longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers| CODIT WALL4

bigshea13 · 2nd January 2008, 11:27 AM

has anyone ever tried leaving smaller stubs instead of correct collar cuts on trees that are known to be poor compatmentalizers and then returning after the tree has had a chance to compartmentalize and putting the correct cut on it. it seems to me that when a tree builds up it boundary to infections it almost callises over and if you can get the portion you need a collar cut on to toughen up first maybe you can help the tree fend off infection easier. if someone has done this and checked up on it how long do you wait and how do you judge if its ready?
this would be useful when trying to structurally prune and there are two dominate leaders. when you remove the one your left with the other just off center of the tree and if it comparts. poorly you may end up losing top over the years.

newguy18 · 3rd January 2008, 05:03 PM

never done that but I think you might be on to something.

bigshea13 · 3rd January 2008, 05:15 PM

I Was Hoping Someone Had Feedback. Ill Just Have To Try It And Pay Attention.. The Only Prob Is That It May Take Many Months Before I Know Out Come.....maybe Years.

newguy18 · 3rd January 2008, 05:20 PM

i nkow but thats also how people like shigo found out proper treecare that we have today though years of t and e.

azrael · 3rd January 2008, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshea13

...has anyone ever tried leaving smaller stubs instead of correct collar cuts on trees that are known to be poor compatmentalizers... .

I dont tree-work as such, but this is certainly the recommended pruning method for our native Fig Trees (Moreton Bay Fig, Port Jackson Fig, Small-Leaf Fig, and Deciduous Fig), which are as you suggest ... poor compartmentalisers...and that is the pruning prescription I would give.
I'll try to get some photos over the weekend.

Sean Freeman · 3rd January 2008, 06:10 PM

It can be a tricky one this since many of us have spent very long periods lambsting those that leave 'permenant' long stubs as loppers, this practice of trying to stage the reduction/removal of a particular limb can often be used as evidence of our 'double standards', sure based on a lack of understanding the actual work and from those not owning the tree, with whom we have discussed this process at length....but it can still cause problems for you through deliberate misrepresentation of what you're trying to achieve.

Yes Stephen has done it in the past and yes we have encountered the very problems I refer to...do I think it was worth it...yes, and when reducing/removing very large limbs on older trees if the time frame permits then I would advise the same practice again. Our mini trial was with an Albizia saman, limb >600mm reduced four times over 18 months.

bigshea13 · 3rd January 2008, 06:37 PM

Why 4 Times? How Much Each Time? How Long Between? What Were The Results?

Ekka · 3rd January 2008, 07:59 PM

The problem is the re-visits, how to control that?

What if the client moves? What if they get another person etc?

This thread goes for a while, with some points about exactly this topic. Have a read.

Pruning cuts - collar, collarless and co-dominant

Sean Freeman · 3rd January 2008, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Why 4 Times? How Much Each Time? How Long Between? What Were The Results?

The tree was in a school yard so client wasn't going anywhere...4 times because thats the way it worked out, first two cuts were to natural unions further in along the limb, last two were judged by me to be the best compromise location relative to the length of the limb left hanging out there, timing was really driven by the school yearly timetable (always when school hols on) and by the status of the epicormics, cut more off after the epi8cormics that were produced had clearly failed.
Results....well to be honest no different visibly than if we had removed the entire limb in one since there was no control to judge it against...mind you the final cut had not shot epicormics the last time I saw it.

I think if you have a very big limb that has to be reduced/removed and you have the ability to gradually reduce it rather than remove it intirely in one go then I would favour staged reductions...do I have scientific evidence to support my feeling...no.

bigshea13 · 4th January 2008, 06:48 AM

do you think its possible to drill and fill? for the purpose of observationand to decide if the copart. process has advanced enough to finalize cut.[MAYBE WITH EXTREMELY SMAL DIAMETER DRILL. OR MAYBE SOMETHING YOU CAN TRY PENETRATING FACE OF CUT WITH LIKE AN AIR PUNCH . THEN MAYBE YOU COULD COMPARE TISSUE COMPACTION SAMPLES FROM NEW CUT TO OLD CUTS TO DETERMINE WHEN ITS READY TO CUT AGAIN.

arborcraft · 4th January 2008, 08:29 PM

Interesting question, and interesting comments from Sean.
Hey, Azrael, I wouldn't have regarded Figs as poor compartmentalisers?

azrael · 4th January 2008, 08:36 PM

Fig Tree pruning photos as promised...There are two sets .This first post will be for a young Port Jackson Fig Tree, where very minor pruning has been done...there is no wound over ~6cm...compare leaf size for scale.
Standard cuts seem to be appropriate for young vigorous trees....and wounds appear clean (pruning about 3yo).

newguy18 · 4th January 2008, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Freeman

The tree was in a school yard so client wasn't going anywhere...4 times because thats the way it worked out, first two cuts were to natural unions further in along the limb, last two were judged by me to be the best compromise location relative to the length of the limb left hanging out there, timing was really driven by the school yearly timetable (always when school hols on) and by the status of the epicormics, cut more off after the epi8cormics that were produced had clearly failed.
Results....well to be honest no different visibly than if we had removed the entire limb in one since there was no control to judge it against...mind you the final cut had not shot epicormics the last time I saw it.

I think if you have a very big limb that has to be reduced/removed and you have the ability to gradually reduce it rather than remove it intirely in one go then I would favour staged reductions...do I have scientific evidence to support my feeling...no.

i understand what your saying about the one trip equals one big wound that the tree has to heal at one time but because the foliage is what feeds the tree unless a callus actually did develop then how could a stage removal of a large limb be of any benefit?I'm not criticizing I'm just asking.

azrael · 4th January 2008, 08:46 PM

Second set of images : Old, remnant trees, ...pruning date unknown...but this subdivision is ~11 years old and these were previously unkempt paddock trees.
Standard pruning cuts ...... make up your own mind how well the wounds have compartmentalised, and how effective pruning has been at removing decayed tissue.
I haven't been past the (different) Fig Tree with longer stubs to get that photo yet.

newguy18 · 4th January 2008, 09:10 PM

they all apear to be doing well but the last one was it left long on purpose?

2nd January 2008, 11:27 AM	#1 (permalink)
bigshea13 Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: hiding Posts: 378	longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers\| CODIT WALL4 has anyone ever tried leaving smaller stubs instead of correct collar cuts on trees that are known to be poor compatmentalizers and then returning after the tree has had a chance to compartmentalize and putting the correct cut on it. it seems to me that when a tree builds up it boundary to infections it almost callises over and if you can get the portion you need a collar cut on to toughen up first maybe you can help the tree fend off infection easier. if someone has done this and checked up on it how long do you wait and how do you judge if its ready? this would be useful when trying to structurally prune and there are two dominate leaders. when you remove the one your left with the other just off center of the tree and if it comparts. poorly you may end up losing top over the years.

3rd January 2008, 05:03 PM	#2 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,677	Re: longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers never done that but I think you might be on to something. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

3rd January 2008, 05:15 PM	#3 (permalink)
bigshea13 Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: hiding Posts: 378	Re: longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers I Was Hoping Someone Had Feedback. Ill Just Have To Try It And Pay Attention.. The Only Prob Is That It May Take Many Months Before I Know Out Come.....maybe Years.

3rd January 2008, 05:20 PM	#4 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,677	Re: longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers i nkow but thats also how people like shigo found out proper treecare that we have today though years of t and e. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

3rd January 2008, 06:10 PM	#6 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Re: longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers It can be a tricky one this since many of us have spent very long periods lambsting those that leave 'permenant' long stubs as loppers, this practice of trying to stage the reduction/removal of a particular limb can often be used as evidence of our 'double standards', sure based on a lack of understanding the actual work and from those not owning the tree, with whom we have discussed this process at length....but it can still cause problems for you through deliberate misrepresentation of what you're trying to achieve. Yes Stephen has done it in the past and yes we have encountered the very problems I refer to...do I think it was worth it...yes, and when reducing/removing very large limbs on older trees if the time frame permits then I would advise the same practice again. Our mini trial was with an Albizia saman, limb >600mm reduced four times over 18 months. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

3rd January 2008, 06:37 PM	#7 (permalink)
bigshea13 Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: hiding Posts: 378	Re: longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers Why 4 Times? How Much Each Time? How Long Between? What Were The Results?

3rd January 2008, 07:59 PM	#8 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,916	Re: longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers The problem is the re-visits, how to control that? What if the client moves? What if they get another person etc? This thread goes for a while, with some points about exactly this topic. Have a read. Pruning cuts - collar, collarless and co-dominant __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

4th January 2008, 06:48 AM	#10 (permalink)
bigshea13 Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: hiding Posts: 378	Re: longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers do you think its possible to drill and fill? for the purpose of observationand to decide if the copart. process has advanced enough to finalize cut.[MAYBE WITH EXTREMELY SMAL DIAMETER DRILL. OR MAYBE SOMETHING YOU CAN TRY PENETRATING FACE OF CUT WITH LIKE AN AIR PUNCH . THEN MAYBE YOU COULD COMPARE TISSUE COMPACTION SAMPLES FROM NEW CUT TO OLD CUTS TO DETERMINE WHEN ITS READY TO CUT AGAIN.

4th January 2008, 08:29 PM	#11 (permalink)
arborcraft Sappling Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 18	Re: longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers Interesting question, and interesting comments from Sean. Hey, Azrael, I wouldn't have regarded Figs as poor compartmentalisers?

4th January 2008, 09:10 PM	#15 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,677	Re: longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers they all apear to be doing well but the last one was it left long on purpose? __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related