Blown over tree, arb coroners enquiry please

Ekka · 6th February 2007, 02:44 AM

Went out to bid on a blown over grey gum (euc major).

Now I took some pics and noted some specific things for a viewers.

1, no decay, fungus, hollows or fruiting bodies present.

2, unusual looking powdery stuff in hole is crusher dust (crushed blue gravel powder used as compacted base under concrete/pavers etc)

3, lump of concrete with fence pole

4, tree was very dry, no moisture or signs of sap drips etc

5, bugger all uphill roots

6, ground very dry and crumbly

7, root flare indicative of "about right" depth

The story is about Thursday - Friday in some wind we had it blew over. Apparently prior it developed bit of a lean but hey ... no-one did any investigative work (that cost money).

However had you have been called out to investigate the problem (like the other one further up behind it) what would you have diagnosed?

What if you said it was OK?

What if you said it was not OK and booked it in for removal this week and it fell over?

What if you were up it and it fell over?

What's with all the crusher dust and crap under it? An ole bloke has been living there for years doesn't know much about it.

These are the things that ran through my head. The other one up the back is exactly the same. Crikey, you want to climb it now???

Lets see what we got in this post mortem.

Sean Freeman · 6th February 2007, 04:35 AM

Nice one Ekka, first some caveats;
--its virtually impossible to make accurate appraisals from photos, we get asked to do lots of times, to quote from a photo to make diagnosis etc...
--the colours and definition is never enough to be certain

But as always you raise some great points that need to be thought about and addressed.

Would I have said it was OK?....We would all get asked this question many times every week, is my tree safe, can you make it safe(er) will it stand up to a blow?

Nobody can ever say a tree is safe, every tree even the most healthy vital specimen will fail in the right (or wrong) circumstances, they are a natural system, and natural systems fail. If you start assuring cliants that a tree is safe you will get yourself and them into trouble sooner or later. All trees have some defects in them that too is part of being a natural system, how important those defects are for the client/owner relates to target..no target no problem. Your tree clearly had a target the neighbours yard and presumably potentially the people who use that yard. (You can calc real figures for target occupancy, value, impact potential and risk of harm but maybe thats for another thread.)

There are some things that I think I see in the photos so I'll point those out.

On the stem of the fallen tree there is a area of altered bark Circled in red, not sure if this was present before the fall, but it certainly looks like a large injury?

P2050002-1i.JPG

The appearance of the fibres that have failed, their colour and the type of fracture strongly suggest fungal decay to me. The variety of brown rots we get in our Eucs are often very hard to pick, you don't always see mycelium in the wood tissue, and you don? always get fruiting bodies particularly if the environment has been dry.

P2050004-1i.JPG

There's a second odd looking patch on the stem just above ground level, which also suggests decay.

P2050007-1i.JPG

The lack of a root crown formation at the point at which (what should be) the buttress roots appear, and the appearance of a continuation of the stem diameter above the roots, below them leads me to suggest despite the appearance of being properly planted the tree has been buried by fill.

Root crown proper and the real buttress roots have died and decayed and the adventitious roots have maintained a canopy but not been able to support the tree under wind loading.

Adventitious roots.JPG

This is all supposition but I have seen this very same event numerous times at Currumbin Hill over a year ago. Fill buried trees after 10 - 15yrs can be very hard to pick, the canopy remains vital and healthy looking

SF

Ekka · 6th February 2007, 12:05 PM

I would go with everything you have said. If you look in the hole there's a substancial amount of trunk left in there deep.

When you see blow overs like that USUALLY you see the root plate go over, a whole bundle of roots and soil and USUALLY it displays no tap root with gums like this.

The only thing that is hard to prove or debate-able is brown rot, most of the time you will see a slight white tinge or spotting. The natural colour of the grey gum innards is the colour you have circled. Is there a good way to easily field test brown rot?

The bigger gum behind it is going to go over too soo.

The large wound is old but the tree up the back has exactly the same wound. My hunch is machinery damage from years ago. This house is in Annerley so could be @60 years old easily but the wounds I do not think are that old. So not sure what happened there.

Also, the top 300mm to 400mm of soil is builders rubble and washed down junk. There were some old busted roots well under that fence posts concrete pour so they would have been the original flare maybe 500mm deep.

Pretty good stuff, I always like to check out blow overs and see what gives so you can get better a predicting others.

mdvaden · 7th February 2007, 11:09 PM

So it looks like it has new root damage, and old root damage, and possible some obstacle in the soil interfered with development of root growth downward.

How much stone is in the soil - any?

Ekka · 7th February 2007, 11:32 PM

Not much stone ... soil is well crumbly ... loose sort of and lots of cracker dust.

6th February 2007, 12:05 PM	#3 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,606	I would go with everything you have said. If you look in the hole there's a substancial amount of trunk left in there deep. When you see blow overs like that USUALLY you see the root plate go over, a whole bundle of roots and soil and USUALLY it displays no tap root with gums like this. The only thing that is hard to prove or debate-able is brown rot, most of the time you will see a slight white tinge or spotting. The natural colour of the grey gum innards is the colour you have circled. Is there a good way to easily field test brown rot? The bigger gum behind it is going to go over too soo. The large wound is old but the tree up the back has exactly the same wound. My hunch is machinery damage from years ago. This house is in Annerley so could be @60 years old easily but the wounds I do not think are that old. So not sure what happened there. Also, the top 300mm to 400mm of soil is builders rubble and washed down junk. There were some old busted roots well under that fence posts concrete pour so they would have been the original flare maybe 500mm deep. Pretty good stuff, I always like to check out blow overs and see what gives so you can get better a predicting others. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

7th February 2007, 11:09 PM	#4 (permalink)
mdvaden Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 564	So it looks like it has new root damage, and old root damage, and possible some obstacle in the soil interfered with development of root growth downward. How much stone is in the soil - any? __________________ ____________________________________ Grove of Redwood TITANS Oregon BIGOOT trap

7th February 2007, 11:32 PM	#5 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,606	Not much stone ... soil is well crumbly ... loose sort of and lots of cracker dust. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

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6th February 2007, 04:35 AM	#2 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,649	Nice one Ekka, first some caveats; --its virtually impossible to make accurate appraisals from photos, we get asked to do lots of times, to quote from a photo to make diagnosis etc... --the colours and definition is never enough to be certain But as always you raise some great points that need to be thought about and addressed. Would I have said it was OK?....We would all get asked this question many times every week, is my tree safe, can you make it safe(er) will it stand up to a blow? Nobody can ever say a tree is safe, every tree even the most healthy vital specimen will fail in the right (or wrong) circumstances, they are a natural system, and natural systems fail. If you start assuring cliants that a tree is safe you will get yourself and them into trouble sooner or later. All trees have some defects in them that too is part of being a natural system, how important those defects are for the client/owner relates to target..no target no problem. Your tree clearly had a target the neighbours yard and presumably potentially the people who use that yard. (You can calc real figures for target occupancy, value, impact potential and risk of harm but maybe thats for another thread.) There are some things that I think I see in the photos so I'll point those out. On the stem of the fallen tree there is a area of altered bark Circled in red, not sure if this was present before the fall, but it certainly looks like a large injury? P2050002-1i.JPG The appearance of the fibres that have failed, their colour and the type of fracture strongly suggest fungal decay to me. The variety of brown rots we get in our Eucs are often very hard to pick, you don't always see mycelium in the wood tissue, and you don? always get fruiting bodies particularly if the environment has been dry. P2050004-1i.JPG There's a second odd looking patch on the stem just above ground level, which also suggests decay. P2050007-1i.JPG The lack of a root crown formation at the point at which (what should be) the buttress roots appear, and the appearance of a continuation of the stem diameter above the roots, below them leads me to suggest despite the appearance of being properly planted the tree has been buried by fill. Root crown proper and the real buttress roots have died and decayed and the adventitious roots have maintained a canopy but not been able to support the tree under wind loading. Adventitious roots.JPG This is all supposition but I have seen this very same event numerous times at Currumbin Hill over a year ago. Fill buried trees after 10 - 15yrs can be very hard to pick, the canopy remains vital and healthy looking SF