Any legal eagles about - Telstra line cut !

bill24

Early this year a mates brother rang and wanted me to remove (grind) stumps for him some 80 KM's from my base - four or five around 250mm and one about 600mm - all eucalypts.

I told him it was to far away and to small a job to travel 80km each way and I didn't really think I would do it.

He reiterated that he would like me to do it so I advised him that if I could find another job near his then I would reconsider the options.

I also asked him to get a local stump contractor nearer his place to do it but he still wanted me do it.

I chased up a contractor I get work with and he had a small job ($120) close by which I could do on the same day.

I rang back & quoted $150 to the mates bro. which was pretty much mate rate however I felt an obligation to my mate and wanted to help out.

Got there and looked at the job for him. Could see indentation in lawn and told him I was wary of doing the job as Telstra lines could be cut.

Considerable conversation later he still wants me to do the stumps.

I did the smaller 4 or 5 and started on the last 600mm stump and yep, straight through Telstra line that was about 150mm underground.

It was plain to him and I that I had done the job only because he had asked me to proceed - and that he would have to wear the Telstra repair.

I charged him $50 for what I had completed and felt I had done the right thing by him. The day was a complete loss as far as making a $$ but thats what you get for mate rate jobs I have decided.

Couple months later Telstra sends me the bill - $450. Fair to say I was a bit taken aback........or other words not repeatable here......!!!

Ring mate and he he says Bro. was going to pay the Telstra account and even told me how much it was for.

However when the bro. got it he must have decided it was to much and sent it back to Telstra telling them to send it to me.

I don't feel a moral or legal obligation and told Telstra so.

Thay say I did the damage and I am liable for the full amount of $450.

Will be seeing solicitor soon, but interested in anyone else's experiences.

Question.....Anyone out there think I am liable when acting as the customers servant and acting on his instructions. ??

Ps..Carry $10,000,000 public liability but the excess makes this not worth a claim.

Eric Frei

Yeah, the little favours and jobs that you don't follow the rules or write a quote for.

My quotes all have a clause at the bottom for stump grinding, no liability accepted for damage to underground services, pipes etc. I tell them all, however if you do not ... then to a degree you are liable.

Tough one, let me know what the lawyer says but the rate they charge it's probably cheaper to pay the bill.

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bill24

The small jobs -- very true Ekka.

The customer was very aware of the arrangement but didn't like the amount Telstra charged so took a dive on his responsibility to pay for the damage.

Live and learn !

Drouin Tree Service

I have hit a telstra 2 piece line with a stump grinder and got a invoice for $900 from telstra,Beware that having a disclaimer means nothing to telstra as they "do not enter into third party agreements"So its basically you are being asked by telstra to pay then its up to you to get the money back off the client.

I cannot devulge what went on due to
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Drouin Tree Services | Excavator Hire - Drouin and SE Gippsland | Landclearing Melbourne

bill24

Understand what you are saying Alopa, they have indicated similiar to me.

I need to explore how liable I am at law when acting as the servant of the property owner.

Telstra obviously takes the 'legal stance' that benefits their interests, I am yet to find out how correct or otherwise this stance is.

They put $200 on the job for plant, had a small excavator to dig about six shovel fulls of dirt and here I was charging the customer $150.

We'll see how it pans out.

dov

It always seems to be the small jobs for a mate that end up causing strife. I must admit that I just don't do them anymore after a couple of jobs that ended up costing me more than I made from them.

In short, if it can affect your business (your livelihood,) treat it as business.

bill24

Thanks for imput fellas, will advise how it ends up.

Treemo

Be thankful it wasn't $1200! Oops.

Drouin Tree Service

Telstra may be at part fault due to the line not being deep enough.

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Drouin Tree Services | Excavator Hire - Drouin and SE Gippsland | Landclearing Melbourne

jmcg.insight.gardens

It specifies in the Dial before you Dig service that lines can be under 150mm, so I always check this site before I undertake any work that requires digging, a PITA but saves potentially in the long run as although it's a bit time consuming it's free.

Here's a recent job query as an example, helps to at least know the vicinity of the line to check with potholing.

Cable plan dunvegan street.pdf

Dial before you Dig.pdf

Telstra Duty of Care.pdf

yeah jobs for mates always end up more than you should do, doubt you will get very far with opposing Telstra, read the duty of care. Even when you know where they are you can still dig through the Mother's.

hope this helps

Julie

bill24

Agree, but they seem to take the attitude that depth is irrelevant, the contractor should 'pothole' to track down the line.

(The DBYD plans I get rarely have the route of the line after it enters private property...a lot are a waste of time.)

I have put the depth issue to them but they are not impressed.

bill24

My case, if any, rests on the owner assuming the resposibility once he was made aware of the pitfalls of carrying out the job and then instructing me to proceed.

Thanks Julie and others.

sueann

I don't know about working on trees Bill, but there is a number you can ring to find out where cables are and I have heard you are supposed to ring it before digging away. But whose responsibility it is, owner or contractor, I have no idea.

What a sucky mate though!

http://tiny.cc/fki7v Dial Before You Dig - Cable Plans - Consumer Advice

jmcg.insight.gardens

Bill24,

I'll be interested on how the law works if you are acting as a servant of the owner, one would imagine it will be a grey area.

Yeah DBYD isn't the best help at times, the cables are rarely where they are indicated, in fact that job I posted we hit the cable at 150mm, even though we knew where it was one of the blokes still cut it, just one of those things, lucky he was a sparky by trade as well............. But at least you have still shown that you have followed due course.

Post when you find out how it works, it would be of assistance to us all really, it's one of those things.

sueann

the cables are rarely where they are indicated,

Hi Julie, how handy is that then!! ^

If that's the case then telstra is at fault for not getting in right in the first place!!

jmcg.insight.gardens

Hi Sueann

Tell that to Telstra?..................... as if........ they cover themselves well in the Duty of Care.



Julie

Treemo

Yep, there is a nice disclaimer there to say that the lines may even not be close to where there are located on the DBYD and if you hit them, it's your fault.

I read maybe 5-10 DBYD's a day, and personally I find them frustrating as the road boundaries, like gutters, aren't on the map, only property boundaries. It makes it just that bit harder.

We have also seen curved lines (straight on map) between inspection pits so they are not much help in that regard also.

bill24

This raises the question of how often do we apply for the DBYD info?

I rarely apply but give the locale a very good visual check and discuss it with the property owner.

Even if you have a DBYD plan with you and have consulted it you are not in the clear if you hit a line as Julie & Treemo point out.

I hit on average one/year - getting a bit expensive although the one prev. to this cost me $90.

dov

I contract out all of my stump grinding. My stump grinder deals with all the underground stuff, but generally likes me to do a visual for likely cables/pipes first.

Bloody good stump grinder though - and someone I can trust with all of my customers.

Apocalypsse

I for some reason have fallen in love with stump grinding... As 99% of our stumps are on nature strips theres always risk of hitting all kinds of services including power in the newer estates, if we are suss on it we walk away and get underground plans but in most cases its just fine as we only have to go just under the surface instead of taking out the whole thing.

Basically if you are suss on something then its better off getting plans etc instead of going into the negative for the job, but I heard with Dial Before You Dig you will still be responsible for damage done unless one of their guys is out there watching you.

bill24

Ended up paying Telstra, easier than fighting it in court.

Not the full amount but more than half (by mutual agreement), will attempt to recoup balance out of home owner.

Thanks for posts on the matter, its made me get more DBYD's on jobs recently.

glennak

I hit a telstra line in a raised garden bed along side a drive the line was at least 50mm above the drive level. I knew it was there but thought they would have dug more than 100mm. I payed the b#*#s for reasons as above.
I had a DBYD plan showed water coming from a main in a different street to where it really came from and the phone on one side of the house when you could see it coming up on a diffenent wall.
Dial before you dig is less than useless for working in yards maybe ok for streets. Gas is more of a worry to me if its likely to be close I ask the client to ring the gas company and get them to paint a line over the pipe. I tell them when thet say ring DBYD say no I need to know where the pipe is.

bill24

G'day Glenn,

Gas lines are the biggest worry with a stump grinder I agree, At least they seem to have had the brains to bury them beyond average stump grinding depth.

What p'd me off worst was the owner getting the bill then duckshoving it to me - even after lenghty discussion prior to the job starting.

Live and learn mate.

Hows the s/grind. going in the big smoke, gone super quiet in my eastern area?

Brent Ferris

Here in Ontario, the homeowner calls for locating the utilities, and they come out and mark them - sort of close, and if the stump is within 5 feet of the utility, you are expected to hand dig the stump or be prepared to pay for repairs out of your own pocket (over $100,000 for cutting fibre optics cables). I overprice all such stumps (3 to 5+ x what I charge for stump grinding), and request a 5 foot tall stump be left on the tree stem so that hand digging is a possibility.

I am very leery about grinding stumps in an unknown area, and especially if someone wants only me to do the work. I am not that special. I usually find the local people don't want to do the work for good reason --except I find out the reason too late.

Your decision to just pay the bill was the simplest and easiest, and the best for learning the lesson -- one you won't forget anytime soon.

glennak

I hit a gas pipe in a front yard when the gas meter had been moved to the rear yard. The old pipe had the meter pulled off then capped. The gas and fools paid for that one. Had another in the centre of the front yard I hit the water plumber fixed it and said the gas was right under it. they had crossed the pipes diagonally across the yard.
Have not got a grinder at the moment but have lots of tree work.

bill24

in Canada,

Very true TSN.

Why does the stump need to be 5ft high to dig around it with a shovel ?

See it was 27C there the other day, nice weather for you - its been mid teens here last couple weeks.

Apocalypsse

He means if there are utilities within 5ft of the stump you have to dig up around the stump to make sure there are no pipes running through or near it.

bill24

LOL..........I see a future as a language interpreter in another life for you APOCALYPSSE.........but that ain't what he said.....

Brent Ferris

Apocalypsse
bill24
Well, you're both right.
If utilities are within 5 ft you need to hand dig, and the stump doesn't need to be 5 ft high to dig around it, but I want it that high to help lever it out of the ground. Hand pulling a 1 ft high stump (unless it is really small) is no fun. And if the stump is 12" or more, I prefer 12-16 ft high stump - which usually means I want to be the one taking the tree down.

Temperature wise, mid to high teens is comfortable working weather, high 20's (like today is supposed to be 28 C) when you're not used to it is tough. I know it is winter for you, but summer temperatures reach high 30's? I generally don't work if the temperature reaches 40C and above --- too hot for us, especially with the high humidity.

Apocalypsse

Wait, you have to pull it out by hand as well? Wasn't expecting that. I thought it was just dig down around the stump to make sure there aren't any pipes running through the grinding area, then you are safe to grind it out.