Badly Damaged Live Oak - Requesting Opinions

Chris in Dallas

This is a Live Oak in my neighborhood. The heavy snow we just had here pulled one of the co-dominant stems apart. Clearly the tree is now unbalanced, but the HO would like to save the remainder. I have a scheme in mind for a static cable and a ground-supported post (cable would restrain movement to the axis of the post). But, I'm not sure that the attempt should even be made.

I'm confident of the structural stability of the cable and brace plan, but I'd like some other opinions on the very idea of structurally preserving the remainder of the tree. If the other half of the damaged stem is removed, the tree would be off-balance even more, almost to the point that the whole tree may as well be removed.

Anyhoo, what do you think?

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Chris in Dallas

I apologize, but although I've been a forum member for a good while, this is my first post here. I am primarily a licensed structural engineer, and secondarily an arborist of selective expertise: I stick to pruning, structural reinforcement, and removals, and know very well what I'm doing in these regards (ANSI A300). I don't treat diseases, and know my limits in their diagnosis. I don't mind calling in an experienced ISA certified arborist for something beyond me, and I definitely call someone else for air spade root flare exposures (tried this by hand once, not again).

I'm also very careful about oak wilt, and keep up with the research on that. I live in a neighborhood in NE Dallas of about 500 homes, and I watch the trees here carefully, and don't care to expand my work beyond.

The above tree is a real heartbreaker. I was shook the snow from our personal live oak from 3:30 pm to 11:30 pm to prevent this from happening. Only had one 2" branch break, which was beyond the reach of me on a 12' A frame ladder with my 21' Silky Hayauchi with hook.

Obviously the above will need a whole can of Tree Kote soon if it is to be preserved.

I'm looking forward to the opinions of some of the knowledgeable folks here.

Eric Frei

For an area that gets snow it sure has a bad form with those arching laterals.

I dont like it, one bit, and I know that emotions for some run their lives, that's why we have a planet full of extremists.

Sure, you could cable and prune to your hearts content, but personally i'd be getting rid of it. On the other hand if you wanted to pay me no matter what to try to save it, sure I'll take your money and do a good job.... after you sign all the waivers.

Then again some people reckon you lop the shit out of it (to nodes ) and re-establish a new crown. Whatever you fancy but you asked my opinion, which is get rid of it.

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Chris in Dallas

Thanks, Ekka. You are right, I did ask your opinion, and I appreciate your response. As to this being an area that gets snow, well, normally you'd be wrong there. This was an all time record snowfall, by a long way. It caught everyone off guard (I was somewhat mentally prepared, having lived six years in eastern Washington state and all years prior in NC).

I'm also tempted to say get rid of it, but she really wants to keep it there, especially as she is about to put the house on the market.

I hear you about the waivers. If I can get a few more opinions, I'll be more confident in my recommendation to her.

Thanks again.

dov

The whole balance of the tree is gone - it does have huge laterals as Ekka said. The strength of what is left on the right hand side of the first picture is enormously compromised (see also the hole in the trunk there at the top of the wound) and there would seem to be nothing to stop it from taking out part of the brick building when it goes.

Taking away the rest of the damaged half of the tree and cutting back the remainder to give a bit more balance is just way too much of a reduction for secure healthy regrowth.

I'm afraid I have to agree with Ekka, the tree doesn't look really viable anymore and should be removed for safety.

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newguy18

Its a prime candadite for removal,nothing will save the tree for longer than a year,the time for cabling and pruning was before the tree failed and became that compromised,if they refuse removal,walk away,no amount of money is worth the liability.

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old schooler

Jeff Darby

a time to plant, a time to nurture, a time to remove.

This damaged tree is in my opinion has been damaged to the point where it is prudent to remove.

JayD

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Chris in Dallas

dov, newguy18, and JayD: My sincere thanks for your thoughtful responses. It seems the consensus is overwhelming, and goes to confirm what I was feeling. Newguy18 is correct that the time for cabling has passed.

I now have to deliver the news to my neighbor - and she will be crushed. Feels as though I'm telling someone their favorite dog has been killed.

But, I'll see if I can convince her to plant a new one that I will promise to look after.

Again, thank you. If I can repay you with some structural engineering knowledge, feel free to pm me.

jomoco

Good call guys, put it out of it's misery, safely!

jomoco

Eric Frei

Wow, none of us have been sledged by tree huggers. ..... yet.

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Red Dot

Hi mate,

Looking at the [1st photo], the crown almost half gone with asymmetrical crown remains. If possible further prune off the snapped co-dominant trunk
[3rd photo] to the trunk collar. Might consider hard-pruning by shortening the asymmetrical crown to balance the overall form. Sametime, advice the owner to plant new tree before the existing tree to be remove in later years.

Cheers.

Eric Frei

The before pic



Artists impression of after pic

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Chris in Dallas

And what is your opinion of the results of that hard pruning, Ekka?

Chris in Dallas

What about Red Dot's idea of a hard prune (as very nicely depicted by Ekka), combined with a new planting to eventually replace it? The remainder of the broken stem is the one that is really threatening the structure (garage). That would be removed.

At least, then, there would be something in place. The remainder of the tree would be removed once the newly planted tree was well-established.

Opinions. please?

jomoco

So deep in the heart of Texas, the home of texas root rot(Armillaria), that live oaks are very susceptible to?

I'd replant with a magnolia grandiflora(Armillaria resistant), with beautiful very large white flowers in season.

jomoco

Chris in Dallas

We have a lot of magnolias in the neighborhood, and this house has 3 live oaks in the front that are repairable, so maybe that would be a good choice. I suppose that even if the plan was to take the rest of the tree down in two years, that might not actually happen with the new homeowner, and the tree (what remained of it) might be a real hazard by then.

So your advice is to remove it all now, I presume?

jomoco

In my humble opinion?

Absolutely.

jomoco

Chris in Dallas

Thanks, Jomoco.

kel

Can't believe no ones suggested filling it with concrete.

Eric Frei

Nah, we're not as advanced as the former director of horticulture New Delhi Council India.

Cavity cleaning| insert tubes| fungicide| burning

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stirmantrees

quick application of a large saw cross-cut test and all will be well.

i think about what happens when you as the kind and resourceful neighbor who loves trees and your friends/neighbors helps them.

and then the tree blows over/cable snaps/ pokes hole in roof/ kills grandkid/ etc,etc.

not good. except for the lawyers

sometimes things like that can ruin relationships as well.
late to the game but its my 2cents

Chris in Dallas

No, that makes sense. I like to play it safe - my engineering ethics apply to my tree work as well.

Farawaytree

Hi there Chris in Dallas,
It can be a hard call, sometimes, to remove a very mature tree, thats beautiful, thats taken a long time to grow, etc.
Unfortunately, rather than preserve this tree, you have to think of your own preservation here! And as the others have pointed out, Litigation has us all running for cover these days, so we need to be careful.
I come across this situation a lot and am asked for an opinion.(we have a lot of big tree's in Gippsland, Victoria, Australia)
Safety is always Number 1 in my book and I take the time to look at all the angles. Like you are doing now.
The other thing I try & relay to people is, why not plant another tree!
Sure, it will not grow to be a giant in your lifetime but neither did the tree that you are now enjoying. Someone else planted it, sometime ago!
Sometimes that really helps people's decision making.
I see just one big tree in the yard in your pics. I noticed the child swing which could be replaced with a frame swing that they can take with them when they go (If still in use?)
Why not suggest to your Client that they plant another tree (or 2 etc) and beautify their property for the up coming sale?
It would be attractive and potential buyers can see the trees will grow up during their time at the property?
Also point out that when they go to buy again they will be able to look for a property with mature tree's on it?
If you remove the tree and stump grind it, you can plant another tree there and mulch it, along with 1 or 2 others placed inthe yard.

That is what I think Chris.
Over to you.
How is the situation panning out for you?
Love to hear from you.
Farawaytree.

newguy18

Is that tree still there?I still stand by my first opinion,it should be removed,it has cavities,one which seems to go through the trunk into the ground,which maybe effecting the root system,if the roots aren't rotten,i'd be suprised.

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Farawaytree

Hi Newguy18,
I've jst logged on today after not posting for awhile.
I"m sure we are all pretty much in agreement with you about this tree.
How could you possibly trust the current stability (Lack of it) of this tree?
However not all of us are as confident as you and some of the others,
that's why a lot of people post here because they know they can find good advice from fella's like yourself.
As I posted earlier, Tree World is a wonderful place
and we can be happy that we have such experienced and wise operators amongst us!
So keep posting and communicating Newguy18.
We love you.
Farawaytree

newguy18

I'm just knowledgable about structile integrity as i'm a specialist in removals,i have done alot of dead tree removals,some were dead 10-15 years,so you have to know exactly what your working with,when and if to guy it,straps and how to rig of a dead spar.However if there was a way to save it and keep it safely i would have suggested so but there clearly is not.Thanks for posting and stay in touch,we can show people like you and many others the right way to go about trees,if you ever find yourself with a dead removal your unsure,pm me and besure to send me some pics so i can steer you right.

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old schooler

djbohn

I agree with all of above.
EXCEPT:
You don't need to. I don't think it'll topple. It looks unbalanced, but I think it would hold. I would let it go. Do something crazy & graft a limb to it.