Arborist title| when can you use it

Eric Frei

Did you know just recently elsewhere a Jims Trees franchise bloke was calling himself an "urban arborist". When called out and asked to post his qualifications he provided a link to Wikipedia description of an arborists job and claimed that according to that he had the right to call himself an arborist.

Herein Australia it's appropriate to call yourself an arborist if you have a level 3 cert .... other than that you're pretty much a tree lopper, gardener, tree bloke etc.

If on the weekends you knock out a few cabinets from wood does that make you a cabinet maker? If you wired up the spotties on your ute does that make you an auto electrician? Whilst encyclopedias and dictionary's may describe jobs it's not the basis of certification or qualification. If you have been doing the job for a number of years and are proficient and decide to call yourself an arborist do you think that's OK without getting the paperwork for it?

So I'm running a poll, lets see what people think, and of course there will be strong bias in the voting as one would expect all the non qualified to say "yes it's OK" whilst all the qualified will be saying "get the cert or qualification".

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Drouin Tree Service

Tree Doc here!

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newguy18

I call myself a climber,my boss tends to call me a tree surgeon,i hate when he does.

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old schooler

Gunslinger

Unless the definition is defined by law, such as a Physician, Professional Engineer etc, it's pretty much just semantics. So by some definition bloke Jim is an Arborist. He's might not be a certified Arborist nor a licensed Arborist but he's still is an Arborist. If the law said that only people who have a certain level of certification can use the word "Arborist" and he doesn't have it, then I agree that he isn't one.

Jeff Darby

I think when you are doing your own tree work in your own backyard it does not matter if you are qualified to AQF level 3, but thats where it stops!

When some body goes out and places an add for profit and gain and presents themselves as an Arborist with out any formal training at all its fraudulent, you are stating that you are some thing you are not!

If this was a backyard Doctor,plumber,electrician advertising he's a professional when he's not they would jump out of helicopters to put him out of business.

In my opinion you need to have Cert 3 to have the title of
Arborist.

It is easy to fix if you haven't got cert 3, go to Tafe for two years,study hard and pass your tests and bingo you can call yourself an Arborist any where.

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newguy18

Jay,some places don't have tafe or cert 3,should we just settle for the isa?

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old schooler

Jeff Darby

ISA certified Arborist appears to be all that is available in America. It would be a starting point,Pursue your professionalism with a vengence read everything you can about arboriculture.

I'm Qualified and I'm still studying, reading, learning every day.

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newguy18

I read when i can,i'm usually real busy.

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old schooler

Gunslinger

What does the law in Australia say? Can someone be considered an Arborist without certification? IMO unless it's defined by law the term becomes ambiguous.

Here I can own some tools and go to work every day and be an electrician without even finishing high school. I'm still an electrician. I'm not a journeyman electrician or an apprentice electrician or a licensed electrician or a master electrician or an electrical contractor but I'm still an electrician.

Jeff Darby

lol, here you would be in gaol

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Gunslinger

Hmmm since I'm in jail would there be any Arborists with me who said they were Arborists but they really weren't because didn't really have a certificate? Is saying that you're an Arborist a crime down under?

I gather that is the reason for this pole in the first place.

Eric Frei

The law would be local by state.

Here in Queensland it would be covered by the Dept of Fair Trading and likely challenged as misrepresentation as a "reasonable person" would expect some-one proclaiming to be an arborist would be suitably experienced and qualified.

For say electricians etc you must have a licence, advertise the number etc ... here you would be prosecuted for what you have proposed.

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Eric Frei

Oh, and for the record the latest with the door knocking Islanders is .... they're telling everyone now that they're arborists.

So the issue is red hot, and without the paperwork your just another "saw for hire".

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Therrin

I think you should be able to use the title as long as you're open and honest about the extent of what it means, when asked.

People ask me what I do, I often say I'm an arborist. I much prefer it to things like "tree lopper" or "landscaper" or "gardener". Because I don't landscape, and I don't do gardening. I'm not those things, I work specifically on trees, and not hacking them or lopping them to pieces.

I dont claim to be certified, and actually I dont advertise as an "Arborist". But when people ask me if I'm certified I respond that while certifications do exist, I am NOT certified, nor have I ever claimed to be.

Doing something a few times and claiming the title is wrong, yeah... but for something you do all the time, for years, as your main line of work or income... I dont think that's out of place.

I've also said I'm a handyman. No cert there. Or a ranch hand, again, no cert. I find the term "arborist" more along the lines of a tree worker, and "certified Arborist" as someone who IS certified.

Websters says:
Main Entry:ar·bor·ist
Pronunciation:\ˈär-bə-rist\
Function:noun
Date:1578
: a specialist in the care and maintenance of trees.

And doesnt say anything about certification. You can specialize in something without being certified. There are many tree workers far more skilled than I, who are also more skilled than many "certified" arborists, who have been doing the job for 20 years... no reason they cant call themselves what they are.

Certification is a piece of paper. And...granted, it has a good place.

My opinions are for my area only, if where you live the laws say otherwise, follow that.

Eric Frei

That info came from this link.

arborist - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Also from the same source here's a few other examples.

electrician - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

And another, mind you #1 & 3 is interesting.

plumber - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
Are you starting to see a pattern here? These are descriptions not qualifications. Not many resources like that will go into the details of how to become one and called one ... also just like the "arborist" thing over at Wiki it gets changed all the time, what I did almost a year ago is for most parts gone, especially the detailed information about qualifcations. Why does this happen? Because in my opinion there's far more working in the industry unqualified than qualified.

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Therrin

I dont think "qualified" and "certified" are synonomous terms. I think you can be one without being the other.

I was only referring to webster because earlier wiki was quoted, and I find wiki to be a contemptible source of info, at best. Webster slightly better, but still it's a starting point of sorts.

It is not illegal here to call oneself an arborist without certification, nor is certification required to do the work (whether we at TW think it should be or not).
So in THIS area... there's no problem with it. As long as you arent claiming to be something you arent (such as certified), the term "arborist" has a much more positive meaning (to me) than "lopper".

Also, surgeons don't typically kill people and dispose of their bodies purposely....(despite what television may tell us ala niptuck), so if we were being really picky, tree surgeons wouldnt perform TD's. And Tree Docs wouldnt plant trees or remove trees.

Arborist is an all-inclusive term for someone who may or may not be certified, but is qualified nonetheless.

Jeff Darby

Not here in Australia, AQF level 3 to be called an Arborist here, If your working on trees with out this qualification your a treelopper if you maintian high standards, if you dont well, your a hack!

I'm proud to be an Arborist, I studied hard sacraficed my time in the evenings to be able call myself an Arborist and Only Qualified or certified should have this title.

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Join the Australian Tree Association...Have your voice heard !

Arboriculture, A life long study for some, a passing phase for others

© Jeffrey J Darby 2011

Bermy

I voted No...
Over here on the flyspeck in the Atlantic you don't need any qualifications to call yourself anything in the entire Horticultural Industry...except Landscape Architect.

I have marked all the ads in the Yellow Pages where some landscaping companies advertise, tree surgery, tree pruning or tree cutting/felling. there are about 12-15...THREE of us have qualifications from the UK, the rest nada.
Of the remaining 50 odd landscaping companies at least half will gladly slap a ladder up a tree, hand on with one hand and cut your trees!

IF the person or company that was claiming to be an arborist or tree surgeon or tree pruner ACTUALLY did the work to standard...I'd have no problem, but here that is just NOT the case...chop 'em and drop 'em rules.
It does seem to happen more in the US, guys have taken the time to educate themselves, or work with people who are knowledgable and/or qualified...your work speaks for itself!

Our Government is now requiring all Auto Mechanics, Electricians, Welders and Plumbers to obtain National Certification...about time!
Horticulture is next...everyone is going to have to either show their certificates and have them legitimised, and/or pass a practical assessment of skills to a recognised standard and maybe a written exam as well...

'Bout bleddy time!!

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Eric Frei

That's great, when that happens to the hort industry hopefully it includes arbs ... keep us posted like to see how it works.

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Graeme

Just found this http://www.hastings.nsw.gov.au/resou...ist_Report.pdf

2. DEFINITION OF ARBORIST
a. A person who holds the Australian Qualifications Framework Diploma in
Horticulture (Arboriculture) or other qualification to the satisfaction of Council, and
b. who has been registered with the Council as a qualified person for the purposes of the preparation of an arborist report, or
c. the Council.
3. DEFINITION OF TREE WORKER
A tradesperson who holds the Australian Qualifications Framework Certificate III Horticulture (Arboriculture) or acceptable international equivalent.
Note: The term tree surgeon is not formally recognized; the correct title is tree worker.

So in Port Macquarie even at Level III you are still a tree worker.

Drouin Tree Service

Im a tree doctor no matter what anyone says LOL!!!

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Apocalypsse

According to NMIT in Victoria it goes like:

Cert 2 - Arborist's Assistant
Cert 3 - Arborist
Cert 5/Diploma - Consultant

Eric Frei

This other site I refer too has banned me over the last few months some 5 times, on petty little incidentals that they comb the forum for because I don't think they like some of their posters getting caught out .... you can see for yourself, do note the snide approach by the moderator.

I managed to acquire proof of not only the alleged qualification by this guy but also his incorrect and antagonistic statements regarding me, which clearly that site doesn't mind as this guy continues to spread his rhetoric there although the post was pulled, I wonder if Jims Trees Franchises approves of this type of behaviour? ... I'll email them to this thread and check. Do remember that this poster is banned here at treeworld but went to the USA site where he continues unchecked.

For the record this is the thread that lead to Outofmytrees banning here.
Mechanical Advantage Pulley Quiz





And here you can see he is still pushing the empty barrow.



So who is Outofmytree?

Well, I found a link to his business.
Jim's Trees Dianella, John Holliday - cat in a tree rescue

And just in case that link gets pulled

Attached Thumbnails

     

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TreeCo

That cat does seem a bit strange but considering where he's from.....it seems the norm!

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Bruce Hopf

Up here in Ontario Canada, I do not have to have a Certificate to operate a Chain Saw to cut Fire Wood, as long as I'm on my own Farm. If I go across the Road, and help out my Neighbour on his Farm, even though I'm not getting Paid to help cut Fire Wood, Then I have to have a Certificate, to cut Fire Wood with a Chain Saw.
I have to agree, that one has to be Certified, to do any type of work, if he is making a Living at the Job. Bruce.

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stargazer

Certification/government control is a two edged sword. Those who are certified are rightfully proud of their accomplishment and hard work. But too much regulation is not always a good thing. I don't think stopping a neighbor from helping the little old lady across the street is a good thing, I think it is morally reprehensible.

A college degree is a form of certification. Believe me when I say that not all with degrees are necessarily smart or even educated. And not all without degrees are ignoramuses. Extremely intelligent people may not have had the opportunity/money to attend college, but they learn on their own by experience and reading etc.

I went to college, and worked to pay for it. I noticed that many were there as a vacation, with parents paying the entire amount. I realized that in a sense you were buying a degree on installment plan, like a car. You could attend the same classes, be at the top of your class, and not get a degree, only knowledge, if you were only interested in learning, but not paying.

Sour grapes?????????????????????

No, I have a degree with honors. But I did not even go to my graduation or care about the degree. Much later I got something in the mail..........."What is this?" It was my degree, which I had forgotten about. And which I've never used for anything, or really even looked at except by accident twice. Still in the original envelope.

I also went to technical college and studied building trades and architectural design and drafting and rendering. I completed my courses but did not go to graduation, and they did not mail me anything. I did not care. I was at the top of many of my classes. I invented a better way to do perspective drawings from plans, my teacher wanted me to go to Boston and give a talk at some meeting of people into perspective drawing. I didn't care to.

Now, I've studied building technology, strength of materials, rafter and stair framing, concrete, plumbing, etc. I did extremely well. I got what I wanted, the knowledge. Yes it was hard work to run a business days, bid on jobs and go to school nights. Sure I'm proud of it, if I stop and think about it (which I don't). Does that make me superior to someone else who worked under experts and grew in knowledge on the job?

No, it does not. Did having a building technology certificate prove that the bearers were all brilliant and supremely qualified? Sorry, but no. In fact, I learned why so many blueprints had stupid errors. Artistic types who could draw beautifully did well in Drafting. Have you ever seen the stairs drawn by E.M. Escher? They go only down, or only up. Just because it can be drawn does not mean it is possible to build it. In fact, the $200 book "Architectural Standards" has drawings that are not build-able, and that explains why so many textbooks and prints have the identical problems.

Another factor is that some people are good at one thing, some at another. One may be good at regurgitating the vocabulary and taking tests, but sucks at working in the field. Another may be an experienced and insightful worker in the field, but terrible at tests and pleasing the system. I'd rather have the hands on expert do work for me than the bearer of paper.

Ekka, I came to this site as a guest at first and was taken with your knowledge and helpfulness, without knowing it was your site. I'm sure you have forgotten more than I'll ever know about trees. I suspect you are the driven artist type, and can't stand to see butchers screwing up.

But there will always be high and low quality customers. Including those that would rather pay too much to a butcher and feel they "got away" with something. I think there is enough work to go around. If you are good, as most on this site seem to be, then good people will become aware that you do good work. You will be happiest servicing those customers. Other workers may be less artistic and caring but are perhaps good businessmen. (I wish I was a better businessman, I'm the artist type myself.) The incompetent need to make a living too, and there will always be incompetent customers and a demand for incompetent work.

I had only one opportunity to take a class in "tree surgery" as it was called. I've always regretted not taking it. I'd love to take a course in climbing.

But I do not want the government telling me what I can or can't do. If my neighbor needs help and I'm inclined to help, I don't want the law saying "No!".

Eric Frei

LOL,

I worked in a machine shop once ...... there were plenty of drawings of things that could not be machined as the people who drew them never made them, hence why so many things come as parts, bolt together etc.

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Rob Murf

I got a cert of hort 20 years ago(nsw tafe 08123) plus did a tree did a"tree surgery course" (no 1522) at the same time and been working in trees since then and so i call myself an arborist but i respect the right for others to call themselves any thing they want!!!
Some times words have different meanings..and meanings change over time but i like the original meaning as posted.
It was interesting to see how old a word it is ...some how i thought it would be more recent.

Apocalypsse

Half the time when you say 'arborist' tho people have nfi what you are on about, they respond well to tree lopper...

TrevMcRev

Funny though when you get people who have been told to get an Arborist...

"are you a arbatrist"
"are you a aborrealist"
"are you an ar..arb..arba...abor..abb..."

I'm still waiting to be asked if i'm an abortionist one day