2 stroke exhaust gases

serialtreekiller · 13th February 2011, 06:29 PM

2 stroke exhaust gases, how poisonous are they?
Can anyone tell me what the long term effects of working with chainsaws and saw dust has on your lungs?

Eric Frei · 13th February 2011, 06:37 PM

Dangers of two-stroke engines

Quote:

May 31, 2009

Toxic ... emissions from two stroke-engines in boats and lawnmowers may pose a health risk.
Two-stroke engines commonly used for gardening and boats can cause serious health problems including cancer, a Griffith University environmental scientist has said.

Dr Ross Sadler of the university's School of Public Health said two-stroke engines released dangerous emissions such as benzene, a colourless hydrocarbon derived from petroleum that can cause health problems including cancer.

The engines are used in marine outboards and gardening equipment including whipper-snippers, mowers, leaf blowers, edgers, trimmers and chainsaws.

''Health problems associated with benzenes and other emissions from two-stroke engines can include headaches, general weakness, increased susceptibility to allergens andbone marrow toxicity,'' Dr Sadler said.

''Repeated use of two-stroke engines significantly increases the chances of people suffering such health problems.''

He said whipper-snippers were of particular concern because the engines were at face level and the inhalation of fumes was greater. ''Not everyone using this equipment is going to get cancer but there's certainly an increased risk with regular use,'' he said.

The equipment was also bad for the environment, he said.

''These things are incredibly noisy and a source of noise and air pollution.''

Dr Sadler said health authorities had not agreed on acceptable levels for warnings on labels.

Emissions were far worse in two-stroke engines than four-stroke ones, he said.

Minister for the Environment, Heritage and the Arts, Peter Garrett, said the department was working with state, territory and local governments, as well as industry, on how best to reduce emissions from two-stroke engines.

He said Environment Protection and Heritage Council ministers discussed the issue in November when it was agreed to develop a Regulatory Impact Statement (RIS) on how best to set national standards.

Results of the RIS were expected to be released in November, he said.

The department's website says two-stroke engines emit volatile organic compounds, oxides of nitrogen, particles, carbon
monoxide and a range of air toxins, such as benzene.

While the United States, Canada and Europe regulated emissions from outdoor equipment, Australia had no regulations or
standards that limit air pollutant emissions from engines used in outdoor garden equipment.

''Small engines are not as advanced in environmental terms as motor vehicle engines,'' it says.

''As a result even the better-performing small engines emit far greater quantities of pollutants per hour than typical modern car engines.''

On the other hand I'm still gobsmacked that Queenslanders can get petrol engines like outboards and jet skis on our water supply dams and run amok!

Must be that "Smart State" thing.

Garry Brockley · 16th November 2011, 07:24 PM

So many times buried deep in some canopy or other running a chainsaw i have had to stop the saw climb out to fresh air and thought this cannot be good for me.
i spoke to a good mate of mine today and he really hates these pollutants in chainsaws and it reminded me of this,
i carry masks in the truck but i dont think even these would help, with the amount of times that as tree workers we get exposed to these carcinogens i wouldnt be surpised if the industry has a higher rate of bone and lung cancers.
Stihl say in thier manual "Your power tool produces toxic exhaust fumes as soon as the engine is running. These gases may be colorless and odourless and may contain unburnt hydrocarbons and benzene." from what i have read the engines expell up to 30% of the fuel each time it fires. a very inefficient system!

do the benzine levels in 2 stroke fuel count and if so...

how many employers say in NSW of Victoria have registered the use of a Carcinogenic substance with work cover and informed thier staff of the potential dangers of breathing these in?

how many law suits are we going to see in the future regarding these poisons.

WorkCover Authority of New South Wales - Carcinogenic substances notification

http://www.workcover.nsw.gov.au/form...ances_2215.pdf

how many of us really pay any attention to the fact that we are at serious risk of future serious diseases that have the ability to kill or maim us?

The EPA have been on to this problem for years.
http://www.epa.gov/ncea/pdfs/benzenef.pdf

so next time you have sticky sap on your hands or saw think before you use a lid full to clean it off and avoid breathing those fumes they will literally kill you.

serial tree killer "Can anyone tell me what the long term effects of working with chainsaws and saw dust has on your lungs?"
breathing dust can cause Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease - PubMed Health
i lost my grand father to this from his time as a rock worker in north wales.

Eric Frei · 17th November 2011, 06:07 AM

Here's a link to a 2003 paper from Canada:-

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfp/publica...wEmissions.pdf

There are some assumptions made to come up with the data, that is how long a person is exposed, in forestry it would be a lot more than in urban tree work. Even in forestry they say it's about 50% of the working day. And they are at ground level all day, in forests where wind isn't prevalent and often with snow.

Climbers on the other hand often use a smaller saw (200T), are aloft with better air circulation and do not have the saw running tank after tank. Honestly in my experience it would be unfair to say anyone is on a saw 50% of the day......

Quote:

Conclusions
Workers using chain saws (and brush saws) are
exposed to benzene and 1,3-butadiene which are
considered to be known human carcinogens.
Very few chemicals are so classified.
Polyaromatic hydrocarbons, several of which are
suspect human carcinogens, are also in the
exhaust mix as is carbon monoxide.
Available data suggest that exposures to these
substances may reach unacceptable levels under
some working conditions. The sum of excess
cancer risks (without an estimate for PAH or
other suspected genetic toxicants in exhaust) is
estimated to be on the order of 10-3 to 10-5 (one
chance in 1,000 to one chance in 100,000). As
time-to tumour (latency) of benzene, and
differences among individuals in metabolizing
benzene are better defined, risk estimates may
change.
Carbon monoxide and neurotoxic hydrocarbon
exposures may be sufficient to cause systemic
intoxication and impair work performance and
safety.
It is imperative that studies be conducted in the
field to measure worker exposure under the
variety of conditions of manual brush
management. Only with such measurements can
it be determined whether such work is taking
place under conditions of acceptable safety.

Recommendations
1. While the estimated significant cancer risks
associated with exposure to benzene, 1,3-
butadiene and BaP may not be taken as a
signal for immediate operational disruption,
they do demand immediate study of exposures
(breathing zone atmospheres) under the
various work conditions of manual brushing.
An evaluation of the importance of other
hydrocarbons to worker health and safety is
also critical.
2. Breathing zone exposure measurements of CO
should be coupled with sequential blood
analyses of carboxyhaemoglobin (COHb)
during and after work periods, with simultaneous
analysis of physical performance to
determine the true impact of carbon monoxide
(CO) exposure in brushing operations.
3. Along with analytical work, a survey of
subjective operator experience should be
carried out. Other studies have indicated that
loggers experience nonspecific intoxication
leading to headache, nausea and respiratory
irritation.
4. Mitigation measures should be explored,
even if exposure information is not complete.
a. Mitigation might take the form of
working with power equipment only at
some minimum on-site wind level, which
will dilute the emissions and the risks.
b. Engineering solutions to the exposure
problems should be explored. For
example, it may be possible to lead
exhaust away from the operator in such a
way that it has velocity enough to move
some distance before diffusing. A typical
saw muffler diffuses the flow of gases in
every direction, at the saw. Exposure of
other workers must be considered in such
an effort.
Efforts to design four-cycle engines and
catalytic converters for hand-held
applications are underway, with some
limited introduction to the market
already. In the case of chain saws, which
often operate inverted, success does not
seem likely. USEPA is proposing
emissions regulations for non-road
engines of all classes, and in co-operation
with manufacturers is evaluating
engineering changes that will achieve
these goals. This type of research should
be considered in this effort to devise new
generation machines.
c. Benzene and other highly toxic
substances reach the breathing
atmosphere as part of the unburned fuel.
Steps to require reformulated gasoline,
free of benzene and some other toxic
components should be explored, drawing
on the Swedish experience, where such
requirements are in place.
d. It is not likely that or respirators are a
useful solution to exposure in this kind of
work. Respirators require care, replacement
of filters, and proper fit, and when
not working properly can cause more
harm than they prevent. Comfort and
convenience are low, and vision is likely
to be obstructed, which is safety
impairment itself.
5. Continuing attention should be paid to
advances in the field of risk assessment, for
most effective use of any exposure data
obtained.
6. If manual brush control with power tools is to
be used as a means of reducing unemployment
or as an entry into the forestry labour
pool, the ethical and policy implications of
the potential accompanying health risks must
be given close attention. Such policy
decisions are beyond the realm of scientific
analysis, but must include an objective and
thorough examination of the risks for each
option. A requirement of informed consent of
workers, with the attendant education and
training efforts may be necessary. Such
labour as manual brush control is taken for
granted as “safe” by workers, employers,
resource management agencies, and the
public. This lack of understanding must be
dealt with if future liability is to be avoided.

Done it · 17th November 2011, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garry Brockley

So many times buried deep in some canopy or other running a chainsaw i have had to stop the saw climb out to fresh air and thought this cannot be good for me.

how many of us really pay any attention to the fact that we are at serious risk of future serious diseases that have the ability to kill or maim us?

It's always been on my mind, cutting in places like that. Cutting off stumps and working around here in tight spots surrounded by colourbond fences.

A good thing to have is a Hair Analysis Test, it can show a lot of things a blood test will not.

'Drug and chemical residues, toxins, heavy metals, and radiation present in the body embed in hair fibre proteins. Hair has the advantage of long-term memory. It's a permanent record, like tree rings. A three-inch strand of human hair can provide a six-month history of the elements present inside the body because head hair grows at an average rate of one-half inch a month'

I can recommend a good company, [not the one that quote is from] Not expensive and a very detailed report. If anyone wants it just PM me, they do it by mail.

Some of you might have to grow a bit of hair for a couple of months though.

George Valentine · 17th November 2011, 09:35 PM

Yes, too much of anything is never good to no one and in circumstances where I'm using a "smoking" chainsaw for log periods of time such as my Chinese N90 Stihl imitation either cutting large timbers or milling with its GB 44" milling frame, and or any times where a chainsaw is used in confined spaces without much air through it, I use these masks 3M P2 N95 Face Masks Valved Respirator - Box of 10 - SUITABLE FOR SWINE FLU PROTECTION | Esidirect. I also use the P1 and P2 valved masks for wood dust on some equipment I use in my shed.

It doesn't filter 100% of the nasties but I feel a lot better (no headaches) using them particularly for the chainsaws and other 2 stroke equipment I use...!

The thing is, the industry has a reputation of having tough people working on it, can you imagine most fellows, particularly the young ones to accept to use one of these masks while operation a chainsaw in public...??? no chance, unless it becomes a legal condition for chainsaw operations under their contract...!

OK, not every time one needs a mask when operating a chainsaw, and I' yet to see a chainsaw operator, regardless of his competency, experience, age or certifications, even if he is coughing his lungs out chocked with 2 stroke smoke.

This same company "esidirect" has great safety equipment, including working and climbing gloves not forgetting the very good cut resistant gloves series, with particular attention to the Cut Resistant Gloves - Ninja Silver Plus (P515) Cut Level 5 | Esidirect that I use on my bandsaw and on many "tricky" chainsaw work.
They have saved my hands from some potentially serious cuts, pretty much like chainsaw chaps, when damaged, never use them again, just replace them, economical choice, really...!

Cheers
George

KevinE · 19th November 2011, 09:39 AM

This is something that has always worried me! I find that I do get headaches if using 2 strokes in confined spaces, but I'm sure the muffler mods we do on our saws don't help in that regard either. For me, the worst is when I'm stretching as far up as I can with the HT75 to get high branches - I seem to be sucking straight exhaust fumes! Next would be 2 stroke hedge trimmers, they all seem to have the exhaust right under your nose while you're "stroking" upwards to trim a shrub/hedge. In an effort to reduce my intake of 2 stroke exhaust fumes, I mostly use the combi tool hedge trimmer, as the engine sits behind me while I'm working. I also use a good electric hedge trimmer where I can. Top handled saws seem to blow the exhaust out sideways away from me & as long as I'm in an open space, I don't really notice any ill effects.

I'm guessing that the risks are reduced at 50:1 over 25:1?

Glen Poulton · 19th November 2011, 06:48 PM

In my limited experience cutting seasoned ironbark at ground level using both a Stihl MS290 and MS391 it would be doubtful I could get a constant run that adds up to 50% of the day, however I was noticing a heat difference between the two saws. I run the 290 with an Oregon bar and since changing the 391 from a Stihl bar to an Oregon bar it seems to be performing better with less heat. Less heat = less emissions.

Kenny Koala · 21st November 2011, 08:24 AM

2 stroke 4 stroke doesn't matter.

Taking in any exhaust fumes will be bad for your health

Unleaded fuel burnt in anything that hasn't got a catalytic convertor isn't good either

Garry Brockley · 21st November 2011, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenny Koala

2 stroke 4 stroke doesn't matter.

Taking in any exhaust fumes will be bad for your health

Unleaded fuel burnt in anything that hasn't got a catalytic convertor isn't good either

apparently a catalytic converter makes no difference to the emissions emmitted

13th February 2011, 06:29 PM	#1
serialtreekiller Former Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: brisbane Posts: 49	2 stroke exhaust gases 2 stroke exhaust gases, how poisonous are they? Can anyone tell me what the long term effects of working with chainsaws and saw dust has on your lungs?

16th November 2011, 07:24 PM	#3
Garry Brockley Bayside Tree Care Brisbane Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Brisbane Aus Posts: 1,641	Re: 2 stroke exhaust gases So many times buried deep in some canopy or other running a chainsaw i have had to stop the saw climb out to fresh air and thought this cannot be good for me. i spoke to a good mate of mine today and he really hates these pollutants in chainsaws and it reminded me of this, i carry masks in the truck but i dont think even these would help, with the amount of times that as tree workers we get exposed to these carcinogens i wouldnt be surpised if the industry has a higher rate of bone and lung cancers. Stihl say in thier manual "Your power tool produces toxic exhaust fumes as soon as the engine is running. These gases may be colorless and odourless and may contain unburnt hydrocarbons and benzene." from what i have read the engines expell up to 30% of the fuel each time it fires. a very inefficient system! do the benzine levels in 2 stroke fuel count and if so... how many employers say in NSW of Victoria have registered the use of a Carcinogenic substance with work cover and informed thier staff of the potential dangers of breathing these in? how many law suits are we going to see in the future regarding these poisons. WorkCover Authority of New South Wales - Carcinogenic substances notification http://www.workcover.nsw.gov.au/form...ances_2215.pdf how many of us really pay any attention to the fact that we are at serious risk of future serious diseases that have the ability to kill or maim us? The EPA have been on to this problem for years. http://www.epa.gov/ncea/pdfs/benzenef.pdf so next time you have sticky sap on your hands or saw think before you use a lid full to clean it off and avoid breathing those fumes they will literally kill you. serial tree killer "Can anyone tell me what the long term effects of working with chainsaws and saw dust has on your lungs?" breathing dust can cause Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease - PubMed Health i lost my grand father to this from his time as a rock worker in north wales. __________________ My business:- Brisbane Bayside Tree Care Last edited by Garry Brockley; 16th November 2011 at 07:29 PM. Reason: link issues

17th November 2011, 09:35 PM	#6
George Valentine Former Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Australia - SA Adelaide Hills Posts: 185	Re: 2 stroke exhaust gases Yes, too much of anything is never good to no one and in circumstances where I'm using a "smoking" chainsaw for log periods of time such as my Chinese N90 Stihl imitation either cutting large timbers or milling with its GB 44" milling frame, and or any times where a chainsaw is used in confined spaces without much air through it, I use these masks 3M P2 N95 Face Masks Valved Respirator - Box of 10 - SUITABLE FOR SWINE FLU PROTECTION \| Esidirect. I also use the P1 and P2 valved masks for wood dust on some equipment I use in my shed. It doesn't filter 100% of the nasties but I feel a lot better (no headaches) using them particularly for the chainsaws and other 2 stroke equipment I use...! The thing is, the industry has a reputation of having tough people working on it, can you imagine most fellows, particularly the young ones to accept to use one of these masks while operation a chainsaw in public...??? no chance, unless it becomes a legal condition for chainsaw operations under their contract...! OK, not every time one needs a mask when operating a chainsaw, and I' yet to see a chainsaw operator, regardless of his competency, experience, age or certifications, even if he is coughing his lungs out chocked with 2 stroke smoke. This same company "esidirect" has great safety equipment, including working and climbing gloves not forgetting the very good cut resistant gloves series, with particular attention to the Cut Resistant Gloves - Ninja Silver Plus (P515) Cut Level 5 \| Esidirect that I use on my bandsaw and on many "tricky" chainsaw work. They have saved my hands from some potentially serious cuts, pretty much like chainsaw chaps, when damaged, never use them again, just replace them, economical choice, really...! Cheers George Last edited by George Valentine; 17th November 2011 at 11:42 PM.

19th November 2011, 09:39 AM	#7
KevinE Mature tree Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Adelaide SA Posts: 292	Re: 2 stroke exhaust gases This is something that has always worried me! I find that I do get headaches if using 2 strokes in confined spaces, but I'm sure the muffler mods we do on our saws don't help in that regard either. For me, the worst is when I'm stretching as far up as I can with the HT75 to get high branches - I seem to be sucking straight exhaust fumes! Next would be 2 stroke hedge trimmers, they all seem to have the exhaust right under your nose while you're "stroking" upwards to trim a shrub/hedge. In an effort to reduce my intake of 2 stroke exhaust fumes, I mostly use the combi tool hedge trimmer, as the engine sits behind me while I'm working. I also use a good electric hedge trimmer where I can. Top handled saws seem to blow the exhaust out sideways away from me & as long as I'm in an open space, I don't really notice any ill effects. I'm guessing that the risks are reduced at 50:1 over 25:1?

19th November 2011, 06:48 PM	#8
Glen Poulton Sappling Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Tara. Qld. Australia. Posts: 29	Re: 2 stroke exhaust gases In my limited experience cutting seasoned ironbark at ground level using both a Stihl MS290 and MS391 it would be doubtful I could get a constant run that adds up to 50% of the day, however I was noticing a heat difference between the two saws. I run the 290 with an Oregon bar and since changing the 391 from a Stihl bar to an Oregon bar it seems to be performing better with less heat. Less heat = less emissions.

21st November 2011, 08:24 AM	#9
Kenny Koala Sappling Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: in a tree Posts: 36	Re: 2 stroke exhaust gases 2 stroke 4 stroke doesn't matter. Taking in any exhaust fumes will be bad for your health Unleaded fuel burnt in anything that hasn't got a catalytic convertor isn't good either

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