Double Stacked Cocos Palm

Jeff Darby · 26th April 2008, 09:52 PM

Hi Folks,
Here is an interesting Palm, Syagrus romanzoffiana, This one presents with adventitious roots.

This palm tree is a(CLASS) Angiosperma>Flowering plant> (SUBCLASS)monocot, It is only capable of primary growth,It grows from the shoot tips and root tips, The round dark scars on the trunk are leaf scars and the diameter of the trunk is directly related to the amount of water it recieves during the season.

Eric Frei · 27th April 2008, 11:23 AM

Sean Freeman · 27th April 2008, 03:09 PM

Great pic Eric, in trees when we see aerial adventitious roots emerging from the bark its a good bet that serious dysfunction is happening between the roots and the canopy..hence the attempt to reestablish a connection...assuming the same is true here..ie the section shown red arrow is not providing suffucient flow either up or down.

Double Stacked Cocos Palm-pumpedupalright-1.jpg

Suspect in the case of palms by pools often due to lack of any realistic environment/space for the roots, or completely impoverished soils.

Eric Frei · 27th April 2008, 03:16 PM

It's weird, very weird.

I read somewhere that in some places with certain palms what they do to transplant is just cut the bloody thing off and shove it in a hole and it grows new roots.

Another method was the artificially induce (like our pics) a new root system above ground by wiring peat moss etc to the trunk and wetting it continually. This brings a new roots system and then they cut the palm off just below and bury it in a hole ... wella, transplanted palm.

Now don't hold it to me what palms and where and the survival rate. Just saying what I've read however there's no real hard core facts on it.

One of my neighbors once built a 2m high retaining wall and buried the trunk of a cocos that deep. Bloody thing flourished and love it.

When we cut it down and ground it it had a new root system to grind. But that's all I can say, for the real evidence we would have to excavate the whole trunk out and see what happened.

There was no decay up the main stem either.

Jeff Darby · 27th April 2008, 03:49 PM

I have heard of this aswell,A bloke at Forster has cocos trunks cut into about 1200mm lenghts planted in between cabins.The scuttle bug I heard was he hoping that they would grow..LOL.You goto have hope in your life.

Eric Frei · 27th April 2008, 05:10 PM

What!?

He just planted sections of log?

LOL, that'll never grow, next time you see him and they're dead just ask him if he fertilized them. No matter the answer yes/no just go the other way and say I heard that doing that doesn't work.

Jeff Darby · 27th April 2008, 06:16 PM

Yes that's what he done!

Next time I'm in the area I'll get pictures..LOL.

newguy18 · 28th April 2008, 11:46 PM

Thats funny,he planted logs and hopes they will grow.

Quantum Leaf · 1st May 2008, 10:03 PM

This is a question I have had hanging around for some years, and your photos have prompted it yet again.
I have attached some photos of a Cocus palm I found some years ago. I sent them off to a number of palm societies and specialist nurseries in Aust and the US, yet no one could offer a reason. I settled on the phenomena of palm 'bottleneck' or 'increment variation', which is the stem diameter variation due to climatic or cultural practises. Pretty extreme though, and having experienced this in other specimens like the 3rd photo, it just dosn't quite gel. This 3rd photo, is the typical example of palms that have been kept in a pot within the nursery and then planted out. Notice how the taper changes consistently on all the palms, being the time of planting (I can confirm this, because I recall when these were planted). It is also a typical symptom of drought, etc.
Having spoken to the owner of the palm with the extreme stem change, the background fits with the 'bottleneck' theory. That is, the time of the extreme stem diameter change occured when they purchased the property and started watering and fertilising on a regular basis.
I am interested in what Sean Freeman had to say about a dysfunction between the roots and crown, and whether he has any further material, studies, resources on this aspect.

Sean Freeman · 2nd May 2008, 12:31 AM

I was really just thinking aloud, and grossly simplifying the situation in the process....there is not much agreement on what causes adventitious root growth even after all this time and a great many well funded research and PhD projects!!!

There is a reasonable amount of sound material out here on the net, that can provide you with a working understanding of the various factors that it is agreed can be (and in specific cases are) critical in the emergence and growth of adventitious roots.

Like almost all aspects of growth in plants, palms or trees, it is driven monitored and managed through hormonal (chemical) checks and balances. Loss of connecivity between the existing roots and the canopy directly impacts on the status of the chemical growth control in place within the plant..I quess thats what I was getting at.

Eric Frei · 2nd May 2008, 10:20 AM

I have a good theory.

It's common knowledge that stem diameters change according to the boom or bust conditions.

Many palms here through the last 3 years of drought have tapered their stems down a lot beside not exhibiting the same longitudinal growth.

The common denominator with the palms that have grown adventitious roots is.

1/ Rapid, distinct and pronounced stem dia growth

2/ An underside to that growth not a gradual taper

We know that we can induce roots along the stem of a palm but how about this. That step now becomes a moist area as water goes down the trunk.

In addition we all know palms have no rays and are basically tubes running up and down. This means that the water getting sucked up from the ground is no problem however the diffusion of the additional sugars from photosynthesis going down the palm become bottlenecked like sand in an hour glass at the stem diameter change.

That would then perhaps cause a "storage and saturation" of sugars in the stem where conditions are most favourable for adventitious root growth.

I have attached a diagram showing these factors at play. Blue is water going up and green is sugars going down.

Now where do I collect my PhD?

Quantum Leaf · 2nd May 2008, 04:57 PM

Good thinking Ekka, and most plausable. I have never noticed this in any other palm species other than Cocus, and the fast growth rate of this species would support the theory. Has any one else seen this trait in any other species?

simo77 · 5th May 2008, 06:57 PM

Check this Phoenix palm out

Quantum Leaf · 5th May 2008, 07:32 PM

I'm assuming thats mechanical damage. Either way, the supporting ability of palm fibre extraordinary. (regarding the attached photos) Ive been waiting to see this one fail for years (I could be in for a wait) The diameter at the base is 300mm. A result of an over zealous lawn contractor.

Eric Frei · 6th May 2008, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simo77

Check this Phoenix palm out

Hey Simo ...

That ones scarfed up ready to go.

Quantum, that's a disaster waiting to happen, high target value with parking!

newguy18 · 6th May 2008, 01:27 PM

But Ekka treeseer can save them.

simo77 · 6th May 2008, 06:12 PM

That palm is in a horse yard and was nibbled on near 30 years ago by a horse,it just keeps on standing.Here is a close up pic

TreeDimensional · 7th May 2008, 04:27 PM

Well, one thing is for sure, the tree out-lived the horse!

Eric Frei · 7th May 2008, 09:35 PM

Never thought the horse would gnaw a palm, especially that type.

Sean Freeman · 17th May 2008, 11:05 AM

Two shots of Bangalow palms Archontophoenix cunninghamiana up at Mnt Tamborine showing the same adventitious development noted by others earlier, also the second had clearly been struck by fallen timber and the roots emerging from the sides of that damage, a clear lip evident for that one too, where flow of rain water would increase the moisture levels.

Eric Frei · 17th May 2008, 11:51 AM

You prowling around the dark up there mate?

26th April 2008, 09:52 PM	#1
Jeff Darby Moderator - Previously known as JayD Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: TreeWorld, Sydney Australia Posts: 2,031	Double Stacked Cocos Palm Hi Folks, Here is an interesting Palm, Syagrus romanzoffiana, This one presents with adventitious roots. This palm tree is a(CLASS) Angiosperma>Flowering plant> (SUBCLASS)monocot, It is only capable of primary growth,It grows from the shoot tips and root tips, The round dark scars on the trunk are leaf scars and the diameter of the trunk is directly related to the amount of water it recieves during the season. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Member: Australian Tree Association Join the Australian Tree Association...Have your voice heard ! Arboriculture, A life long study for some, a passing phase for others © Jeffrey J Darby 2011

27th April 2008, 11:23 AM	#2
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,820	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm Attached Thumbnails __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

27th April 2008, 03:09 PM	#3
Sean Freeman Monument Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,985	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm Great pic Eric, in trees when we see aerial adventitious roots emerging from the bark its a good bet that serious dysfunction is happening between the roots and the canopy..hence the attempt to reestablish a connection...assuming the same is true here..ie the section shown red arrow is not providing suffucient flow either up or down. Suspect in the case of palms by pools often due to lack of any realistic environment/space for the roots, or completely impoverished soils.

27th April 2008, 03:16 PM	#4
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,820	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm It's weird, very weird. I read somewhere that in some places with certain palms what they do to transplant is just cut the bloody thing off and shove it in a hole and it grows new roots. Another method was the artificially induce (like our pics) a new root system above ground by wiring peat moss etc to the trunk and wetting it continually. This brings a new roots system and then they cut the palm off just below and bury it in a hole ... wella, transplanted palm. Now don't hold it to me what palms and where and the survival rate. Just saying what I've read however there's no real hard core facts on it. One of my neighbors once built a 2m high retaining wall and buried the trunk of a cocos that deep. Bloody thing flourished and love it. When we cut it down and ground it it had a new root system to grind. But that's all I can say, for the real evidence we would have to excavate the whole trunk out and see what happened. There was no decay up the main stem either. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

27th April 2008, 03:49 PM	#5
Jeff Darby Moderator - Previously known as JayD Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: TreeWorld, Sydney Australia Posts: 2,031	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm I have heard of this aswell,A bloke at Forster has cocos trunks cut into about 1200mm lenghts planted in between cabins.The scuttle bug I heard was he hoping that they would grow..LOL.You goto have hope in your life. __________________ Member: Australian Tree Association Join the Australian Tree Association...Have your voice heard ! Arboriculture, A life long study for some, a passing phase for others © Jeffrey J Darby 2011

27th April 2008, 05:10 PM	#6
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,820	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm What!? He just planted sections of log? LOL, that'll never grow, next time you see him and they're dead just ask him if he fertilized them. No matter the answer yes/no just go the other way and say I heard that doing that doesn't work. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

27th April 2008, 06:16 PM	#7
Jeff Darby Moderator - Previously known as JayD Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: TreeWorld, Sydney Australia Posts: 2,031	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm Yes that's what he done! Next time I'm in the area I'll get pictures..LOL. __________________ Member: Australian Tree Association Join the Australian Tree Association...Have your voice heard ! Arboriculture, A life long study for some, a passing phase for others © Jeffrey J Darby 2011

28th April 2008, 11:46 PM	#8
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: orlando,fl Posts: 4,977	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm Thats funny,he planted logs and hopes they will grow. __________________ Have your say join us today. old schooler

1st May 2008, 10:03 PM	#9
Quantum Leaf Sappling Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Illawarra, NSW Posts: 13	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm This is a question I have had hanging around for some years, and your photos have prompted it yet again. I have attached some photos of a Cocus palm I found some years ago. I sent them off to a number of palm societies and specialist nurseries in Aust and the US, yet no one could offer a reason. I settled on the phenomena of palm 'bottleneck' or 'increment variation', which is the stem diameter variation due to climatic or cultural practises. Pretty extreme though, and having experienced this in other specimens like the 3rd photo, it just dosn't quite gel. This 3rd photo, is the typical example of palms that have been kept in a pot within the nursery and then planted out. Notice how the taper changes consistently on all the palms, being the time of planting (I can confirm this, because I recall when these were planted). It is also a typical symptom of drought, etc. Having spoken to the owner of the palm with the extreme stem change, the background fits with the 'bottleneck' theory. That is, the time of the extreme stem diameter change occured when they purchased the property and started watering and fertilising on a regular basis. I am interested in what Sean Freeman had to say about a dysfunction between the roots and crown, and whether he has any further material, studies, resources on this aspect. Attached Thumbnails

2nd May 2008, 12:31 AM	#10
Sean Freeman Monument Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,985	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm I was really just thinking aloud, and grossly simplifying the situation in the process....there is not much agreement on what causes adventitious root growth even after all this time and a great many well funded research and PhD projects!!! There is a reasonable amount of sound material out here on the net, that can provide you with a working understanding of the various factors that it is agreed can be (and in specific cases are) critical in the emergence and growth of adventitious roots. Like almost all aspects of growth in plants, palms or trees, it is driven monitored and managed through hormonal (chemical) checks and balances. Loss of connecivity between the existing roots and the canopy directly impacts on the status of the chemical growth control in place within the plant..I quess thats what I was getting at.

2nd May 2008, 10:20 AM	#11
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,820	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm I have a good theory. It's common knowledge that stem diameters change according to the boom or bust conditions. Many palms here through the last 3 years of drought have tapered their stems down a lot beside not exhibiting the same longitudinal growth. The common denominator with the palms that have grown adventitious roots is. 1/ Rapid, distinct and pronounced stem dia growth 2/ An underside to that growth not a gradual taper We know that we can induce roots along the stem of a palm but how about this. That step now becomes a moist area as water goes down the trunk. In addition we all know palms have no rays and are basically tubes running up and down. This means that the water getting sucked up from the ground is no problem however the diffusion of the additional sugars from photosynthesis going down the palm become bottlenecked like sand in an hour glass at the stem diameter change. That would then perhaps cause a "storage and saturation" of sugars in the stem where conditions are most favourable for adventitious root growth. I have attached a diagram showing these factors at play. Blue is water going up and green is sugars going down. Now where do I collect my PhD? Attached Thumbnails __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

2nd May 2008, 04:57 PM	#12
Quantum Leaf Sappling Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Illawarra, NSW Posts: 13	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm Good thinking Ekka, and most plausable. I have never noticed this in any other palm species other than Cocus, and the fast growth rate of this species would support the theory. Has any one else seen this trait in any other species?

5th May 2008, 06:57 PM	#13
simo77 Sappling Join Date: May 2008 Location: sydney australia Posts: 7	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm Check this Phoenix palm out Attached Thumbnails

5th May 2008, 07:32 PM	#14
Quantum Leaf Sappling Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Illawarra, NSW Posts: 13	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm I'm assuming thats mechanical damage. Either way, the supporting ability of palm fibre extraordinary. (regarding the attached photos) Ive been waiting to see this one fail for years (I could be in for a wait) The diameter at the base is 300mm. A result of an over zealous lawn contractor. Attached Thumbnails

6th May 2008, 01:27 PM	#16
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: orlando,fl Posts: 4,977	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm But Ekka treeseer can save them. __________________ Have your say join us today. old schooler

6th May 2008, 06:12 PM	#17
simo77 Sappling Join Date: May 2008 Location: sydney australia Posts: 7	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm That palm is in a horse yard and was nibbled on near 30 years ago by a horse,it just keeps on standing.Here is a close up pic Attached Thumbnails

7th May 2008, 04:27 PM	#18
TreeDimensional Mature Tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 426	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm Well, one thing is for sure, the tree out-lived the horse!

7th May 2008, 09:35 PM	#19
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,820	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm Never thought the horse would gnaw a palm, especially that type. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

17th May 2008, 11:05 AM	#20
Sean Freeman Monument Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,985	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm Two shots of Bangalow palms Archontophoenix cunninghamiana up at Mnt Tamborine showing the same adventitious development noted by others earlier, also the second had clearly been struck by fallen timber and the roots emerging from the sides of that damage, a clear lip evident for that one too, where flow of rain water would increase the moisture levels.

17th May 2008, 11:51 AM	#21
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,820	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm You prowling around the dark up there mate? __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

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