Arborists, what's wrong with this picture?

Ekka · 23rd May 2007, 03:41 PM

Have a look and let me know, I was thinking of advertising this method and cleaning up in this town ... people are "Q'ing" up for this, they love it.

Many times they say it had to be done, coz the tree was dangerous.

Dunno. I have been driving past these trees for 15 years and never seen anything dangerous but then again, I didn't pull over to inspect and analyse like a paid consultant should.

Anyway, let me know, do you think I could use them as a huge billboard like they are now, tens of thousands of people go past this busy place a day, right opposite a shop entrance and on a bad set of lights that most people catch red.

Tree Machine · 23rd May 2007, 04:28 PM

Ughhhhh!

a_lopa · 23rd May 2007, 04:34 PM

You would have no shame leaving a job like that wether you knew it was wrong or not,i bet the clients are happy with the job

Ekka · 23rd May 2007, 04:47 PM

Oh, I'm sorry.

I forgot to load up this picture.

Now answer the question, what is wrong with this picture?

JayD · 23rd May 2007, 04:53 PM

Disgusting!...and to think those bozo's were paid for that statement in abomination!!!.

When the shyte hits the fan in your town boy it's going to splater!

a_lopa · 23rd May 2007, 05:35 PM

Unbeleivable!!!!

TreeCo · 24th May 2007, 12:07 AM

Maybe they specialize in amputations! LOL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Oh, I'm sorry.

I forgot to load up this picture.

Now answer the question, what is wrong with this picture?

TrevMcRev · 24th May 2007, 10:04 AM

Thats a bloody disgrace

Blatant Negligence.

I'd hate to go to that place as a patient.

How thourough is their diagnosis going to be?
How drastic and harmful is their treatment going to be?
What effect will it have on my long term health?
Will the treatment be more harmfull than the percieved initial problem?

osb_mail · 24th May 2007, 02:00 PM

Hey they did leave some foliage on the trees give them some credit around here they don t even do that . [Those tree look like hell] .

JohN Dee · 24th May 2007, 03:28 PM

Mate that is absolutely bullshit treework, that reflects back on us to the standard type of Arborists. The blokes that did that need to be shot.

I have those photos of that gum I was telling you about. Its a Eucalyptus resinifera - Red Mahogany. I took the photos at night on my way to tafe so bear with me for the quality. This kind of thing is happening every down here and I'm not talking private land its on blood friggin council land! And they're getting away with it because they are the authority body.

Ekka · 24th May 2007, 08:43 PM

Righto, I'm gonna email that dumb ass council.

Guys, how about we also send these to Kurt at Arbor Age, lets have a huge dummy spit. The govt is out of control (but I've known that for years).

a_lopa · 24th May 2007, 09:11 PM

Yeah they should know better.

Tree Machine · 25th May 2007, 12:08 AM

This may be a really stupid question, but its there ANY benefit or advantage to anyone or anything by mutilating trees in such a way.

We need a council that oversees, hunts down and generously offers a fair resolution to what's been done...."Your balls, or your bucket truck."

I think they would get it.

TrevMcRev · 25th May 2007, 12:11 AM

Down here it'll still happen on private property but i cant say ive seen this sort of crap going on on council/government land.

Ekka · 25th May 2007, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrevMcRev

Down here it'll still happen on private property but i cant say ive seen this sort of crap going on on council/government land.

It is crap, and the chase is on for answers. So far now I have the guys name who was responsible for co-ordinating the job from Q-Build. He hasn't returned my call yet so again today I will try. Then I'll also write to the local BCC councillor for the area showing the inadequacies of their local law on vegetation protection and the typical type of pruning performed by contractors.

No escape on this one. Most important is to find out what company did it, that is vital.

DRANO · 25th May 2007, 12:11 PM

another surgery with a stub mabey they think they are pollard pruning lol!!drano

yooper · 25th May 2007, 12:34 PM

Dont they look like the trees in a monkey cage at a zoo.......There just missing the monkeys and the bars!!!

Sean Freeman · 25th May 2007, 12:38 PM

Yooper the monkeys have been and gone and taken their chainsaws with them

JohN Dee · 25th May 2007, 07:38 PM

This is a Euc. from next door to the job we were doing today. Completely hatracked and epicormics coming up like a muthaluva. I was going to ask the neighbours if they payed for it or they had done it themselves, but nobody was home.

TrevMcRev · 25th May 2007, 10:44 PM

They probly think its "bushin up just great"

Ekka · 25th May 2007, 11:06 PM

Trev, that's the exact words they use ... "it'll bush up"

An update.

Had a chat with a guy called Glen from Q-Build today. Nice bloke. He was most intrugued by the whole event actually.

Says he'll have a look at the file on Monday and see what the heck is going on.

He stressed that Q-Build contractors are vetted for licences, insurances, OHS etc. I jumped at that opportunity to point out that there was no licence etc for our job and any old hack can have a go, and any ole hack can join the QAA plus get insurance!

So we discussed that a bit, and the conversation went down the track that maybe the contractor delivered to job spec as instructed.

Which raised the next problem, who was putting the spec on the job, what was the criteria and was the tree professionally assessed or did some "tree lopper" reckon it needed some "bushing up"?

So he's going back to the first root of the problem, how it was handled, who wrote the spec, were they qualified to write the spec and the crunch was that no matter who the contractor was even if the spec suggested malpractice they should have waved the red flag and discussed it. But the fact is they bid on the job so had the chance prior to the hacking.

I drew a parallel to an unqualified guy drawing a building plan that wasn't to regulation and then a builder building a condemned dangerous illegal structure. Was that builder competent and should that builder have been aware of what the regs are and refused to build the structure? "Of course", he replied.

So, we will get to the bottom of this.

JayD · 27th May 2007, 01:26 PM

Hi All,
Here's some more butchered trees,This ones located in Tuncurry nth NSW,why they just didn't remove it completely I don't know? And the one thats been hat racked is in Forster if memory serves me correct it in the Health Dept grounds I''l check next time I'm there.

yooper · 27th May 2007, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boa07

Yooper the monkeys have been and gone and taken their chainsaws with them

I think monkeys know better!!!!

They eat leaves...Dont they.

yooper · 27th May 2007, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayD

Hi All,
Here's some more butchered trees,This ones located in Tuncurry nth NSW,why they just didn't remove it completely I don't know? And the one thats been hat racked is in Forster if memory serves me correct it in the Health Dept grounds I''l check next time I'm there.

That first photo is pretty odd. I think it will bush out though

.What kind of tree is that? I wonder if they call it 'oll stubby.

JohN Dee · 27th May 2007, 07:45 PM

Yooper, the first one is a Fig of some sort, the second is a Euc I believe.

Ekka · 30th May 2007, 05:45 PM

Right oh guys, lets get back on track here.

Today I spoke with Glen from Q-Build. He feels they have done nothing wrong and all their role was ... was to get the quotes and issue the job. They didn't write the job spec etc. They were simply relaying Queensland Health's request.

Now, who is suitably knowledgeable or qualified to set the spec and determine the pruning works at Queensland Health? Well, the office supervisor for the place of course. So premise supervisor tells Q-Build that they want the trees pruned off the roof and made shorter (at least 2m shorter) to make them safer.

So we follow the string of errors to the quote stage and it is here that no-one tells anyone what's going on is wrong either. In fact Glen from Q-Build told me the Brisbane Tree Services did the job, and their Level 3 arborist ought to know and the arborist re-inspected the job and is happy with what he did.

So, Q-Build pass the buck fully onto the tree company and wipe their hands of it. Glen got quite erky, reckons I should mind my own business and keep my nose out of theirs. LOL

That's OK, this is going to the local councillor for the area as typical buck passing govt BS and ArborAge and any other place I can get it published as a display of ignorance to tree care.

So, I rang Brisbane Tree Services. The owner doesn't have a copy of AS4373 and the Level 3 arborist is from Toowoomba ex council and has done a bit of this lopping work. The picture below is the tree services own yard and it's the current arborist who pruned their trees!

What started as bit of a hostile phone call with Yvonne ended up OK in the end with her being aware that their arborist is not working to AS4373 but she does the quotes.

So nowhere along this line of events is their a diligent person saying, "hey, this isn't right and here's what you need to do."

What have you got the whole length of this?

Well you tell me, I already know. All I hear is excuses and BS buck passing. And when you ask questions about things around here the govt is quick to label you some nosey trouble maker.

So, there it is in a nut shell. Where's responsibility? Where's accountability? Where's ya stinking BS standards?

The pictures below are taking from the road of Brisbane Tree Services premises.

For my own reference here's the link to ward councillor
http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/BCC:S...40903:pc=PC_36

TrevMcRev · 30th May 2007, 08:40 PM

Lopping AND burying the trunks of all those trees with mulch 1-2m deep

No Bloody Idea!

Ekka · 30th May 2007, 08:47 PM

Trev, it's not mulch, it's soil, scraped up from around the trees on the other side, little bit of mulch on top in some places.

a_lopa · 30th May 2007, 09:50 PM

They should practise what they preach,hows this from there site.Unbeleivable...

Brisbane Tree Services is dedicated to providing superior customer service and top quality tree care. We believe in the value of trees and that you value your trees. We make our evaluations and do our work according to industry standards that promote the health, safety and vigour of your trees.

Sean Freeman · 30th May 2007, 09:56 PM

Ok Ekka I'll grant you that is pretty darn bad, do you think they are undertaking some weird experiment that will form the basis of a journal article? No?.. me neither! What a shower Brisbane Tree Services are

, you could just about write a book based on the bad and harmful practices exhibited in those pics alone. What a joke tree services disservices more like

It is disappointing mate but to be honest not surprising, up here they would have dozed the trees to make more room to dump.

The key problem in all this as I see it is that QBuild have failed to meet their own standards of quality control. This is a very large and productive organisation that is envolved in building construction and maintenance throughout Queensland, in many different state government run and funded organisations, schools hospitals etc..

Unfortunately they have as an organisation not yet realised that there is a profession called Arboriculture and that Arborists can assist them in saving time and money in the management of all their tree related issues. They still have to overcome the anacronism of labelling all they tree works lopping, we as a profession need to be more active in raising awareness of correct work practices, basic (very basic) levels of service with minimum standards and measurable performance indicators.

The idea or attitude that simply lopping back problem trees is an acceptable practice is well and truely outdated, no successful high profile business would engage in the waste management practices of 50yrs ago, nor the work methods from that era, and there is no discussion or debate, everyone agrees that works even dirty and menial works have to be undertaken in accordance with the state and federal minimum standards yet this is still not the case when it comes to trees.

Why does an organisation with the profile of QBuild allow such substandard work to be undertaken by their subcontractor, simply because the information required for better decision making is not getting through to the appropriate decision makers.

How many of you have to explain in great detail what you mean by Arborist when asked what you do? Most of you I would quess, it is no different at higher levels of management in organisations like QBuild, sure some of the upper managers would have heard of Arborists, and tree surgeons.....but they are only needed for very expensive big projects with very valuable trees.....this day to day work has always been done by company X, and we're very happy with them, why rock the boat?

It doesn't take much to explain how the recurrent damaging work undertaken by loppers is fiscal madness for any buisness...let alone one as large as QBuild I can't even begin to imagine how many millions of $$'s are wasted each and every day across this state on unnecessary, inappropriate, damaging tree work for an organisation that big.

QBuild does understand risk management, and does take it very seriously not long back a child was injured swinging on a basketball hoop,as a result QBuild completed an audit of every single basketball structure in every state school in Queensland, literally thousands and thousands of static drop tests, each failure was removed and a fully engineered hoop structure put in place cost well make a quess and triple it!

Within every large corporation, business, organisation there is a level of management that fully understand what best management practice means and why it has to be the minimum standard, they understand risk management and prioritisation of works, these are the people that we need to communicate with, these are the people who want and need our expertise with trees.

Unfortunately there will always be others who do not understand or do not want to understand how to properly manage their trees, for them OH&S is not taken seriously, getting it done quick and cheap is the prime motivation, these people occupy positions in every business, and when they obstruct improvements and advances even very basic ones like stopping pointless wastefull damaging lopping it literally can drive you nuts

Slowly as more managers/decision makers are exposed to how Arboriculture can benefit them their business and the environment around them we will make progress...somedays its seems slower than others

23rd May 2007, 04:34 PM	#3
a_lopa Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,300	You would have no shame leaving a job like that wether you knew it was wrong or not,i bet the clients are happy with the job __________________ Drouin Tree Services and Excavator Hire \| Excavator Hire - Drouin and SE Gippsland

23rd May 2007, 04:53 PM	#5
JayD Moderator - Sponsor Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 1,432	Disgusting!...and to think those bozo's were paid for that statement in abomination!!!. When the shyte hits the fan in your town boy it's going to splater! __________________ Level 4 Arborist

23rd May 2007, 05:35 PM	#6
a_lopa Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,300	Unbeleivable!!!! __________________ Drouin Tree Services and Excavator Hire \| Excavator Hire - Drouin and SE Gippsland

24th May 2007, 10:04 AM	#8
TrevMcRev Sponsor Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 1,428	Thats a bloody disgrace Blatant Negligence. I'd hate to go to that place as a patient. How thourough is their diagnosis going to be? How drastic and harmful is their treatment going to be? What effect will it have on my long term health? Will the treatment be more harmfull than the percieved initial problem? __________________ Total Tree Care - Melbourne Arborist Reports & Consulting,Tree Pruning & Removal \| Elm Leaf Beetle Treatment Melbourne www.treegear.com.au - Australia's Best Value Arborist Supplies

24th May 2007, 08:43 PM	#11
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort & Seldom Wrong Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 9,764	Righto, I'm gonna email that dumb ass council. Guys, how about we also send these to Kurt at Arbor Age, lets have a huge dummy spit. The govt is out of control (but I've known that for years). __________________ TAS Training & Assessment Services\| Arb and Hort Training available here Free Online Tree Value Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online TPZ and SRZ AS4970-2009 Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online Tree Surface Area and Tree Volume Calculator by TreeWorld Free Tree and Green Industry Deep Link Directory ... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist, Tree and Arborist Reports \| Project Arborist

23rd May 2007, 04:28 PM	#2
Tree Machine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 919	Ughhhhh!

24th May 2007, 02:00 PM	#9
osb_mail Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: ohio Posts: 222	Hey they did leave some foliage on the trees give them some credit around here they don t even do that . [Those tree look like hell] .

24th May 2007, 09:11 PM	#12
a_lopa Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,300	Yeah they should know better. __________________ Drouin Tree Services and Excavator Hire \| Excavator Hire - Drouin and SE Gippsland

25th May 2007, 12:08 AM	#13
Tree Machine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 919	This may be a really stupid question, but its there ANY benefit or advantage to anyone or anything by mutilating trees in such a way. We need a council that oversees, hunts down and generously offers a fair resolution to what's been done...."Your balls, or your bucket truck." I think they would get it.

25th May 2007, 12:11 AM	#14
TrevMcRev Sponsor Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 1,428	Down here it'll still happen on private property but i cant say ive seen this sort of crap going on on council/government land. __________________ Total Tree Care - Melbourne Arborist Reports & Consulting,Tree Pruning & Removal \| Elm Leaf Beetle Treatment Melbourne www.treegear.com.au - Australia's Best Value Arborist Supplies

25th May 2007, 12:11 PM	#16
DRANO Sappling Join Date: May 2007 Location: VERMONT Posts: 25	another surgery with a stub mabey they think they are pollard pruning lol!!drano

25th May 2007, 12:34 PM	#17
yooper Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Upper Michigan U.S.A. Posts: 138	Dont they look like the trees in a monkey cage at a zoo.......There just missing the monkeys and the bars!!!

25th May 2007, 12:38 PM	#18
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 2,155	Yooper the monkeys have been and gone and taken their chainsaws with them __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran http://wanderingarborist.blogspot.com/ http://veterantreegroup.blogspot.com/ http://www.youtube.com/user/VeteranTreeGroup

25th May 2007, 10:44 PM	#20
TrevMcRev Sponsor Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 1,428	They probly think its "bushin up just great" __________________ Total Tree Care - Melbourne Arborist Reports & Consulting,Tree Pruning & Removal \| Elm Leaf Beetle Treatment Melbourne www.treegear.com.au - Australia's Best Value Arborist Supplies

25th May 2007, 11:06 PM	#21
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort & Seldom Wrong Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 9,764	Trev, that's the exact words they use ... "it'll bush up" An update. Had a chat with a guy called Glen from Q-Build today. Nice bloke. He was most intrugued by the whole event actually. Says he'll have a look at the file on Monday and see what the heck is going on. He stressed that Q-Build contractors are vetted for licences, insurances, OHS etc. I jumped at that opportunity to point out that there was no licence etc for our job and any old hack can have a go, and any ole hack can join the QAA plus get insurance! So we discussed that a bit, and the conversation went down the track that maybe the contractor delivered to job spec as instructed. Which raised the next problem, who was putting the spec on the job, what was the criteria and was the tree professionally assessed or did some "tree lopper" reckon it needed some "bushing up"? So he's going back to the first root of the problem, how it was handled, who wrote the spec, were they qualified to write the spec and the crunch was that no matter who the contractor was even if the spec suggested malpractice they should have waved the red flag and discussed it. But the fact is they bid on the job so had the chance prior to the hacking. I drew a parallel to an unqualified guy drawing a building plan that wasn't to regulation and then a builder building a condemned dangerous illegal structure. Was that builder competent and should that builder have been aware of what the regs are and refused to build the structure? "Of course", he replied. So, we will get to the bottom of this. __________________ TAS Training & Assessment Services\| Arb and Hort Training available here Free Online Tree Value Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online TPZ and SRZ AS4970-2009 Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online Tree Surface Area and Tree Volume Calculator by TreeWorld Free Tree and Green Industry Deep Link Directory ... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist, Tree and Arborist Reports \| Project Arborist

27th May 2007, 07:45 PM	#25
JohN Dee Moderator - Sponsor Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 929	Yooper, the first one is a Fig of some sort, the second is a Euc I believe. __________________ The bigger the dreams, the smaller the competition Red : Green : Blue

30th May 2007, 08:40 PM	#27
TrevMcRev Sponsor Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 1,428	Lopping AND burying the trunks of all those trees with mulch 1-2m deep No Bloody Idea! __________________ Total Tree Care - Melbourne Arborist Reports & Consulting,Tree Pruning & Removal \| Elm Leaf Beetle Treatment Melbourne www.treegear.com.au - Australia's Best Value Arborist Supplies

30th May 2007, 08:47 PM	#28
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort & Seldom Wrong Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 9,764	Trev, it's not mulch, it's soil, scraped up from around the trees on the other side, little bit of mulch on top in some places. __________________ TAS Training & Assessment Services\| Arb and Hort Training available here Free Online Tree Value Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online TPZ and SRZ AS4970-2009 Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online Tree Surface Area and Tree Volume Calculator by TreeWorld Free Tree and Green Industry Deep Link Directory ... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist, Tree and Arborist Reports \| Project Arborist

30th May 2007, 09:50 PM	#29
a_lopa Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,300	They should practise what they preach,hows this from there site.Unbeleivable... Brisbane Tree Services is dedicated to providing superior customer service and top quality tree care. We believe in the value of trees and that you value your trees. We make our evaluations and do our work according to industry standards that promote the health, safety and vigour of your trees. __________________ Drouin Tree Services and Excavator Hire \| Excavator Hire - Drouin and SE Gippsland

30th May 2007, 09:56 PM	#30
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 2,155	Ok Ekka I'll grant you that is pretty darn bad, do you think they are undertaking some weird experiment that will form the basis of a journal article? No?.. me neither! What a shower Brisbane Tree Services are , you could just about write a book based on the bad and harmful practices exhibited in those pics alone. What a joke tree services disservices more like It is disappointing mate but to be honest not surprising, up here they would have dozed the trees to make more room to dump. The key problem in all this as I see it is that QBuild have failed to meet their own standards of quality control. This is a very large and productive organisation that is envolved in building construction and maintenance throughout Queensland, in many different state government run and funded organisations, schools hospitals etc.. Unfortunately they have as an organisation not yet realised that there is a profession called Arboriculture and that Arborists can assist them in saving time and money in the management of all their tree related issues. They still have to overcome the anacronism of labelling all they tree works lopping, we as a profession need to be more active in raising awareness of correct work practices, basic (very basic) levels of service with minimum standards and measurable performance indicators. The idea or attitude that simply lopping back problem trees is an acceptable practice is well and truely outdated, no successful high profile business would engage in the waste management practices of 50yrs ago, nor the work methods from that era, and there is no discussion or debate, everyone agrees that works even dirty and menial works have to be undertaken in accordance with the state and federal minimum standards yet this is still not the case when it comes to trees. Why does an organisation with the profile of QBuild allow such substandard work to be undertaken by their subcontractor, simply because the information required for better decision making is not getting through to the appropriate decision makers. How many of you have to explain in great detail what you mean by Arborist when asked what you do? Most of you I would quess, it is no different at higher levels of management in organisations like QBuild, sure some of the upper managers would have heard of Arborists, and tree surgeons.....but they are only needed for very expensive big projects with very valuable trees.....this day to day work has always been done by company X, and we're very happy with them, why rock the boat? It doesn't take much to explain how the recurrent damaging work undertaken by loppers is fiscal madness for any buisness...let alone one as large as QBuild I can't even begin to imagine how many millions of $$'s are wasted each and every day across this state on unnecessary, inappropriate, damaging tree work for an organisation that big. QBuild does understand risk management, and does take it very seriously not long back a child was injured swinging on a basketball hoop,as a result QBuild completed an audit of every single basketball structure in every state school in Queensland, literally thousands and thousands of static drop tests, each failure was removed and a fully engineered hoop structure put in place cost well make a quess and triple it! Within every large corporation, business, organisation there is a level of management that fully understand what best management practice means and why it has to be the minimum standard, they understand risk management and prioritisation of works, these are the people that we need to communicate with, these are the people who want and need our expertise with trees. Unfortunately there will always be others who do not understand or do not want to understand how to properly manage their trees, for them OH&S is not taken seriously, getting it done quick and cheap is the prime motivation, these people occupy positions in every business, and when they obstruct improvements and advances even very basic ones like stopping pointless wastefull damaging lopping it literally can drive you nuts Slowly as more managers/decision makers are exposed to how Arboriculture can benefit them their business and the environment around them we will make progress...somedays its seems slower than others __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran http://wanderingarborist.blogspot.com/ http://veterantreegroup.blogspot.com/ http://www.youtube.com/user/VeteranTreeGroup

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