Angled back cut| backcut| tree felling| back cuts

newguy18

Just seems easier for me to place a humboldt cut when taking a top out.

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HolmenTree

X2, humbolt topping a excurrent[conifer for example] for sure. As the top goes over and the hingewood breaks when the notch is closed there is less chance of the top going off track sideways or the butt kicking back.
Also a 45 degree notch is better then a 90 "V" notch while topping , when the 45 closes and the hinge breaks the top sails out from the tree for a little better control and usually lands flat.

newguy18

Its just what i've always done,no real reason behind it.

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Grais

Thanks Ekka.
Why oh why do people try to explain away their outdated and dangerous techniques, thank you for putting so succinctly the reasons not too make such a sloppy and unprofessional cut.
Every reason I have heard FOR using an angled BC sounded like a complete load of BS.
Stop a tree from going over backwards, stop the tree from sliding of the stump.....whatever, if you have those kinds of things happening, you have far bigger problems than a sloppy back cut, like perhaps finding a new line of work more suited to your haphazard ways.
Undercuts, and back cuts are very easy to do correctly and safely !
There is never any reason to do otherwise.

Like it or not, Arborist's around the world have to fight an image problem.
A LOT of people seem to think of tree trimmers/climber/loppers/etc.../etc... as a bunch of wild, uneducated, stinky and hairy bushmen, who couldnt cut it logging, and therefore have to make money cutting trees in the city.
A bit dramatic maybe but you get the idea right, so when an Arborist is making excuses for his sloppy, unacceptable(to me) work they are just re enforcing this stereo type and making us all look bad.
The sooner we ALL realize this and start working to change it, by NOT using unacceptable, unsafe, lazy work techniques and practices, the sooner it changes.
Don't misread the above bit, Im not trying to single anyone out, we can all improve, even if just a bit, I know theres lots of areas I can improve upon, and I work at it all the time !
Maybe some of use have more work in this regard than others, but we are all in the industry together, and it would behoove us all to remember and regard this.
Stay safe gang,

-Grais.

Therrin

How can you claim to be soooo Great, and be doing things with no real reason behind them, even after they've been proven to be inadequate as far as technique and procedure goes?

I think you need to take a SERIOUS look at who you are, what you're doing, where you plan on going with it, and pull your head out of your ass somewhere along the way Bill. I'm tired of reading half the shit you post.

Try having a GOOD REASON behind what you do, instead of "no real reason".

newguy18

The humboldt notch is outdated Ken?

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spartek

"IS GETTIN HOT IN HERE"I agree, I'm tired of reading you'e stupid and unsafe remarks and comments as well , Newguy. Sooner than later you're luck is going to run out, AND IT WILL. And some poor bastard is gonna have to scrape up whats left of you, but hell ,who cares , cause its the tree thats at stake, right??? I think you're hopeless, you'll never change. You don't listen or learn and you think you know every frikkin little thing there is to know about evrything. IMO, your must be insecure as hell, thats why you keep tootin your own horn. Hell,,, you're a real ONE MAN BAND. Keep up the good work. If you're so great, and you gotta shitcan safety and common sense , so you can get more trees done in one day , then by no means should you be wrenchin on some old piece of crap truck. You should slow down and raise you're prices. But it sounds like you aren't worth the price you are charging NOW!!! Sorry for being SO harsh, but when it comes time to responding to bullsh*t, this is the way , "I've always done it"

HolmenTree

As I said earlier I like the humbolt with a 45 degree opening because of the top being thrown out horizontially, but yes you get lots of bending in the stem. Now if I'm butt hitching the top down I put aleast a 70 degree opening in that humbolt or just a 90 V notch.
When a top goes over on a verticle standing tree the most backwards bending on the stem is when the top is at 45 degrees angle no matter what kind of notch you have. At this angle if you only have a 45 notch it will be closed which makes another force of energy transfer when the hinge breaks.When these two forces happen simultaneously [maximum bending movement and the top breaking free] you will have the greatest rocking movement of the stem. You will have alot LESS stem rocking if you went 70 but the top will land on it's tip if just free topping. So maybe I was a little premature on advising the 45 degree notch because of the structural dangers of certain trees.
Watch Heli-Loggers on tv and you will see they all free top with a humblolt, in 200 plus foot tall red cedar at 150 feet.

newguy18

Wtf is wrong with useing a humboldt cut for topping?Its not considered unsafe dumbass.I'm all about how quick and efficient i can work,which means ansi gets pushed to oneside daily,its good for a beginer but for someone who is experianced beyond all reason its not practical or safe,if i died tommorow i would not care,dying doesn't even make me flinch,just never bothered me.

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HolmenTree

I think they are talking about the top removal comment with a angled back cut and humbolt.

newguy18

Well hell,i just use a humboldt with a level back cut,i keep the back cut level with the under cut,cut the hinge up real thin and it reduces the movement do to less wood pull.

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Therrin

VS.

I think you also change up what you say your technique is as the climate of a discussion changes.

newguy18

I see you missed this quote Ken,I quit using the angled cut except for slice and spear cuts,your taking my quotes out of context to make me look bad.

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Therrin

Ahh, sorry. My bad. It really is difficult to keep up with how often you change when we bring these topics up. I must have just gotten confused in the whole mess of it all.

That came after the first part right? You should post up some pictures to get this thread really rolling NG.

newguy18

My new boss is a fan of the angled back cut,he says its how he was taught when he did right of way for asplunduh.He does things his way,i do things mine.

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Eric Frei

Please expand on this part.

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newguy18

I started with another company about 2 weeks ago.

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rick

Just dredging this oldie back up fella's

Just as an FYI, the angled back cut is taught as a legitimate and preferred method of falling a tree in Australia !

Yep, I was shocked too, and I know eff all but I've been told by experienced fallers that's a no no.

A mate did his Certificate course last year in SA after years of felling and was a bit taken aback at the angled back cut being shown to a bunch of novices as the way to do things, in particular wedging a tree over !
He privately took the instructor aside and explained his misgivings and reasons why he thought it was unsafe (particularly wedging) only to be told that's they way it was to be taught.

Eric Frei

well, how embarrassing for that trainer.

Pays to check, but also makes me wonder why the RTO didn't know.

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Eric Frei

I have found some reference to the angled back cut style technique in the book Wood - Internal Optimization of Trees 1995 by Mattheck and Kubler.

Seems the technique, or variation of technique, was used to try to prevent longitudinal splitting on harvest timber.

Scanned the 3 relevant pages as follows.

Attached Thumbnails

     

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Alon

Interesting stuff to see the origins of cuts. What about bore (plunge) cuts though? It enables you to create a correct hinge. It gives you a lot of control and you can even drive in wedges before you reach the end, preventing the tree to sit back on the cut. Maybe it prevents cracks as well. Matteck doesn't address that technique in those pages Ekka posted. I do believe, however, that a tagline should be installed if there is any doubt of where the tree is going to fall.

I use taglines for all tops, unless there is a lean the right way. It happened to me once that I was sweating because the wind was starting to push a perfectly balanced top (without a tagline) the wrong way, and it wasn't even that windy that day. The top fell the right way, but I swore to myself, never again...

When I went to school in Holland they taught us to actually cut into the hinge on both sides to eliminate the much stronger cambium. This enabled you to have a thicker hinge and it would still guide the tree to fall into the right direction and it (allegedly) prevents cracks. This was a felling course for forestry purposes, so the more better quality wood is available, the better. Of course when a tree has decay this is a problem. I stopped using this technique myself on felling trees, but I do still find it helpful when piecing out sections. Especially Elm likes to hang onto its cambium to the very end and making the cambium cuts leaves you with a bigger hinge and less effort to push the section over. Of course if there is a chance of decay do not use this!

As for Humboldt cuts, I never understood why they were used and whenever I tried to research the cut it would tell me it was used by loggers to fell trees on slopes. I didn't find it very useful so never used it, until I went to an excellent workshop by Mark Chisholm. He explained that the Humboldt was used so the tree would end up breaking out of the notch horizontally and therefore the stress upon impact was reduced and the redwoods would be less likely to break (since they are quite brittle).

Anyway, Mark demonstrated this cut on a top and showed the control one has with the Humboldt as opposed to a conventional cut. The top broke out horizontally and landed flat exactly where it was aimed. I am sure those of you who have been using this cut have seen these benefits and those of you who have not, should try the Humboldt sooner to experience this great cut when taking out tops.