oranges ripened in the orange tree. But then there are so many people who just dont think this is correct. At one hand I too feel that stunting the growth of a tree is wrong, but on other hand, isnt this special art helping atleast the trees survive in citites, with limited space to plant them on the ground. Do tell me what is your opininon on this.

20th October 2007, 01:54 PM	#2 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,933	Re: Bonsais..good or bad? Well, how could one say right or wrong, it just is. My wife used to do bonsais, it's a hobby thing and there's a whole shaded area in our botanical gardens featuring some superb bonsais. Bonsais are a lot of care and nuturing. The shallow roots require regular spraying and watering and there's continual root pruning along with canopy snipping and wiring. There's many styles, formal, swept etc and to a degree is an art. My opinion is go for it, if it's your thing and you have the time, they can be very spectacular with roots growing over mossy rocks etc. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

20th October 2007, 05:13 PM	#3 (permalink)
Underwor Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: North Dakota Posts: 50	Re: Bonsais..good or bad? They also make a great teaching tool. You can easily show how the tree responds to different types of pruning cuts, both shoot and root. It is also easier to carry these into class. I have 2 that are about 20 years old and one in the neighborhood of 12 years. __________________ Bob Underwood, Associate Professor of Forestry ND School of Forestry Minot State University - Bottineau Campus Bottineau, North Dakota

20th October 2007, 06:57 PM	#4 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,933	Re: Bonsais..good or bad? Well Bob, lets see them, got a pic? __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

21st October 2007, 02:14 AM	#5 (permalink)
mdvaden Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 543	Re: Bonsais..good or bad? Hey Ekka... time for another page !!! Atula... It happens in nature. I see trees constrained in small amounts of soil when I hike up this rock - Beacon Rock: not much soil up there at all. The trees don't live too long up there... http://www.mdvaden.com/beacon_rock.shtml There are medium trees and stunted trees and windswept trees. Not quite as tiny as man-made bonsai, but still a natural version of restricted roots and growth. It's not just an accident that I put a statement about "blending lessons from nature with landscape technology" on my home page. 1. Now, on that BEACON ROCK page, go to the bottom of the page and click the right photo album link for Oregon and the Columbia river Gorge. 2. Go to about #49 and click the image to enlarge. 3. Next - careful - look a ways under the image - even below the table of EXIF data. There will be tiny text that says "original" - click that text link "original" for a full-screen image and check out how big the rock is. You can see the tiny metal rails for the trail. Anyway, it give a better idea of how much rock is up there, and how little soil there must be for the trees to grow in. Most vegetation is growing in small cracks and crevices. Have you heard of arborsculpture? First, go to this other page of mine. It has an image of a natural occurance of merged or grafted trunks... Arborsculpture, Pruning. Tree. Trees. M. D. Vaden. Portland. Next, be sure to visit the links on that page to head over to the Wikipedia article on Arborsculpture. So, with that all said and written, I think that nature already does this stuff, and man just tinkers with it in various ways. As long as a tree will grow in a pot, it can't be unnatural, because it's genetics are natural, its growth cell division is natural, it's foliage is natural, and they smell natural. It wouldn't be the "norm" or average thing to witness in natural settings, but it is not totally contrary to what can be found in natural settings. __________________ ____________________________________ Grove of Redwood TITANS Oregon BIGOOT trap

21st October 2007, 03:32 AM	#6 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,933	Re: Bonsais..good or bad? That Beacon_rock page is not working or something __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

21st October 2007, 03:56 AM	#7 (permalink)
atula Sappling Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: India Posts: 20	Re: Bonsais..good or bad? mdvaden...I could not open the first link..saw the second one and I absolutely love the way you have explained the whole thing about bonsais... to tell the truth...being a father's daughter, I never can think of him doing something believed to be wrong...especially when it is through him that I have recieved the love for trees... so the way you put it suits me...I like the line...'that nature already does this stuff, and man just tinkers with it in various ways.' Thanks

21st October 2007, 09:11 AM	#9 (permalink)
ninikins Sappling Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: holland Posts: 11	Re: Bonsais..good or bad? I think bonsais are beautiful and it's such an art form. The tree gets so much attention and care, I can't see how there could be anything wrong with that.

22nd October 2007, 04:26 PM	#11 (permalink)
TrevMcRev Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 734	Re: Bonsais..good or bad? I've played with bonsais for about 15 years. Lost most of them when i lived in an upstairs flat though about 10 years ago. Still have 1 original though. I like how many the things you do in bonsai are so arboriculturally incorrect Like ripping big wounds down the side of a trunk to initiate decay to age the look of the tree, make it look like its been struck by lightening! Of course, being an arborist i cant bring myself to do alot of those sort of things. I tend to do minimal invasive stuff to em. __________________ Melbourne Arborist, Total Tree Care, Pruning, Tree and Stump Removal

23rd October 2007, 06:02 AM	#12 (permalink)
atula Sappling Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: India Posts: 20	Re: Bonsais..good or bad? My favorite bonsai among my father's collection is one which he plated when I was born. It is a specail kind of a tamarind tree that is only found in certain central parts of India. I have seen the tree grow, and form ariel roots. The best part about this tree is during winter here in Indai i.e. by Novembr it sheds all its leaves and looks as if it is dead. Then during spring around feb march you can see tiny shoot buds coming out... I'll ask my father to take a pic and then post it here for you guys.

23rd October 2007, 06:32 PM	#14 (permalink)
SageMother Sappling Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 17	Re: Bonsais..good or bad? Bonsai is great for people who live in small spaces or have no ground level yard. They can thrive on a terrace in the city, or grace a special room inside, so they still have value. Nothing wrong with that.

23rd October 2007, 07:57 PM	#15 (permalink)
Underwor Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: North Dakota Posts: 50	Re: Bonsais..good or bad? Here is a link to a picture of the Ulmus pumila about 5 years ago I think. It is in the cooler for the winter. Will send a new pic when it leafs out next spring. Bob http://165.234.175.12/photos/Arbor/Bonsai_elm_BU.jpg __________________ Bob Underwood, Associate Professor of Forestry ND School of Forestry Minot State University - Bottineau Campus Bottineau, North Dakota

5th November 2007, 11:10 AM	#16 (permalink)
TTHip Sappling Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 7	Re: Bonsais..good or bad? i like the bonsai as a space saver and am able to grow different types of trees.... i travel quite a bit and collect tree seeds.......other people give me seeds too....i have begun bonsaing these trees because they won't live where i am located.... now i need a greenhouse or the living-room will have all of the windows full.... __________________ - in between evolution -

5th November 2007, 10:29 PM	#17 (permalink)
playfordtree Mature tree Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Adelaide Australia Posts: 340	Re: Bonsais..good or bad? Apparently the Chinese see bonsai's as bad feng shui. Something to do with stunted growth, and that the owner will also have stunted emotional growth?? Could just be due to the fact that the chinese hate the japanese and they are jealous they didnt think of it first. Myself i think they look great, and make a great gift. Theres nothing like giving a living gift, especially to kids. __________________ I Drink Therefore I am.