8 years and no break down in the cage

Nickel

I have been spending the nice fall weather working under spruce trees, pruning off the bottom few limbs to get a look at the trunk flare and have attached a photo of what I found in one of my searches. A green spruce tree planted 8 years ago with its basket, burlap and nylon rope all still firmly attached. The tree trunk had grown into the nylon rope that the tree planter neglected to remove (could have from at least one side of the cag, don't ya' think?) I firmly believe the tree roots need to be examined before burying -- and what ever problems that are found should be dealt with then.
What are your experiences?

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Jason Axe

i find that with nearly all yard trees here in ohio, and about every stump i grind thats under 12 inches has the wire basket grown into it, the home owners wonder why the trees health was slowly declining....mabey girdling roots??

Eric Frei

Have a look at this post, is the wire burlap you speak of the same as this crap I ground?

Also, what do you do if you run into that wire bag?

Crazy street tree planting Ipswich

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Nickel

Yep...... that's looks like the cage in your photo. Burlap, cage, and nylon rope looked just as new as it did 8 years ago... no breaking down of anything in the cold Alaskan soils.... well, that's not totally true... BUT -- frustrating to find the cage and have to tell the homeowner that I don't know if it will or will not survive due to the stranglation the past 8 years.... and we all cry!
It's a wire basket and if through root exacavation I find that the roots are not able to break through the basket, I dig and dig until I get at the basket and I clip the heavy wire until I can clip no more..... then.. lots of water and a prayer to Mother Nature for forgiveness for the previous planter.
I've attached another photo of the poor spruce.

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Garry Brockley

jeez guys you hit some crap, the people who plant these well hey what can you say they dont own a stump grinder for sure. It sounds like a metal detector is needed on all trees and stumps before carrying out any work, i wonder if they make one that a climber could use?

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Nickel

Ah yes, a metal detector.... another 'must have' for an arborist's toolbox! I don't know what to say about those folks that use 'plop & drop' planting techniques other than 'find somebody else', Educate - educate - educate! Think of the big picture and how it's not about how fast you can plant and move on to the next job, but how you can help the tree become what it should be by thinking about what you're planting in the ground (as compared to it being all about what is planted above the ground). I know in this forum I'm "preaching to the choir".. so thanks for allowing me to vent.. We are having a beautiful fall here in Alaska. The trees are showing their colors and it puts everyone in a better mood.

tcs

Nickel thanks for your comment(s)appreciated ,
What is the DBH on this tree? could make a subs diff as far as future growth ..to remove or leave orange nylon twine.If its fullly encumboured then maybe a prob which you will have o figure out whatsbiz who oved to calif what as far as cambium layer goes etc. kind of a tough somewhat calculated call there. spring feed no matter what would further help this tree too. I had a goood friend there in town with a tree who moved to calif..D.Roley. Good guy . TCS

Nickel

DBH on this spruce is 6".. you confused me on what you were saying about the cambium layer (typo?).. I cut what I could of the nylon rope but
didn't bother trying to yank it out where the tree swallowed it. Sorry, never heard of D. Roley... only 38 certified arborists in the whole state of Alaska so we are a small group.

pcarborist

Nickel, I would, a claw hammer and vise-grips work wonders. BTY, this practice is way too common here in PC, UT. Like yourself, I spend an inordinate amount of time fixing what others have done.

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parkcityarborist

Nickel

pcarborist: thanks for the response but I learned that if I couldn't get the wire, rope, nail, etc. out from the tree easily, I should just leave it alone as it does more damage to rip something out. What experiences have others had on this?

pcarborist

. Nickel, you're right if the bark starts to separate form the trunk you should back off. However, I've found once you get it started and go slow with steady pressure you can safely remove the poly twine. If the twine doesn't pull out from a right angle, sometimes you can remove it tangentially (however this requires cutting the twine in shorter sections). Another trick I use is If you closely examine the circumference of the girdling, you'll find the embeddedness is not uniform. where the twine is least embedded is where I will often start. Another thing you never want to try to remove twine in the spring when the xylem is what Shigo calls "like jelly".

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parkcityarborist

Nickel

PCArborist.....thanks for your 'two cents'. I just went to your website and see that you are an tree/landscape appraiser as well as your other titles... I have just finished my first tree appraisal (with 70 trees to appraise) and sure could have used some technical assistance from those who have the experience. Do you remember your first appraisal and unsuredness?

pcarborist

Nickel, I don't remember my first appraisal (I'm an old dude) but, I just finished one that was over $90k. This one is going to court.

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parkcityarborist

Nickel

PC Arborist -- my "first" and only tree appraisal quote was for $72,700 and with the calculations for the understorage was nearing $100,000. We are going to court in January. I'm pleased to be able to give the trees 'a voice' by giving them a worth! But boy it's a heart pounding experience. I'm an 'old gal' myself... just didn't pursue my passion until I figured out I wasn't going to be a millionaire in the business world.

pcarborist

Nickel, it's good to meet a kindred spirit. I worked in AK back in 1980, for the Tongass NF. I got to spend a fair amount time on Admiralty Island right after Carter made it a Natl Monument, it was just across the Peril Straights from our camp, on Chichagoff Isl. The spruce/hemlock c.t. in SE AK rivals the redwoods.

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parkcityarborist

Nickel

Thanks PCArborist........ you do my heart good. Question for you on appraisal billings. I sent off a billing for 12 hours at $75/hr and NOW the attorney tells me she wants those 12 hours broke down to what I did and for how long. Now, it being my first appraisal I can promise you I worked a quadzillion hours researching and rechecking and reading the Guide from front to back.... hours I can't charge for to help with my learning curve, but
I'm thinking the attorney just wants to mess with me... what is your experience on the invoice/billing readings... Like I said, I think she is just 'pulling my chain' because it's my first appraisal (I can't tell you how many times she's pointed THAT out)... thanks for talking to me.

pcarborist

Nickel, first of all, I tell the client what exactly my rates are up front, so there's no surprises (I have a field rate and I have an office rate). If they agree to that, then I give them an estimate of what I think the total appraisal will be, give or take 20% or so (I've done enough now I can usually tell how long it will take). BTY, this 20% figure includes all the inevitable edits I know I'm going to make to set it right with the client. As far charging for researching the Appraisal Guide, you are correct, I wouldn't charge for that because after all you are the "appraisal expert" right? However, researching for what it would cost to return the site precasualty is a different matter. This last appraisal I did included both the Trunk formula and the Replacement Method. As you know the TF is pretty straight forward-just plugging in numbers. However, the RM took several hrs calling around and getting various bids, this time was charged. Maybe you could charge similarly. Hope that helps.

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parkcityarborist

Nickel

thanks again for your response PCArborist.... I DID advise the attorney of an hourly rate upfront.. and advised I wanted a retainer of $500, too. She blew me off on the retainer and said she would pay when I sent the bill. I flew down to Kodiak to look at the site and flew back -- a whole day affair that I only charged a couple hours for.. and talked to anyone who would talk to me about the job.... IE: getting estimates for tree prices (it was a 1/2 acre of Sitka Spruce growth that was chained sawed down) as well as installation, guarantee...2 yr maintenance, etc. I did the trunk formula method to complete my appraisal since all the trees had DBH greater than 8" and all I had to go by was the stumps and the surrounding landscaping. What makes me irritated is paperwork........auck.......

pcarborist

Nickel, was this 1/2 ac. spruce in a landscape or natural setting?

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parkcityarborist

Tiberius

Hello all, I was searching the forum for any information on metal cages / baskets found around trees and found this thread. So I figured I would post here instead of creating a new thread on the same issue. I have a similar problem as was found by the OP on the spruce tree. I have several trees in my yard in Illinois that were planted with the metal cage and burlap intact, about 11 years ago. The tree's ages are all probably 12-15 years old I'd guess.

In 2009, I noticed one of my trees, a red maple, was not doing so well. 7-10 branches had died. The tree had about a 4" DBH. So I consulted a plant expert from a university. They pointed out that the tree was deep planted, as the previous owner had piled soil around the base of the trunk. So I proceeded to remove this soil and a lot of burlap. I found some roots encircling the tree and removed them. For the last two years I have watered and fertilized the tree, and it is doing well.

So in 2010, I investigated a sugar maple in my yard that was also deep planted. I removed the soil on top, and I found some girdling roots and a metal cage! I could clearly see the major tree roots going through this metal cage, so I didn't consult anybody and just decided I had to remove the cage. I dug by hand around all the roots and managed to remove the top two horizontal rings of this cage. That's the deepest part of the cage I figured I could reach by hand. The metal cage was not easily cut, it was fairly thick and I had to use a reciprocating saw with a metal cutting blade. It took a very long time to dig around the roots by hand and cut out that cage. I posted some pictures below with a 12" ruler for judging scale.

I thought the metal cage was only around the Sugar maple until this year. I started poking around a littleleaf linden in my yard, and guess what? I found another metal cage, arghhh!!! I inserted some pictures below. I then found the metal cage around the red maple in my yard as well, you can imagine my reaction.

So I have a question. Do I need to remove the metal baskets? I'm guessing yes from what I've read so far. If so, how much of the metal baskets do I need to remove to prevent future tree health issues? I'm also wondering if I need to re-visit the sugar maple and try to remove more of the cage than the top two horizontal rings.

And as far as excavating the roots, I really do not want to do it by hand again! I know the pro's use an air knife tool. But from what I've read, I'd rather not go that route because of the noise and the mess they make. Plus I would need to rent a compressor and fabricate an air tool. Is there a simple method that uses water? I was thinking of a low power pressure washer so I don't peel the bark off the roots, and a small sludge pump to pump the water/mud into a large trash can or something like that.

All help is appreciated. Thank you.

Pictures:
Here is the sugar maple. I had removed the mound of soil from the top, revealing some girdling roots. You can see the line on the bark where the soil level used to be.


Here is the wire I removed from the sugar maple, the ruler is for scale.


This is what the sugar maple looked like after I was done cutting out the wire.


Here is the littleleaf linden where I just discovered more wire. You can see the line on the bark where the soil level used to be.


Here is a close-up of the wire around the linden. I put red arrows pointing out the top two horizontal rings of the metal cage.

Victor Lindsay

I see one of the problems...planting too deep.

Tiberius

Yeah, they were planted a bit deep, and the previous owner had mounded up soil around the base of the trunk and covered it in mulch. I guess it was for aesthetics. I'm concerned now about the cage. If I remove the top two horizontal rings of the metal cage, that would make the top 8"-10" or so of soil "wire free" around the tree. I'm wondering if that's enough to prevent future root problems. But I'm thinking it may be dependent on the roots of the tree. Should I just see how deep the primary roots are around the trunk, and try to dig and snip the cage just below those?

Eric Frei

I'd say do your best and try to get as much as you can .... just like in this thread what PC arborist says, "I've found burlap still intact after 10 yrs and 30 y.o spruce trees with wire growing inside (and constricting) buttress roots".

Low pressure water jetting and vacuum can still peel bark off as it's wet making it easier.

Hydro Excavation| Vacuum trenching| water vac

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Brent Ferris

I have never found the metal cage makes much difference -- if it did trees would not be able to encapsulate chain link fences so easily. However, the burlap bag can still be intact after 10 years and the nylon rope to hold the bag in place can strangle the tree's stem. THe burlap virtually forces the tree roots to grow in a circular formation, So remove the burlap, nylon cord, girdling roots, and leave the metal cage alone.

I have tried pressure washers - looks better on paper - get covered in mud, and soaked and the hole stays with a slurry of mud, and hard to get rid of the mud -- takes a long time to dry,
Hand digging is a lot cleaner, and in the long run -- easier

When grinding a stump with the metal cage, the grinder either slices it up and spits out shards or stops the machine. It is also a pain in the arms when digging the stump out by hand,. At least it helps the tree planters....

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