Any legal eagles about - Telstra line cut !

Therrin

Yeah if that was your..what was it, mate's bro? I'd have a serious talk with your mate about what a douchebag his bro is.

Though, I'd actually have a VERY serious "talk" with the landowner too. Like asking him what exactly he meant when he originally said he'd cover the cost for it. I'd take that to small claims court.

bill24

Dig it out by hand ..... shudder shock..............I take my hat off to you.

Any euc. over say 300 or 400 mm could take many hours.....you're bloody keen. Its been that dry here lately that its a major job at times to just get the shovel into the ground !!!

See what you mean by stump height, the higher the attachment point the better, thanks for explaining that.

99% of stumps on nature strips, thats grinder heaven. Last week I travelled 105km to a job, and access was thru' three 36" wide gates and the stumps on raised rock surrounded garden beds with most of them having concrete somewhere under them.....I'm getting sillier by the minute I think...

Anyone want to buy a 33hp diesel remote grinder, will pay you to take it away..

Treemo

I heard a rumour of someone trying to excavate an unlopped Eucalyptus by digging around it until it fell over. This is a full grown tree.

It didn't end well as it fell exactly where it wasn't supposed to. No lives were lost though, which could of gone either way.

Brent Ferris

Yep, you get to hand dig, pull out by hand, and fill it back in. NO MACHINES ALLOWED. And if you screw up, it is your problem. The utilities attempt to mark out where their pipes and lines are, but give no indication of depth. Fortunately, gas lines are at least 3 feet deep, and water lines have to be at least 4 feet to avoid frost/freezing. But cables, phone, hydro - who knows? I have seen Hydro 3-4 feet deep --or more -- and have found it within 1 foot of surface. Cables are worst, typically 1-3 inches below the surface, and they often put them right by the tree, assuming no one will dig there. And if you cut one of those lines, be prepared to pay. It sure puts a damper on stump removal.

i have had locating out, and told no problems, and fortunately it was only a residential phone line. The stumper did a great job on the stump, and showed a piece of line sticking out on both sides afterwards. Since he had overhead lines as well, and locating had not found a ground line, they allowed I was not responsible for this job. But I can tell you, the client didn't want to answer the door, or his phone before I started -- but when I cut his internet connection, he was right there.

And yes, it does take many hours -- sometimes 3 to 4 days. And then getting the stump out of the yard and onto the truck and disposing of it -- more headaches. We sharpen our shovels to get thru the rock hard clay, sometimes a hammer drill/chisel helps, expose the roots, and then start with a reciprocating saw -- especially with the harder woods or the ones with hard to reach roots.

The good part is, you can tell the client you got all of the stump.

Eric Frei

LOL, I stump ground some-ones internet conenction the other day too.

I thought it was the wire that goes to the irrigation solenoids, so did he till that night when his internet didn't work.

What wanker plants a tree on top of the internet cable coming in the house?

I paid nothing, just showed my standard clause ont eh quote. He fixed it himself for like $20 anyway.

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bill24

Unbloodybelievable TSN,

You are one tough dude.............

Without giving to much of your pricing away whats a ballpark figure for a 600mm fir or pine.......I reckon you earn every cent by the way !!

Here most would get you to cut if of super low and put bark/chips over it.

Brent Ferris

bill24 - Thank you for your kind comments. Stump digging allows you to work out a lot of your frustrations.

Cutting it low is a possibility, and some people go that route, but I seldom cut it lower than 2 inches above the ground -- both to protect the saw, and to stop the lawnmower from running over and killing the lawnmower. And I make it clear, that if they want me to cut it low, and then remove the stump, the price quoted goes up 4-5 x or more.

Ballpark figures are always so interesting - not usually worth much, often highly inaccurate, I usually forget to add something in, or discount something. But, it sounds like you might want to try some of these onerous jobs - lol.

At the moment, I quote $10-12 per inch diameter - assuming good access, and the stump is 30" (900 mm) or smaller in diameter + cleanup + disposal -- assuming I am using a stump grinder. The price goes up above 30" . I don't do as many grindings these days. Presumably other people are cheaper. But also don't make much stump grinding, so that is ok.

If I am digging, up to around 10-12 " the price is 2-3x grinding price. Stumps up to 20-24" or so, price is more like 3 1/2 - 4 x, and 30" and up is a real guess, but at least 4 1/2 to 5 x - but this assumes the stem is at least 15-20 feet high, there is another strong tree within winching distance and there isn't a collection of "don't touch plants" in between.
The kind of tree certainly has a bearing - a solid hardwood like White Elm, or Honey Locust, or Black Locust - the price is increased. Softer woods like Poplar and Willow, and maybe pine or fir, can be a bit lower --but some of those conifers can get real hard when the tree is dying.

And then of course is the problem of getting the stump out of the hole - because the falling trunk doesn't always break the remaining roots (can't usually cut the roots directly under) nor lift the stump out of the hole. There is often a whole lot of dirt that has to be cleaned from roots to be able to move the stump. Clay resists the most. Allow at least half a day to remove soil if clay surrounds the roots.
And those trees that were planted with the wire cages, can be real nightmares to remove the soil from. Often get stabbed, and while I dump tea tree oil (or a salve with it) on it right away, also need to be sure my tetnus shot is within 8-10 years.

Then you have to get the stump out of the yard. After all, the only reason you have the job, is because the stump grinder can't get to it - like a backyard, or there are utility lines around, fences, concrete - neat stuff like that. There is almost always a gate to go thru. If there are stairs - start being creative. Hopefully they are down to the truck.
We did a double stem spruce stump 2 years ago, and had to place the stump in one orientation only to get thru the 29" gate (steel fence, couldn't be taken apart) We also destroyed the hand truck because the weight was on the uprights vs the base. We think the stump weighed between 300 and 400 pounds. (I should have gone over a scale)

Once you have the stump at the truck, and you use your skyhook crane to lift it on, there is the disposal problem. Chips aren't a big deal - a lot of places accept chips. But stumps?

Therrin

There's other ways to do that you know!

bill24

This'll be good, ala BOOOMMMM!!!!!!! (EDIT.........Just read the posts again, that must be an American thing Therrin, took me a while to wake up).................

Brent Ferris

Therrin is in California - maybe explosives can be used there.

But in Toronto, even firecrackers are frowned on - aside from specific holidays.

I am sure there are Therrin, but how many do you get paid for?

So bill24

If a 600 mm fir/pine normally goes for $240-280 + access to bkyd + cleanup + disposal, digging one out would be around 750-900 + cleanup + disposal

Most owners that want it out have small bkyds (and tight access - the alleyway is often only 30 inches across, and the gate about 18-24" opening) and they want to plant a tree in the same spot -- or close to it, because it is the only spot they have. A lot of yards are 25 ft wide or narrower, some around 15-16 feet. And some are short lots as well. If you leave the stump in, that is a significant part of the yard that is no longer usable.

No doubt the areas you work in are quite a bit roomier.

Brent Ferris

Ekka

How does your clause read that you can act with such confidence? WOuld you be willing to share it?

bill24

Good on you for not being afraid of hard work and good luck mate.

Pretty specialised job you do, wouldn't be to many around (that I know of) Aus. doing that and even less in country areas.

Things are generally roomier in country areas, if I had a lot of tight jobs I'd have to acquire a two wheel grinder or similiar.

An average cost for good access to a 600mm stump here would be <$200., that would be grinding stump/roots within say 1ft of stump and any above ground roots, raking up and leaving tidy.

Your grinding rates seem pretty attractive compared to here. Do you find much competition in Toronto ?

Brent Ferris

Hello bill24

All kinds. I generally find the competition quotes less, but also does less. THeir prices are low because a number of them only grind an inch (maybe 2) below the surface and cover it with soil. THe homeowner then wonders why the grass won't grow there. And conscientious contractors don't want to grind up a bunch of soil to try and find the stump.

In this economy, I am seriously thinking about selling the old stump grinder, and I wouldn't replace it. I never started it last year. All my jobs were backyard dig-outs.

10-15 years ago, you could always hear one or two chain saws in the distance, and see 1 - 3 tree trucks per week. Not any more. Permit restrictions, crappy economy -- a lot less work being done, and people would rather keep their stumps if money is tight....And it is tight! Unless you can show it is in their best interest to do them now. But unless the stump is in the backyard, or access is impossible without a small crane, (like behind a steel fence, up against the house, in a raised bed...) that is a very hard sell.

And people are wising up. The tree contractor doesn't make much on a stump, so has to make it on the tree. So those contractors that just do the tree, and leave the stump are dying out. WHich means the homeowner can't get the stump ground, so it has to be a package.
And some people do do only stumps. I know I wouldn't. Too many costs, too much vibration, too much liability. So I could subcontract a front yard stump.
I prefer trimming and removing, but have to include stumps as a package. But since almost all my work is in the backyard - digging can work. It is just lots of work. So it has to be priced to be fairly compensated (or at least approach fairness). After all, if you think it might take 2-3 days, and you are there for 3 1/2 -4, the homeowner knows they got a deal, and no longer quibble about the money. But I have never had a homeowner feel so bad they insisted on paying me more. Less, yes; More, no.

glennak

I have contractors do my stumps one only charges me $1/cm, thats what I charged 20 years ago.

Apocalypsse

Holy crap thats cheap. I wouldnt mind getting into stumps one day.

bill24

TSN, occasionally I get offered a tip, mostly I refuse as I believe a quote is a quote !

Glenn, your stump grinder is not making a $ at those rates, no way known!!,

$100 for a 1m stump, no way $50 for a .5 stump, not from me. He's slowly going broke just doesn't know it yet IMO.

bill24

I thought you sounded like you were already into them Apoc'

Brent Ferris

I agree with bill -- maybe he's trying to get contacts, and then raise his rates, but 25-30 years ago I charged $3/inch Plus cleanup and exposed roots, and couldn't make money. Maybe he's really well off and he's looking for a way to reduce his book profits.

Apocalypsse Why? IT is a really dirty job. You're always getting asked to grind stumps that take a lot of work, most have stones embedded in them and break or wear down the teeth, there can be steel around the tree - little stuff is ok on the teeth, big stuff shears the teeth off -- but little stuff, like nails, or bits of metal get thrown everywhere, some have an old fence inside -- the tree grew around (and outside show nothing), and glass bottles - you hear that little poof, and you better hope your guardian angel is with you that day. And then there are cables.
Oh, and don't forget when you haul that machine behind your truck, milage suffers a lot.
And maybe your dumps don't charge you to dispose of debris? But stump material has a lot of soil mixed in with the chips, and since most homeowners don't want lots of extra mushrooms, that extra stuff needs to be taken away, and soil is heavy. Our trucks are weighed coming in and out, and chips/branches are considered recyclable - so it is a cheaper rate -- just $1/13 kg. But if I do a day of grinding stumps, the debris I get rid of (as little as possible) typically costs $100-150-- for disposal only.

When the day is done, the only way I have made money is -- no rocks, machine stays attached to the truck, 3 or more good sized stumps on the same site, and it is a subcontracted job, and the main contractor does the cleanup. Residential homeowners seldom want to pay much. And commercial jobs usually take a long time to pay.


By all means, go with someone else and see what it is all about, offer to help with maintenance -- really get your hands dirty. And when the experience is over, stand back and ask yourself - do I really think I can make money at this? Do I want to? Why?

At least when you dig out stumps, there is a chance at making money. It is just a whole lot of work.

Eric Frei

I think you mean Glen's subbie.

The thing about charging per cm etc is you are getting a linear pay scale on an parabolic curve.

For example, a 50cm dia stump has a surface area of 0.2m2 and would be (according to the pay scale mentioned) $50 to grind. A 100cm dia stump has a surface area of 0.79m2 which is almost 4 times as much but pay has only doubled .... as the numbers increase it gets even worse.

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Brent Ferris

I agree Ekka So I raise the rates. I try to curb losses with the same price to 30 inches, and then add another dollar for every foot increase in diameter. It doesn't work all that well, but is a damn sight better than a straight linear function.

I suppose one day I should attempt to calculate volumes and get more realistic prices or costs. As you say, am charging linearly but working with a cubic function. Bound to lose money. But cubes are hard to sell, seems a lot of homeowners had trouble with squares, and cubes was far beyond them.

Apocalypsse

Im just an apprentice with 2.5 years to go before I can go free, just thinking about what I can do in the future.

In the 16 months in my previous job (small business of only 3-4 people), we never got asked to take material away from stump grinding. Sure you get all kinds of crap in stumps, we had the lot, we just added to the metal pile and took it to metal recyclers after a while. I've also never had to dump at a tip, we always had takers for mulch, even the god awful shit the chipper just crushed through the rollers and not actually chipped. So i've seen how dirty the job can be, but almost everything in the industry can get dirty, you can always find metal up in the tree along with a ton of rubbish.

Brent Ferris

Apocalypsse - Lucky you. Over here, almost nobody wants the chips and dirt - not clean see. And not everyone has a chipper (myself included) - problem of small driveways or no driveways (me) and no yard. Ah, the advantages of working small.

So all brush stays as brush, ground stumps need all the crap taken away - everything needs to look like you were never there. I just made life easier for myself by getting a lift installed on the truck. Loading is still aggravating, but tipping is usually easy.

Brent Ferris

.

So how long is the apprenticeship program?

Apocalypsse

Normally 4 years, 3 years of TAFE + 1 extra year with the company im with now. I was already half way through TAFE so I started as a 2nd year apprentice instead of first year.