Angled back cut| backcut| tree felling| back cuts

KidInTree

great thread was taught by my former boss to use the angled cut and he never could explain it to me in a way that it was a great advantage. after reading this thread i fully comprehend why it is a bad habit and shouldnt be used for falling.
thanks guyz

osb_mail

This would have been the type of video I would have made when I was 15 years old .

osb_mail

Ekka I dont like name calling please invite drew to your forum and lets teach him something.Give him
love.

Ekka

Not my job to love idiots, especially those who think they're experts, there's another hack forum full of such idiots where they'll love him alright.

I've given an email, a comment on his video, registered as a member there, registered as an expert there. Is that enough, since when is it my job to police the planets idiots and take on all the know nothings and point out there ignorance and dangerous practices?

Now the idiot can do as he chooses, and where's the rest of the industries great orgs, and what are they doing with their great numbers?

Just another example of "everyones an expert" in our field, that guys should get his facts straight. Look at the number of views of those videos, now how many more people are running around like fools doing stupid shit coz of some village idiot expert? Cant even put a helmet on his idiot head!

I'll call him what a like, and it's spot on!

For others, here's thread aimed right at the idiot.

Beware Expert Village Idiot Drew George Finn| Dangerous Felling Practices

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s.kerrone

In British Columbia, all of us that do professional tree falling have to be certified,(written and on site test),if we did just one of those unsafe acts we would lose are ticket!! Should be min.10 feet away from any tree being felled and try for some cover!! backcut has to be level,slightly above undercut!! The undercut on the video was not wide enough either!!(barber chair) I could go on and on about the video,pretty bad!!!

Ekka

Yes, it's a serious slap in the face for many of us. You guys in BC fell lots of pines, lots of timber, and have strict OHS due to deaths. 2 steps back the guy reckons.

Seems along with the box store dumbing down of our tools the weekend warriors are now training experts.

If this guy is a mechaincal engineer then he must be a dumb one. How much leverage is gained by sticking a rope that high on a trunk? Not bloody much. I dont even fell palms with the rope that low.

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southsoundtree

One point that I didn't see mentioned was the inability for the wedge to work as well. When the backcut is horizontal, the pressure from the underside of the wedge is directed downward into the stump, which can be compressed when dealing with decaying sapwood to begin with.

The higher the angle of the backcut, the more the wedge is forcing forward (as noted in multiple replies), but maybe more importantly, the wood below the wedge being pushed downward and backward is more likely to blow out under the load.

Plus 1 regarding the harder to line up sloping cut to allow for a perfect hinge.

Bruce Hopf

In newguy18's experience, with the tree going Backwards, I have that happen a lot too. . It is the fault of the Feller, who is Felling the Tree, by Misjudging the Top Weight of the Tree.
It is sometimes hard to Judge where a tree is going to go, especially in a Bush, where there is a lot of other Tree Branches, from other Trees, interfering your line of vision. .
I also have had trees getting hung up in other trees, and the but is still on the Stump. I just finish cutting it through, and I have to hook a Long enough Chain, or use a few Chains, hooked to the Tree, and use the Tractor to pull the Tree off the stump, and out of the Tree, that it is hung up in. With that angled back Cut, you would have a lot more work to get a Tree down in the same Case as I have described. Thanks for all the help, by Posting this information, and sharing your Experience, all of you. Bruce.

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Therrin

Seems to me that if you properly assessed the situation ahead of time and looked at what the tree might get hung up in, you'd go up and make the appropriate cuts and drop segments to allow you to fell it at the base without it snagging up above.

A tree snagging while felling is pretty dangerous... as far as dragging it out with a tractor, I hope that wasn't done on a customer's property; that could lead to serious damage of the other trees.

I'm sorry to hear that it happens to you "a lot". Yikes!

newguy18

Or climb it and wreck it out before felling just the trunk section.

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Bruce Hopf

Presently, I have a few Trees, that have been Blown over, by the wind, and they are hung up in another Tree. Once they are off the stump, you can drag them out, of the other Tree, with very minimal Damage.
Been operating in the Bush this way, for close to 35 Years now. Have to hook your Chains low to the bottom of the But, and low as possible on the Tractor, and pull it out slow.
I don't misjudge a tree very often, when Felling it, but it does happen. Bruce.

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1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's,
2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener,
1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver
2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10
Stihl chain saws
2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084,
Strunk chain saws
1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special
Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

rbtree

Just found this thread. Subject has been discussed elsewhere many times. Ekka's post below is the best explanation yet seen for why to never use a sloping backcut. (Save for spear cut applications.)

newguy18

Yep,exactly why i don't use it anymore,only time i use an angle cut is for the slice cut.

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rbtree

What's funny is, my climber Dave, who really is talented, thinks the angled backcut is good. Apparantly some oldtimer showed it to him years ago. He's pretty sure of himself, and doesn't like to be corrected, so I tread lightly---now--after he got so mad when I called him on it last fall, that he threw his sandwich and kicked his lunch box.

However, he also just lost a back leaner onto a shed on our Sunday job. Tried a too deep face cut, his second face didn't line up, and Andy didn't have enough tension with the truck on the pull line. Tree barberchaired and went over backwards. Small tree, no damage done, save to Dave's ego. No one said anything.



In the pic, the intended felling direction was to the left. The cut on the right was made afterwards, to cut off the chaired sliver, which went up 8 or so feet.

kylekurt

as an ex logger I was taught by some seasoned veterans. They always said to cut staight in, then come up with your under cut and straight in from the back. It is amazing how much you can lift a tree with a couple of wedges.

spartek

Looks like "climber Dave" has no clue as to what he is doing.Who is working for who? There's noway in hell I would bring that kind of work to a customers property that I am responsible for. And as far as throwing and kicking stuff around , well that would literally put me over the edge. This business demands respect of physics , skill , and knowledge. I fell huge spars all the time , many well over 40'' dia. @ 50'-60'. You have a responsibility to provide the safest work practices that you can , for the customer, the public, yourself and anyone else involved. This means that you must not tolerate incompetence , not ever. If it's a trainee ,then teach him the right way. If he wont listen, then send his ass down the road,**NO ECXEPTIONS*** . Egos get people killed all the time. Its no fun seeing your buddy get killed , been there done that. I'm sorry for getting hot ,but Ive witnessed death TOO MANY TIMES , and they were ALL preventable. I'm in charge on my jobs and I listen to and in fact encourage opinions from my men. They point out things I overlook and vise-versa. PROFESSIONALISM IS A MUST , and cannot be comprimised.

rbtree

Actually, spartek, Dave is an exceptionally good arborist, been at it 28 years. I've worked with 3 ITCC champs, am no slouch myself, but Dave is capable, and probably faster at removals than anyone I've seen. He does goes too fast sometimes, and may underrig, compared to me, but knows his stuff.

Save for his danged sloping backcuts....

and that little tree yesterday. He stopped Andy as he was taking some of the lean out with his pickup truck, as its best to put the face cut in first...But he was apparantly messing with this idea he has of an off horizontal face on side leaners...and cut too deep.


40" at 50' Wow!!! In Ohio? , got pics?

spartek

Im sure Dave knows his stuff if you say he does. We all have some work that we're not proud of,lol . I try to hide my stupid work . I 'm sure Dave is your bud, and I just hate seein buds get hurt when it shouldn't happen in the first place . Its a empty feeling when your pals left the job under a blanket and you're sittin there starin at his lunch box that hasn't even been opened for the day. Ans yeah , we got some huge pin oaks out here in S.W. Ohio. I seem to get alot of these big old oaks past couple a years. Last one I did was 44' at base and 50' of spar,probably around 24,000 LBS or so. I had no place to anchor guy ropes to in the direction of fell , had to drive pins in the ground and take up slack to them as back-up, asI onlyhad 10' of clearence between 7200 volt phase and a customers garage. I'm still workin on getting some pics on here. I'm terrible when it comes to computer images

rbtree

That'd be closer to 40,000 lb, depending on the top diameter...

Pm me if you could use more help with images.

Google is a good, free photo organizer and editor. It will find all your image files.....then you can edit them......including resizing.....you can also export them to picasa's web storage site. Whether it's a file on your hard drive, or online, it's easy to upload to the forum.

Ekka

I used to do that angled back cut too back in 1999 ... many did, it was common till I got told better, but no-one really explained it well diagramatically, the physics, why.

Ask Dave to read this thread and look at the diagrams.

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JohN Dee

Look at that.

He's been at it 28 years and still makes newbie face cuts and cuts through his hinge. That picture right there if it were an Australian incident and had killed someone would put him away for industrial man-slaughter. Negligence mate after 28 years...

Also HE DOESN'T LIKE TO BE TOLD MUCH and when he is told chucks a temper tantrum. That aint no good climber, not in my books NO WAY. Yeah sure he may be fast and might have skill (unproven in that pic), but good listening skills (communication) are apart of making a good climber. Your guy is stuck in a rut mate.

Tell him to get on here and he can learn something.

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IndependentInNH

OMG! I have been watching the Villiage Expert videos to get refresher info and learn. I was smart enought to know my own experience and I also am always over safe when possible. I always use leverage when possible even if its just to be safe. I was taught by an old friend in the late 80s to always use the angle cut. I just felled about 10 trees in my back yard using the angle cut. Most were leaning in the direction I wanted them to go so it worked well. I always use the natural lean of the tree whenever possible. I use a come along and double rope on some to be safe. Now I am felling some back leaning trees and am using a 3200 lbs rated Warn winch with thier rigging kits and bought some 10,400lb rate rope online. A small 8 in diamiter came right over 180 degrees with the winch. I always use my wife to run the winch. Someone who I can trust and will winch when I say and the amount I say. It was hanging over my neighbors fence. I always use a throw bag to get as high as possible. Now most of the trees are 16 in in diameter or less and are Maple or Ash or Oak. Range 50 to 125 feet.

I would like to thank all the posters as I now am looking at 2 16 in diameter that are leaning towards the house some that I was giong to cut and winch down at about 90 dregee angle from the lean, but will call a PRO to do these for me.

I also bought a Big Shot slingshot to get the rope up over 50% the height of the tree.

I would also like to say to any other new tree fellers, Always use the escape route get out as far as possible when it starts to go down.

Any links to safe instuctional sites or videos and welcome.


Thanks guys for the great info.....Indy

treejames64

Great thread..Eric touched on spearing but I stll use in when roping whole tree's down. I use a humbolt cut and a slanted back cut so the tree slides straight down. Top is tied with to a large letdown hung in another tree. The bottom usually hits the ground on the first cut so we have to do it again on a second cut. Then we lower it down and cut it off in 4 foot sections. Works great for tight areas and very fast.

Galbee

if your cutting through the hinge then why cut a humbolt gob just cut up at an angle and then down at an angle either way you have no control of the tree, there is a reason for the gob and hinge with a level back cut it gives some control of direction speed and can be adjusted to suit the situation.

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HolmenTree

I will give you the TWO REASONS why the angled backcut is used or accepted by many cutters.
#1-Poor feeding of sawchain into tree due to dull or improperly sharpened chain. It is much easier to push a dull saw through a tree in a downwards direction right?
#2- Pure laziness.
I have taught chainsaw maintenance and use to many different groups of people. I really opened my eyes on the subject of the angled backcut, when teaching a crew of a government owned hydro company employees who do powerline clearance cutting.
Their head safety man swore by the angled backcut in his defence of my instruction of people with dull saws or laziness make angled backcuts. I took him aside and asked him who trained him. He replied in his farming community it has been accepted for many years. I told him I have over 30 years of logging and arborist work under my belt . When I then saw he had no thorough proper understanding of sawchain maintenance I then saw the problem.
Lets all start with the basics: "Proper sawchain maintenance", and most important learn and practice how to quickly touchup a chain in the field with a file.

treejames64

I've tried it that way and it doesn't always slide off the stump. Because the whole tree is being roped at once. (we climb a tree beside it, set up a good crotch, run a half hitch around the top of the tree coming down, drop down 10 ft, tie another half hitch, than a running bowline. This keeps the tree from flipping over when we saw the sections off as it comes down.) Any way the rope at the top keeps the tree from really hingeing so you have to have it slide off the bottom cut ( the humbolt bed works better). I'll post some picture on the next one I do. The control comes from the stable braid at the top.

Galbee

ah you didnt say you were top tieing it! that system works ok for that i see your way of doing it but how about when youcant tie it up?

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pomie

hi guys on the subject of a humbolt if you use it to take a top out of a tree would,nt it make the top of the tree spring more as the fibres are holding on longerand further in the felling

newguy18

nope,i use a humboldt cut almost every time i take the top out of a tree.

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treejames64

I think that's the only time I really use it (when roping whole trees). It was originally developed by the loggers to have a squared off log at the bottom of the tree. I've tried it a few times in a tree thinking that the tree wouldn't wobble as much (on dead trees) however it doesn't seem to matter if you have a wide bed cut or a humbolt cut both come off about the same. Now a little skinny bed will give you a lot more snap and wobble.