Arborists, what's wrong with this picture?

Ekka · 29th May 2007, 10:45 PM

Right oh guys, lets get back on track here.

Today I spoke with Glen from Q-Build. He feels they have done nothing wrong and all their role was ... was to get the quotes and issue the job. They didn't write the job spec etc. They were simply relaying Queensland Health's request.

Now, who is suitably knowledgeable or qualified to set the spec and determine the pruning works at Queensland Health? Well, the office supervisor for the place of course. So premise supervisor tells Q-Build that they want the trees pruned off the roof and made shorter (at least 2m shorter) to make them safer.

So we follow the string of errors to the quote stage and it is here that no-one tells anyone what's going on is wrong either. In fact Glen from Q-Build told me the Brisbane Tree Services did the job, and their Level 3 arborist ought to know and the arborist re-inspected the job and is happy with what he did.

So, Q-Build pass the buck fully onto the tree company and wipe their hands of it. Glen got quite erky, reckons I should mind my own business and keep my nose out of theirs. LOL

That's OK, this is going to the local councillor for the area as typical buck passing govt BS and ArborAge and any other place I can get it published as a display of ignorance to tree care.

So, I rang Brisbane Tree Services. The owner doesn't have a copy of AS4373 and the Level 3 arborist is from Toowoomba ex council and has done a bit of this lopping work. The picture below is the tree services own yard and it's the current arborist who pruned their trees!

What started as bit of a hostile phone call with Yvonne ended up OK in the end with her being aware that their arborist is not working to AS4373 but she does the quotes.

So nowhere along this line of events is their a diligent person saying, "hey, this isn't right and here's what you need to do."

What have you got the whole length of this?

Well you tell me, I already know. All I hear is excuses and BS buck passing. And when you ask questions about things around here the govt is quick to label you some nosey trouble maker.

So, there it is in a nut shell. Where's responsibility? Where's accountability? Where's ya stinking BS standards?

The pictures below are taking from the road of Brisbane Tree Services premises.

For my own reference here's the link to ward councillor
http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/BCC:S...40903:pc=PC_36

TrevMcRev · 30th May 2007, 01:40 AM

Lopping AND burying the trunks of all those trees with mulch 1-2m deep

No Bloody Idea!

Ekka · 30th May 2007, 01:47 AM

Trev, it's not mulch, it's soil, scraped up from around the trees on the other side, little bit of mulch on top in some places.

a_lopa · 30th May 2007, 02:50 AM

They should practise what they preach,hows this from there site.Unbeleivable...

Brisbane Tree Services is dedicated to providing superior customer service and top quality tree care. We believe in the value of trees and that you value your trees. We make our evaluations and do our work according to industry standards that promote the health, safety and vigour of your trees.

Sean Freeman · 30th May 2007, 02:56 AM

Ok Ekka I'll grant you that is pretty darn bad, do you think they are undertaking some weird experiment that will form the basis of a journal article? No?.. me neither! What a shower Brisbane Tree Services are

, you could just about write a book based on the bad and harmful practices exhibited in those pics alone. What a joke tree services disservices more like

It is disappointing mate but to be honest not surprising, up here they would have dozed the trees to make more room to dump.

The key problem in all this as I see it is that QBuild have failed to meet their own standards of quality control. This is a very large and productive organisation that is envolved in building construction and maintenance throughout Queensland, in many different state government run and funded organisations, schools hospitals etc..

Unfortunately they have as an organisation not yet realised that there is a profession called Arboriculture and that Arborists can assist them in saving time and money in the management of all their tree related issues. They still have to overcome the anacronism of labelling all they tree works lopping, we as a profession need to be more active in raising awareness of correct work practices, basic (very basic) levels of service with minimum standards and measurable performance indicators.

The idea or attitude that simply lopping back problem trees is an acceptable practice is well and truely outdated, no successful high profile business would engage in the waste management practices of 50yrs ago, nor the work methods from that era, and there is no discussion or debate, everyone agrees that works even dirty and menial works have to be undertaken in accordance with the state and federal minimum standards yet this is still not the case when it comes to trees.

Why does an organisation with the profile of QBuild allow such substandard work to be undertaken by their subcontractor, simply because the information required for better decision making is not getting through to the appropriate decision makers.

How many of you have to explain in great detail what you mean by Arborist when asked what you do? Most of you I would quess, it is no different at higher levels of management in organisations like QBuild, sure some of the upper managers would have heard of Arborists, and tree surgeons.....but they are only needed for very expensive big projects with very valuable trees.....this day to day work has always been done by company X, and we're very happy with them, why rock the boat?

It doesn't take much to explain how the recurrent damaging work undertaken by loppers is fiscal madness for any buisness...let alone one as large as QBuild I can't even begin to imagine how many millions of $$'s are wasted each and every day across this state on unnecessary, inappropriate, damaging tree work for an organisation that big.

QBuild does understand risk management, and does take it very seriously not long back a child was injured swinging on a basketball hoop,as a result QBuild completed an audit of every single basketball structure in every state school in Queensland, literally thousands and thousands of static drop tests, each failure was removed and a fully engineered hoop structure put in place cost well make a quess and triple it!

Within every large corporation, business, organisation there is a level of management that fully understand what best management practice means and why it has to be the minimum standard, they understand risk management and prioritisation of works, these are the people that we need to communicate with, these are the people who want and need our expertise with trees.

Unfortunately there will always be others who do not understand or do not want to understand how to properly manage their trees, for them OH&S is not taken seriously, getting it done quick and cheap is the prime motivation, these people occupy positions in every business, and when they obstruct improvements and advances even very basic ones like stopping pointless wastefull damaging lopping it literally can drive you nuts

Slowly as more managers/decision makers are exposed to how Arboriculture can benefit them their business and the environment around them we will make progress...somedays its seems slower than others

JohN Dee · 30th May 2007, 06:44 AM

Ekka that is a bloody outrage! Mate call me nuts but it's starting to look like the best thing you can do is run to become the local MP of your area and try and stress these ongoing issues amongst the politicians to make a change.

Although if something that sinister was to happen down here they would be prosecuted under the TPO Legislation - a group needs to be formed with both political and financial backing power to be the authority body on the tree industry to place TPO's throughout Australia and to prevent these hacks (WITH QUALIFICATIONS!) from working in our industry and completing jobs like these.

Today I was getting rid of cocos palm logs at the tip and blimey I must of seen at least 4 different businesses that were a bunch of hacks! These hacks are spreading like a the plague. The even worse bit is that these hacks are starting to get their papers (Qualifications) and still have a blatent disrespect to the tree industry and its standards.

A very long, but brilliant post Sean, two thumbs up. It's like my teacher always says about Architects, Engineers and Landscapers. You've gotta catch em' young to get the ball rolling.

Ekka · 30th May 2007, 01:17 PM

When I was talking with Glen from Q-Build I spoke of a situation where the building was subsiding and cracking.

Would the supervisor just call Q-Build and request underpinning or would Q-Build send a building engineer out to write specifications for remedial works?

Then if the qualified builder ignored engineering standards and build the wrong thing would Q-Build take further action and demand repair/reinstatement if not prosecution? Of course they would.

But this is just a tree and every ones an expert on them, part of the criteria for the pruning ... from the ignorant in charge was so it would bush up nicely. I knew that had to be in there.

I also assimilated the qualified arborist doing malpractice to a builder doing the same. They may be qualified but it doesn't mean they are working to regs/standards.

This is another extremely typical display, in a very very busy place. This is govt ignoring their own rules and responsibilities. This is Brisbane, where the boat rockers are the trouble makers and the hacks are best mates. Read the front page of that tree services website. How many references is there to quality, integrity, govt quality assured bla bla bla ... to me that is fraud and lies. Then you see the picture of their own yard, the tree they pruned in high visual display.

And you know what, theoretically they haven't broken a law. A standard perhaps but that's open to opinion as you can clearly see and even endorsed by govt as acceptable as in this case. When the govt themselves buries their heads in the sand you surely have little chance of improvement.

BCC has the keys to the city on TPO's, State govt on licencing etc ... so I'll take the fight to them, but don't hold your breath .... we're just disgruntled tree loppers to them.

a_lopa · 30th May 2007, 10:05 PM

Q-build are as much at fault as "brisbane tree services",must be no quality work checks or no care im betting the later.More lazy "managers"like Glenn sitting around passing the buck.No doubt theyl all try and band together and weather the storm even thou there completly wrong!"brisbane tree services" trying to keep there contract and "glenn"keeping his slate clean for his money for jam job.

I challenge you Glenn to tell me how hard your job is!

Ekka · 3rd June 2007, 09:12 PM

Malcolm the regional manager I think is looking into it now, just rang, that's good, getting some movement here and he's seen this thread.

a_lopa · 3rd June 2007, 09:54 PM

We will see if they have the balls to act against things like this,really it would take very little to change the scene.A few fines handed out would take the wind out of ALOT of the hacks.

That standard of work is just plain rediculous.

newguy18 · 14th July 2007, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Have a look and let me know, I was thinking of advertising this method and cleaning up in this town ... people are "Q'ing" up for this, they love it.

Many times they say it had to be done, coz the tree was dangerous.

Dunno. I have been driving past these trees for 15 years and never seen anything dangerous but then again, I didn't pull over to inspect and analyse like a paid consultant should.

Anyway, let me know, do you think I could use them as a huge billboard like they are now, tens of thousands of people go past this busy place a day, right opposite a shop entrance and on a bad set of lights that most people catch red.

Looks like they walked out on a removal.

JayD · 14th July 2007, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohN Dee

Ekka that is a bloody outrage! Mate call me nuts but it's starting to look like the best thing you can do is run to become the local MP of your area and try and stress these ongoing issues amongst the politicians to make a change.

Hi Folks,
I just re read this post and Ekka, I think John has a good idea you should run for office, You definately have your platform forming as we speak.sometimes to get the job done you have to get amongst it many differant ways me for one would vote for you if I lived in your electorate. But seriously I think you would have a good chance of making it,Then you would have the clout you need to rectify the wrongs going on up there.
Please dont reject this idea Ekka, Think of the number of happy folks you have looked after over the years during the course of your business, sureley from there a voteing base would start,The environment is very important these days..and think of the good you do for Arboriculture in general...All laughs aside I think you would do well.Just a suggestion mate.

Ekka,MP (Arboriculture)

Ekka · 14th July 2007, 06:29 PM

Gawd

Thanks for the kind words but politics certainly isn't my cuppa.

John Stewart · 28th July 2007, 03:40 PM

Damn Dudes!
Been away for awhile but what the hell is that
I don't care where in the world you are they need to give their head a shake
By the way what kind of trees were they and I do mean were?
Nice to be back online!

30th May 2007, 01:40 AM	#27 (permalink)
TrevMcRev Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 727	Lopping AND burying the trunks of all those trees with mulch 1-2m deep No Bloody Idea! __________________ Melbourne Arborist, Total Tree Care, Pruning, Tree and Stump Removal

30th May 2007, 01:47 AM	#28 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,846	Trev, it's not mulch, it's soil, scraped up from around the trees on the other side, little bit of mulch on top in some places. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

30th May 2007, 02:50 AM	#29 (permalink)
a_lopa Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Drouin Posts: 866	They should practise what they preach,hows this from there site.Unbeleivable... Brisbane Tree Services is dedicated to providing superior customer service and top quality tree care. We believe in the value of trees and that you value your trees. We make our evaluations and do our work according to industry standards that promote the health, safety and vigour of your trees. __________________ Free Tree Industry Link Directory Drouin tree lopping, land clearing and stump removals

30th May 2007, 02:56 AM	#30 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,643	Ok Ekka I'll grant you that is pretty darn bad, do you think they are undertaking some weird experiment that will form the basis of a journal article? No?.. me neither! What a shower Brisbane Tree Services are , you could just about write a book based on the bad and harmful practices exhibited in those pics alone. What a joke tree services disservices more like It is disappointing mate but to be honest not surprising, up here they would have dozed the trees to make more room to dump. The key problem in all this as I see it is that QBuild have failed to meet their own standards of quality control. This is a very large and productive organisation that is envolved in building construction and maintenance throughout Queensland, in many different state government run and funded organisations, schools hospitals etc.. Unfortunately they have as an organisation not yet realised that there is a profession called Arboriculture and that Arborists can assist them in saving time and money in the management of all their tree related issues. They still have to overcome the anacronism of labelling all they tree works lopping, we as a profession need to be more active in raising awareness of correct work practices, basic (very basic) levels of service with minimum standards and measurable performance indicators. The idea or attitude that simply lopping back problem trees is an acceptable practice is well and truely outdated, no successful high profile business would engage in the waste management practices of 50yrs ago, nor the work methods from that era, and there is no discussion or debate, everyone agrees that works even dirty and menial works have to be undertaken in accordance with the state and federal minimum standards yet this is still not the case when it comes to trees. Why does an organisation with the profile of QBuild allow such substandard work to be undertaken by their subcontractor, simply because the information required for better decision making is not getting through to the appropriate decision makers. How many of you have to explain in great detail what you mean by Arborist when asked what you do? Most of you I would quess, it is no different at higher levels of management in organisations like QBuild, sure some of the upper managers would have heard of Arborists, and tree surgeons.....but they are only needed for very expensive big projects with very valuable trees.....this day to day work has always been done by company X, and we're very happy with them, why rock the boat? It doesn't take much to explain how the recurrent damaging work undertaken by loppers is fiscal madness for any buisness...let alone one as large as QBuild I can't even begin to imagine how many millions of $$'s are wasted each and every day across this state on unnecessary, inappropriate, damaging tree work for an organisation that big. QBuild does understand risk management, and does take it very seriously not long back a child was injured swinging on a basketball hoop,as a result QBuild completed an audit of every single basketball structure in every state school in Queensland, literally thousands and thousands of static drop tests, each failure was removed and a fully engineered hoop structure put in place cost well make a quess and triple it! Within every large corporation, business, organisation there is a level of management that fully understand what best management practice means and why it has to be the minimum standard, they understand risk management and prioritisation of works, these are the people that we need to communicate with, these are the people who want and need our expertise with trees. Unfortunately there will always be others who do not understand or do not want to understand how to properly manage their trees, for them OH&S is not taken seriously, getting it done quick and cheap is the prime motivation, these people occupy positions in every business, and when they obstruct improvements and advances even very basic ones like stopping pointless wastefull damaging lopping it literally can drive you nuts Slowly as more managers/decision makers are exposed to how Arboriculture can benefit them their business and the environment around them we will make progress...somedays its seems slower than others __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

30th May 2007, 06:44 AM	#31 (permalink)
JohN Dee Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 728	Ekka that is a bloody outrage! Mate call me nuts but it's starting to look like the best thing you can do is run to become the local MP of your area and try and stress these ongoing issues amongst the politicians to make a change. Although if something that sinister was to happen down here they would be prosecuted under the TPO Legislation - a group needs to be formed with both political and financial backing power to be the authority body on the tree industry to place TPO's throughout Australia and to prevent these hacks (WITH QUALIFICATIONS!) from working in our industry and completing jobs like these. Today I was getting rid of cocos palm logs at the tip and blimey I must of seen at least 4 different businesses that were a bunch of hacks! These hacks are spreading like a the plague. The even worse bit is that these hacks are starting to get their papers (Qualifications) and still have a blatent disrespect to the tree industry and its standards. A very long, but brilliant post Sean, two thumbs up. It's like my teacher always says about Architects, Engineers and Landscapers. You've gotta catch em' young to get the ball rolling. __________________ Climber with slow climbing speed, must make up with mighty chainsaw roar. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Red : Green : Blue

30th May 2007, 01:17 PM	#32 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,846	When I was talking with Glen from Q-Build I spoke of a situation where the building was subsiding and cracking. Would the supervisor just call Q-Build and request underpinning or would Q-Build send a building engineer out to write specifications for remedial works? Then if the qualified builder ignored engineering standards and build the wrong thing would Q-Build take further action and demand repair/reinstatement if not prosecution? Of course they would. But this is just a tree and every ones an expert on them, part of the criteria for the pruning ... from the ignorant in charge was so it would bush up nicely. I knew that had to be in there. I also assimilated the qualified arborist doing malpractice to a builder doing the same. They may be qualified but it doesn't mean they are working to regs/standards. This is another extremely typical display, in a very very busy place. This is govt ignoring their own rules and responsibilities. This is Brisbane, where the boat rockers are the trouble makers and the hacks are best mates. Read the front page of that tree services website. How many references is there to quality, integrity, govt quality assured bla bla bla ... to me that is fraud and lies. Then you see the picture of their own yard, the tree they pruned in high visual display. And you know what, theoretically they haven't broken a law. A standard perhaps but that's open to opinion as you can clearly see and even endorsed by govt as acceptable as in this case. When the govt themselves buries their heads in the sand you surely have little chance of improvement. BCC has the keys to the city on TPO's, State govt on licencing etc ... so I'll take the fight to them, but don't hold your breath .... we're just disgruntled tree loppers to them. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

30th May 2007, 10:05 PM	#33 (permalink)
a_lopa Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Drouin Posts: 866	Q-build are as much at fault as "brisbane tree services",must be no quality work checks or no care im betting the later.More lazy "managers"like Glenn sitting around passing the buck.No doubt theyl all try and band together and weather the storm even thou there completly wrong!"brisbane tree services" trying to keep there contract and "glenn"keeping his slate clean for his money for jam job. I challenge you Glenn to tell me how hard your job is! __________________ Free Tree Industry Link Directory Drouin tree lopping, land clearing and stump removals

3rd June 2007, 09:12 PM	#34 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,846	Malcolm the regional manager I think is looking into it now, just rang, that's good, getting some movement here and he's seen this thread. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

3rd June 2007, 09:54 PM	#35 (permalink)
a_lopa Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Drouin Posts: 866	We will see if they have the balls to act against things like this,really it would take very little to change the scene.A few fines handed out would take the wind out of ALOT of the hacks. That standard of work is just plain rediculous. __________________ Free Tree Industry Link Directory Drouin tree lopping, land clearing and stump removals

14th July 2007, 06:29 PM	#38 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,846	Gawd Thanks for the kind words but politics certainly isn't my cuppa. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

28th July 2007, 03:40 PM	#39 (permalink)
John Stewart Sappling Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Brampton, Ontario Canada Posts: 7	Damn Dudes! Been away for awhile but what the hell is that I don't care where in the world you are they need to give their head a shake By the way what kind of trees were they and I do mean were? Nice to be back online! __________________ Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn. C. S. Lewis