Removing Codominants / How to get around this hazard?

mdvaden · 4th May 2007, 03:04 PM

The other topic that showed the big codominant leader sweet gum, reminded me of this sweet gum that split apart in our neighborhood, a couple of years ago ... see attachment...

So I was curious about what you folks do to remove them, and avoid the hazard of a potential split while climbing.

If both sides are just as weak, do you pick one?

Do you secure one half to the other to reinforce it?

All it took to drop that sweet gum, was the weight of the first good rain fall at the end of summmer.

Sean Freeman · 4th May 2007, 03:34 PM

If the particular situation was such that there was no other option to removal of one of the codom limbs (a situation I have not yet encountered, there always being other preferred options for me...reduction pruning on on or both limbs with or without a view to succession plantings) then I would pay great attention to the forces I was going to impart to the limb I'm on and the tree as a whole, might not be any good bracing the codom against itself if both could fail under loading. If there's other trees structures near enough to brace to then I'd prefer to set up a floating TIP between two of those-tyrolean style if the concerns about structural integrity were so great, having said that Steve doesn't have the gear for that set up so would probably price us out of the job. (This is of course based on the premise that EWP can't be set up etc...)
I haven't done work off a tyrolean yet but have set a couple up as rec climbs for fun (which they are!)

Removing a codom of any size has such a big impact (tree time) on the tree as a whole I'd be talking through the whys and wherefores with the client very clearly so they know what i believe would be the most sensible approach.

Tim Craig · 4th May 2007, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boa07

reduction pruning on one or both limbs

I use a method which I call sub-dominating.

Depending on potential targets if failure should occur, and the age, size and value of the tree I will crown reduce only one of the co-cominant stems every 5 years or so. It's always the same side.

This allows for new growth from the other side to slowly fill in the space which was formally filled with the branches of the reduced stem.

This done as part of an ongoing method which finally ends when the un pruned stem's new growth has completly replaced the original sub dominated stem.

I am currently sub-dominating about 13 mature co dominant trees Oak, Ash, Beech, Maple and Yew each in individual gardens for separate clients.

Its working very well.

I have also cabled many co dom trees.

If I am rigging them down and there is a bad included bark union which cause me concern, i will put 2 rigging blocks in each stem at the same height and run the lowering rope through both pulleys, this allows for better dissipation of the forces created when rigging dynamic loads. I will rig one stem off the other and vice versa.

If the Co dominant stem has a extensive decay at the union i will use a Mewp

mdvaden · 4th May 2007, 06:56 PM

By the way, to clarify... I'm referring to getting into position to cut and remove a codominant tree. A take-down of trees with a large and obvious weak union.

Streyken · 5th May 2007, 12:05 AM

I usually tie the stems together as high as reasonable and cinch tight. Removing the large outside limbs reduces a lot of weight quickly and I climb the inside. Of course there are many variables, but as a general answer I do the above. In situations like that I almost always climb as high as I can so I can hold the top - no large roping, no swinging around. This also assumes there is no other way (nearby tree, bucket, 20' orchard ladder and power pruner, etc.). Done a lot of topped hemlock and red alder that way, both are very susceptible to rot. Also slow and steady, bad things happen when one doesn't want to be up there and is in a hurry.

Ekka · 5th May 2007, 02:39 AM

Check out this co-dominant ironbark, near 100' tall was next door to the house I was working in.

Pics out of my mobile phone so that's why the quality sucks a bit.

So I went next door to let them know of the hazard, was a Hindu Temple, they'll have a meeting then decide.

TrevMcRev · 5th May 2007, 04:21 AM

Scroll down to my post in here:
V and U shaped Crotch Strengths, included bark| codominant stems etc

THis Spotted Gum was failing at a co-dominant. Stems were secrured to each other, then careful removal, low shockloading, light rigging.

Tim Craig · 5th May 2007, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdvaden

By the way, to clarify... I'm referring to getting into position to cut and remove a codominant tree. A take-down of trees with a large and obvious weak union.

Sorry Mdvaden,

I misunderstood

Ekka, am I on Tachy goes to Coventry?

If so then tell the Hindus re their co dom stem to Govinda jai ah jai ah

just kidding buddy.

am i on tachy goes to coventry???

Ekka · 5th May 2007, 03:35 PM

No you are not, what you write is seen by all

Tim Craig · 5th May 2007, 04:59 PM

Thanks Ekka, that's good to know.

On the subject of Hindus I feel it is very important that you are made aware of the significance of trees in some aspects and areas of Hinduism.

Co-dominance is a very interesting concept, not just for trees but for humans as well, it could be said that some humans have co-dominant personalities.

It has even been known in some very rare cases that humans can even exhibit tri-dominant and quad-dominant personalities.

Anyway back to Hinduism did you guys know that in some Hindu communities it is normal for a human being to marry a tree.

Now, you've all heard of tree-hugging right? this surely takes the concept to a whole new level. Don't believe me?

Check this out - http://www.vepachedu.org/treemarriages.html

What tree would you marry and why?

I'd marry a Pam

Tim Craig · 5th May 2007, 05:49 PM

Seriously Ekka,

That co-dominant stem in the photos is one of the worst I have seen in a long time, a real structural weakness, and the two stems are just gonna continue to push themselves apart, eventually leading to failure and tear out of one of the stems, leading to total removal of what is left.

If there is indeed a target(Hindu Temple) under that tree I hope you can convince them to remove it.

Goodluck

Tim Craig · 5th May 2007, 05:52 PM

The tree that is, not the Temple, although if they moved the Temple that would be a solution to the potential hazard caused by the structural weakness of the co-dominant stem.

Ekka · 5th May 2007, 06:46 PM

Well, the Hindu dudes are going to have a meeting.

They were at a future date going to flatten that whole area and build more so they might just accelerate their plans.

The man I spoke with was very nice and understood straight away, he had a white robe dress thing on and a yellow dot on his forehead ... I wasn't going to ask what that meant though. He lived in the house on site provided, head honcho or something.

Tim Craig · 6th May 2007, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

The man I spoke with was very nice and understood straight away, he had a white robe dress thing on and a yellow dot on his forehead ... I wasn't going to ask what that meant though.

The yellow dot is called a tilaka I think, It symbolises what branch of Hinduism your from, the yellow dot could be a symbol for a rising sun.

You should have asked him Ekka, he would've been happy to tell you.

Anyway back to the codominant tree - climb, crane or bucket truck for removal?

Ekka · 6th May 2007, 09:33 PM

Be an excavator and tub grinder job if they're building.

They'll just push that over ... sort of.

4th May 2007, 03:34 PM	#2 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,721	If the particular situation was such that there was no other option to removal of one of the codom limbs (a situation I have not yet encountered, there always being other preferred options for me...reduction pruning on on or both limbs with or without a view to succession plantings) then I would pay great attention to the forces I was going to impart to the limb I'm on and the tree as a whole, might not be any good bracing the codom against itself if both could fail under loading. If there's other trees structures near enough to brace to then I'd prefer to set up a floating TIP between two of those-tyrolean style if the concerns about structural integrity were so great, having said that Steve doesn't have the gear for that set up so would probably price us out of the job. (This is of course based on the premise that EWP can't be set up etc...) I haven't done work off a tyrolean yet but have set a couple up as rec climbs for fun (which they are!) Removing a codom of any size has such a big impact (tree time) on the tree as a whole I'd be talking through the whys and wherefores with the client very clearly so they know what i believe would be the most sensible approach. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

4th May 2007, 06:56 PM	#4 (permalink)
mdvaden Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 543	By the way, to clarify... I'm referring to getting into position to cut and remove a codominant tree. A take-down of trees with a large and obvious weak union. __________________ ____________________________________ Grove of Redwood TITANS Oregon BIGOOT trap Last edited by mdvaden : 4th May 2007 at 07:46 PM.

5th May 2007, 12:05 AM	#5 (permalink)
Streyken Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 205	I usually tie the stems together as high as reasonable and cinch tight. Removing the large outside limbs reduces a lot of weight quickly and I climb the inside. Of course there are many variables, but as a general answer I do the above. In situations like that I almost always climb as high as I can so I can hold the top - no large roping, no swinging around. This also assumes there is no other way (nearby tree, bucket, 20' orchard ladder and power pruner, etc.). Done a lot of topped hemlock and red alder that way, both are very susceptible to rot. Also slow and steady, bad things happen when one doesn't want to be up there and is in a hurry. __________________ Trimmin' bush and caring for flowers is good 'n' all... but sometimes ya gotta let the big wood fly and pound the garden.

5th May 2007, 04:21 AM	#7 (permalink)
TrevMcRev Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 760	Scroll down to my post in here: V and U shaped Crotch Strengths, included bark\| codominant stems etc THis Spotted Gum was failing at a co-dominant. Stems were secrured to each other, then careful removal, low shockloading, light rigging. __________________ Melbourne Arborist, Total Tree Care, Pruning, Tree and Stump Removal

5th May 2007, 03:35 PM	#9 (permalink)
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,547	No you are not, what you write is seen by all __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

5th May 2007, 04:59 PM	#10 (permalink)
Tim Craig Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 94	Thanks Ekka, that's good to know. On the subject of Hindus I feel it is very important that you are made aware of the significance of trees in some aspects and areas of Hinduism. Co-dominance is a very interesting concept, not just for trees but for humans as well, it could be said that some humans have co-dominant personalities. It has even been known in some very rare cases that humans can even exhibit tri-dominant and quad-dominant personalities. Anyway back to Hinduism did you guys know that in some Hindu communities it is normal for a human being to marry a tree. Now, you've all heard of tree-hugging right? this surely takes the concept to a whole new level. Don't believe me? Check this out - http://www.vepachedu.org/treemarriages.html What tree would you marry and why? I'd marry a Pam

5th May 2007, 05:49 PM	#11 (permalink)
Tim Craig Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 94	Seriously Ekka, That co-dominant stem in the photos is one of the worst I have seen in a long time, a real structural weakness, and the two stems are just gonna continue to push themselves apart, eventually leading to failure and tear out of one of the stems, leading to total removal of what is left. If there is indeed a target(Hindu Temple) under that tree I hope you can convince them to remove it. Goodluck

5th May 2007, 05:52 PM	#12 (permalink)
Tim Craig Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 94	The tree that is, not the Temple, although if they moved the Temple that would be a solution to the potential hazard caused by the structural weakness of the co-dominant stem.

5th May 2007, 06:46 PM	#13 (permalink)
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,547	Well, the Hindu dudes are going to have a meeting. They were at a future date going to flatten that whole area and build more so they might just accelerate their plans. The man I spoke with was very nice and understood straight away, he had a white robe dress thing on and a yellow dot on his forehead ... I wasn't going to ask what that meant though. He lived in the house on site provided, head honcho or something. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

6th May 2007, 09:33 PM	#15 (permalink)
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,547	Be an excavator and tub grinder job if they're building. They'll just push that over ... sort of. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors