lopping and wind loading

Sean Freeman · 6th March 2007, 10:38 PM

Don't ask me to explain why, I can't, there is no good reason for what you're about to see.
The point of posting these shots is to look at how ignorant cutting results in opening up the tree, or more accurately protions of the tree to wind loading forces that it has never experienced before. Branches and imbs that have always been within the upper canopy are now exposed to loading as if they were edge of canopy. The cellular structure within the barnches and limbs of these now exposed sections have none of the reaction wood laid down as they grew in response to wind loading since there was very little. As you'll see the very elogated form of the limbs typical of a very broad spreading decurrent canopy makes excellent lever arms

From the back side of the tree looks like not much wrong maybe a little sparse up top,
DSCF7910.JPG

But come the other side and all is revealed.....
DSCF7915.JPG

Have a closer look at those cuts....target pruning it aint

DSCF7913si.JPG

So we now have a gutter or row cut tree, but I see no power lines, nice funnel for wind though
DSCF7915si.JPG

And just look at the elongated limbs looking like crazy lions tails ripe for the breaking

DSCF7916si.JPG

Don't know which of our legend tree crews up here did the work, could be any of about six. Bet they're proud of their days work

For the rest of us maybe such crap work can be used to remind us of the need to take into account what changes any proper pruning or removals might have on the tree(s) that remain.

SF

TrevMcRev · 6th March 2007, 11:08 PM

Definately some shoddy "pruning" there

The stupid thing is, the ignoramis' that did it probly think its a great job.

What sheets me most though, is when quoting to deal with a tree like this properly, my spec and their spec might look similar on paper, except for the $$$. Then you drive past the job u didnt get and see it done like that. Trouble too is often as the customer knows little/nothing about Arb. they might think it was a great job too.

Takes some good effort/salesmanship/education to help clients see AND understand the benefits of doing it right, as well as understand what would be wrong and why.

Just the other day i quoted some Weight Reduction Pruning on a big mature Coastal Banksia (Banksia integrifolia). It was in a tight courtyard, not much room, and a bit of work in it. After extensively explaining whats involved and writing such details on the quote, i priced it at $1350+gst. She said she had another quote much cheaper. I saw it on the kitchen table as i walked back through the house. It read "Prune Tree - $380+gst"

I'll be keeping an eye on this one!

Ekka · 6th March 2007, 11:12 PM

I don't get it.

Why did the tree need that in the first place?

It's an Albizia right?

And you'd not want to do such large cuts and leave such stubs, why not some reduction on the limbs that were cut off.

The only thing I can think of for that work was so the plants below get more sun and rain ... that's all I can see.

And from a pruning dosage point of view on a mature tree what % of the canopy has been cut off? 30% to 40%?

Trees like that you would dead wood, maybe remove or shorten any "suss branches" but mainly leave the bloody thing alone!

TrevMcRev · 6th March 2007, 11:16 PM

Just having another look at pics. Is this tree on private or public land?

Hey whats wrong with the cuts, the water will run of em real good

Ekka · 6th March 2007, 11:31 PM

About 3 to 4 years ago a lady in 8 Mile plains asked me for a quote to lop the top off here large ironbark. It was maybe a 80' in tight yard, effecting 2 homes.

So back then no camera or before shots. I spent ages with her, showed her diagrams and wording about topping etc and left a quote for removal and thinning.

Few months later drove by and it was just like a massive cactus, no foliage at all and they whacked thru the 3 big main leaders exactly where she wanted it done.

These pics were taken 1 year ago, so there's around 2 to 3 years of regrowth in these shots.

This is where this industry is hopeless, no cohesion, no singing off the same hymn sheet.

Now when these branches get bigger and if they fail and smash the roof what's the bet they'll just claim it on insurance ... but heck, those treeloppers were so good and they did exactly what we required unlike that Arborist guy who just debated.

Sean Freeman · 7th March 2007, 12:02 AM

Yes Ekka Albizia saman, and Trev its on public land, I'm pretty sure the council crew didn't do it (but they might of). When Steve gets to quote for jobs we still go through the whole process with the client that I know you guys know all too well

explaining lopping and pruning, epicormic regrowth on stubs etc... Now we just went out this afternoon to a School where i've been envolved for 17yrs same scenario as above reduce impact of leaves, fruit and deadwood from mango. But I will accompany the qoutes we provide them with a one pager putting in strong terms what lopping is and why its nuts for them to waste their capital on such damaging practices.
Now the outcome will doubtless be that the unwashed get to do the removals and we get the pruning/reductions.

This lionks to another thread we've all been contributing to re educating the client. One day I'll have all the visual aids printed out to give them re lopping epicormics the long spiral to death for lopped trees, and importantly medium sized natives that fit their requirements...flowers foliage etc...one day.

SF

Mike Poor · 7th March 2007, 05:49 PM

The only 2 possible excuses i could think of when i saw the photo was that the limbs broke off in storms or had died back. But even if they had no knowledgeable arborist would leave those nasty stubs! A self proclaimed arborist in my area underbids me on many jobs, but when you drive by, you see he just takes off a few big limbs (whichever ones he can just drop easily without roping) and calls the tree pruned! He leaves the limbs over the house, the codominates, the deadwood, etc. It makes you sick to hear "well his bid was so much lower." I say "there's a reason for that."

Ekka · 7th March 2007, 05:52 PM

Mike, how do you deal with that or do you just let it go or what?

Mike Poor · 7th March 2007, 06:05 PM

Good question Ekka! Sometimes I take the time to explain telling them what the tree is going to look like in 2yrs or 5 years etc. Other times i'm so ticked i have to leave before i say something nasty! (Ha,Ha!) Sometimes the tree owmer will actually call back in 2 yrs and tell me i guessed right! (We all love it when this happens right?!!

Juno · 9th March 2007, 08:25 AM

No I don't. I rather had seen the tree is Okay. How about you

Now it's over and the tree can't get that old anymore.
We see it often in Holland. And when they ask me our another prof,
they can't believe there ears when we tell them it's wrong

So I rather do it myself then I now for sure it's done right. Right?:

TrevMcRev · 9th March 2007, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boa07

One day I'll have all the visual aids printed out to give them re lopping epicormics the long spiral to death for lopped trees, and importantly medium sized natives that fit their requirements...flowers foliage etc...one day.

SF

Heres what i hand out to prospects that cant quickly get their head around the idea, or when you get the feelin youll be quoting against loppers. Just a personalised, slightly modified version of whats on the ISA website. Feel free to alter to suit and use yourself.

One day.... i'll do a nice glossy color photo brouchure type one....One day...

Ekka · 9th March 2007, 03:49 PM

I think the ISAAC has some leaflets you can just put ya stamp on the back and hand it to them, cheap, worth checking.

No point reinventing the wheel, artwork, printing etc if it's already there for nicks.

Sean Freeman · 9th March 2007, 06:08 PM

Your info sheets are good Trev, when I did get something together a couple of years ago tried to condense it to one page.

Lopping explained.doc

Again if anyone can make use of it please do.

SF

Ekka · 9th March 2007, 06:55 PM

Does everyone have a good share of that info on their website? It'd be a good place to start also and maybe the word will spread to the guys doing these malpractices.

6th March 2007, 10:38 PM	#1 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	lopping and wind loading Don't ask me to explain why, I can't, there is no good reason for what you're about to see. The point of posting these shots is to look at how ignorant cutting results in opening up the tree, or more accurately protions of the tree to wind loading forces that it has never experienced before. Branches and imbs that have always been within the upper canopy are now exposed to loading as if they were edge of canopy. The cellular structure within the barnches and limbs of these now exposed sections have none of the reaction wood laid down as they grew in response to wind loading since there was very little. As you'll see the very elogated form of the limbs typical of a very broad spreading decurrent canopy makes excellent lever arms From the back side of the tree looks like not much wrong maybe a little sparse up top, DSCF7910.JPG But come the other side and all is revealed..... DSCF7915.JPG Have a closer look at those cuts....target pruning it aint DSCF7913si.JPG So we now have a gutter or row cut tree, but I see no power lines, nice funnel for wind though DSCF7915si.JPG And just look at the elongated limbs looking like crazy lions tails ripe for the breaking DSCF7916si.JPG Don't know which of our legend tree crews up here did the work, could be any of about six. Bet they're proud of their days work For the rest of us maybe such crap work can be used to remind us of the need to take into account what changes any proper pruning or removals might have on the tree(s) that remain. SF

6th March 2007, 11:08 PM	#2 (permalink)
TrevMcRev Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 734	Definately some shoddy "pruning" there The stupid thing is, the ignoramis' that did it probly think its a great job. What sheets me most though, is when quoting to deal with a tree like this properly, my spec and their spec might look similar on paper, except for the $$$. Then you drive past the job u didnt get and see it done like that. Trouble too is often as the customer knows little/nothing about Arb. they might think it was a great job too. Takes some good effort/salesmanship/education to help clients see AND understand the benefits of doing it right, as well as understand what would be wrong and why. Just the other day i quoted some Weight Reduction Pruning on a big mature Coastal Banksia (Banksia integrifolia). It was in a tight courtyard, not much room, and a bit of work in it. After extensively explaining whats involved and writing such details on the quote, i priced it at $1350+gst. She said she had another quote much cheaper. I saw it on the kitchen table as i walked back through the house. It read "Prune Tree - $380+gst" I'll be keeping an eye on this one! __________________ Melbourne Arborist, Total Tree Care, Pruning, Tree and Stump Removal

6th March 2007, 11:12 PM	#3 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	I don't get it. Why did the tree need that in the first place? It's an Albizia right? And you'd not want to do such large cuts and leave such stubs, why not some reduction on the limbs that were cut off. The only thing I can think of for that work was so the plants below get more sun and rain ... that's all I can see. And from a pruning dosage point of view on a mature tree what % of the canopy has been cut off? 30% to 40%? Trees like that you would dead wood, maybe remove or shorten any "suss branches" but mainly leave the bloody thing alone! __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

6th March 2007, 11:16 PM	#4 (permalink)
TrevMcRev Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 734	Just having another look at pics. Is this tree on private or public land? Hey whats wrong with the cuts, the water will run of em real good __________________ Melbourne Arborist, Total Tree Care, Pruning, Tree and Stump Removal

7th March 2007, 05:52 PM	#8 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Mike, how do you deal with that or do you just let it go or what? __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

7th March 2007, 12:02 AM	#6 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Yes Ekka Albizia saman, and Trev its on public land, I'm pretty sure the council crew didn't do it (but they might of). When Steve gets to quote for jobs we still go through the whole process with the client that I know you guys know all too well explaining lopping and pruning, epicormic regrowth on stubs etc... Now we just went out this afternoon to a School where i've been envolved for 17yrs same scenario as above reduce impact of leaves, fruit and deadwood from mango. But I will accompany the qoutes we provide them with a one pager putting in strong terms what lopping is and why its nuts for them to waste their capital on such damaging practices. Now the outcome will doubtless be that the unwashed get to do the removals and we get the pruning/reductions. This lionks to another thread we've all been contributing to re educating the client. One day I'll have all the visual aids printed out to give them re lopping epicormics the long spiral to death for lopped trees, and importantly medium sized natives that fit their requirements...flowers foliage etc...one day. SF

7th March 2007, 05:49 PM	#7 (permalink)
Mike Poor Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Urbana, IL,usa Posts: 76	The only 2 possible excuses i could think of when i saw the photo was that the limbs broke off in storms or had died back. But even if they had no knowledgeable arborist would leave those nasty stubs! A self proclaimed arborist in my area underbids me on many jobs, but when you drive by, you see he just takes off a few big limbs (whichever ones he can just drop easily without roping) and calls the tree pruned! He leaves the limbs over the house, the codominates, the deadwood, etc. It makes you sick to hear "well his bid was so much lower." I say "there's a reason for that."

7th March 2007, 06:05 PM	#9 (permalink)
Mike Poor Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Urbana, IL,usa Posts: 76	Good question Ekka! Sometimes I take the time to explain telling them what the tree is going to look like in 2yrs or 5 years etc. Other times i'm so ticked i have to leave before i say something nasty! (Ha,Ha!) Sometimes the tree owmer will actually call back in 2 yrs and tell me i guessed right! (We all love it when this happens right?!!

9th March 2007, 08:25 AM	#10 (permalink)
Juno Sappling Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 29	No I don't. I rather had seen the tree is Okay. How about you Now it's over and the tree can't get that old anymore. We see it often in Holland. And when they ask me our another prof, they can't believe there ears when we tell them it's wrong So I rather do it myself then I now for sure it's done right. Right?:

9th March 2007, 03:49 PM	#12 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	I think the ISAAC has some leaflets you can just put ya stamp on the back and hand it to them, cheap, worth checking. No point reinventing the wheel, artwork, printing etc if it's already there for nicks. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

9th March 2007, 06:08 PM	#13 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Your info sheets are good Trev, when I did get something together a couple of years ago tried to condense it to one page. Lopping explained.doc Again if anyone can make use of it please do. SF

9th March 2007, 06:55 PM	#14 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Does everyone have a good share of that info on their website? It'd be a good place to start also and maybe the word will spread to the guys doing these malpractices. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

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