Double Stacked Cocos Palm

JayD · 26th April 2008, 02:52 AM

Hi Folks,
Here is an interesting Palm, Syagrus romanzoffiana, This one presents with adventitious roots.

This palm tree is a(CLASS) Angiosperma>Flowering plant> (SUBCLASS)monocot, It is only capable of primary growth,It grows from the shoot tips and root tips, The round dark scars on the trunk are leaf scars and the diameter of the trunk is directly related to the amount of water it recieves during the season.

Ekka · 26th April 2008, 04:23 PM

Sean Freeman · 26th April 2008, 08:09 PM

Great pic Eric, in trees when we see aerial adventitious roots emerging from the bark its a good bet that serious dysfunction is happening between the roots and the canopy..hence the attempt to reestablish a connection...assuming the same is true here..ie the section shown red arrow is not providing suffucient flow either up or down.

pumpedupalright-1.JPG

Suspect in the case of palms by pools often due to lack of any realistic environment/space for the roots, or completely impoverished soils.

Ekka · 26th April 2008, 08:16 PM

It's weird, very weird.

I read somewhere that in some places with certain palms what they do to transplant is just cut the bloody thing off and shove it in a hole and it grows new roots.

Another method was the artificially induce (like our pics) a new root system above ground by wiring peat moss etc to the trunk and wetting it continually. This brings a new roots system and then they cut the palm off just below and bury it in a hole ... wella, transplanted palm.

Now don't hold it to me what palms and where and the survival rate. Just saying what I've read however there's no real hard core facts on it.

One of my neighbors once built a 2m high retaining wall and buried the trunk of a cocos that deep. Bloody thing flourished and love it.

When we cut it down and ground it it had a new root system to grind. But that's all I can say, for the real evidence we would have to excavate the whole trunk out and see what happened.

There was no decay up the main stem either.

JayD · 26th April 2008, 08:49 PM

I have heard of this aswell,A bloke at Forster has cocos trunks cut into about 1200mm lenghts planted in between cabins.The scuttle bug I heard was he hoping that they would grow..LOL.You goto have hope in your life.

Ekka · 26th April 2008, 10:10 PM

What!?

He just planted sections of log?

LOL, that'll never grow, next time you see him and they're dead just ask him if he fertilized them. No matter the answer yes/no just go the other way and say I heard that doing that doesn't work.

JayD · 26th April 2008, 11:16 PM

Yes that's what he done!

Next time I'm in the area I'll get pictures..LOL.

newguy18 · 28th April 2008, 04:46 AM

Thats funny,he planted logs and hopes they will grow.

Quantum Leaf · 1st May 2008, 03:03 AM

This is a question I have had hanging around for some years, and your photos have prompted it yet again.
I have attached some photos of a Cocus palm I found some years ago. I sent them off to a number of palm societies and specialist nurseries in Aust and the US, yet no one could offer a reason. I settled on the phenomena of palm 'bottleneck' or 'increment variation', which is the stem diameter variation due to climatic or cultural practises. Pretty extreme though, and having experienced this in other specimens like the 3rd photo, it just dosn't quite gel. This 3rd photo, is the typical example of palms that have been kept in a pot within the nursery and then planted out. Notice how the taper changes consistently on all the palms, being the time of planting (I can confirm this, because I recall when these were planted). It is also a typical symptom of drought, etc.
Having spoken to the owner of the palm with the extreme stem change, the background fits with the 'bottleneck' theory. That is, the time of the extreme stem diameter change occured when they purchased the property and started watering and fertilising on a regular basis.
I am interested in what Sean Freeman had to say about a dysfunction between the roots and crown, and whether he has any further material, studies, resources on this aspect.

Sean Freeman · 1st May 2008, 05:31 AM

I was really just thinking aloud, and grossly simplifying the situation in the process....there is not much agreement on what causes adventitious root growth even after all this time and a great many well funded research and PhD projects!!!

There is a reasonable amount of sound material out here on the net, that can provide you with a working understanding of the various factors that it is agreed can be (and in specific cases are) critical in the emergence and growth of adventitious roots.

Like almost all aspects of growth in plants, palms or trees, it is driven monitored and managed through hormonal (chemical) checks and balances. Loss of connecivity between the existing roots and the canopy directly impacts on the status of the chemical growth control in place within the plant..I quess thats what I was getting at.

Ekka · 1st May 2008, 03:20 PM

I have a good theory.

It's common knowledge that stem diameters change according to the boom or bust conditions.

Many palms here through the last 3 years of drought have tapered their stems down a lot beside not exhibiting the same longitudinal growth.

The common denominator with the palms that have grown adventitious roots is.

1/ Rapid, distinct and pronounced stem dia growth

2/ An underside to that growth not a gradual taper

We know that we can induce roots along the stem of a palm but how about this. That step now becomes a moist area as water goes down the trunk.

In addition we all know palms have no rays and are basically tubes running up and down. This means that the water getting sucked up from the ground is no problem however the diffusion of the additional sugars from photosynthesis going down the palm become bottlenecked like sand in an hour glass at the stem diameter change.

That would then perhaps cause a "storage and saturation" of sugars in the stem where conditions are most favourable for adventitious root growth.

I have attached a diagram showing these factors at play. Blue is water going up and green is sugars going down.

Now where do I collect my PhD?

Quantum Leaf · 1st May 2008, 09:57 PM

Good thinking Ekka, and most plausable. I have never noticed this in any other palm species other than Cocus, and the fast growth rate of this species would support the theory. Has any one else seen this trait in any other species?

simo77 · 4th May 2008, 11:57 PM

Check this Phoenix palm out

Quantum Leaf · 5th May 2008, 12:32 AM

I'm assuming thats mechanical damage. Either way, the supporting ability of palm fibre extraordinary. (regarding the attached photos) Ive been waiting to see this one fail for years (I could be in for a wait) The diameter at the base is 300mm. A result of an over zealous lawn contractor.

Ekka · 5th May 2008, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simo77

Check this Phoenix palm out

Hey Simo ...

That ones scarfed up ready to go.

Quantum, that's a disaster waiting to happen, high target value with parking!

newguy18 · 5th May 2008, 06:27 PM

But Ekka treeseer can save them.

26th April 2008, 08:09 PM	#3 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,521	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm Great pic Eric, in trees when we see aerial adventitious roots emerging from the bark its a good bet that serious dysfunction is happening between the roots and the canopy..hence the attempt to reestablish a connection...assuming the same is true here..ie the section shown red arrow is not providing suffucient flow either up or down. pumpedupalright-1.JPG Suspect in the case of palms by pools often due to lack of any realistic environment/space for the roots, or completely impoverished soils. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

26th April 2008, 08:16 PM	#4 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,663	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm It's weird, very weird. I read somewhere that in some places with certain palms what they do to transplant is just cut the bloody thing off and shove it in a hole and it grows new roots. Another method was the artificially induce (like our pics) a new root system above ground by wiring peat moss etc to the trunk and wetting it continually. This brings a new roots system and then they cut the palm off just below and bury it in a hole ... wella, transplanted palm. Now don't hold it to me what palms and where and the survival rate. Just saying what I've read however there's no real hard core facts on it. One of my neighbors once built a 2m high retaining wall and buried the trunk of a cocos that deep. Bloody thing flourished and love it. When we cut it down and ground it it had a new root system to grind. But that's all I can say, for the real evidence we would have to excavate the whole trunk out and see what happened. There was no decay up the main stem either. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

26th April 2008, 08:49 PM	#5 (permalink)
JayD Astronaut Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 821	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm I have heard of this aswell,A bloke at Forster has cocos trunks cut into about 1200mm lenghts planted in between cabins.The scuttle bug I heard was he hoping that they would grow..LOL.You goto have hope in your life. __________________ Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory

26th April 2008, 10:10 PM	#6 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,663	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm What!? He just planted sections of log? LOL, that'll never grow, next time you see him and they're dead just ask him if he fertilized them. No matter the answer yes/no just go the other way and say I heard that doing that doesn't work. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

26th April 2008, 11:16 PM	#7 (permalink)
JayD Astronaut Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 821	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm Yes that's what he done! Next time I'm in the area I'll get pictures..LOL. __________________ Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory

28th April 2008, 04:46 AM	#8 (permalink)
newguy18 Tree World Icon Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,185	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm Thats funny,he planted logs and hopes they will grow. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

1st May 2008, 05:31 AM	#10 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,521	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm I was really just thinking aloud, and grossly simplifying the situation in the process....there is not much agreement on what causes adventitious root growth even after all this time and a great many well funded research and PhD projects!!! There is a reasonable amount of sound material out here on the net, that can provide you with a working understanding of the various factors that it is agreed can be (and in specific cases are) critical in the emergence and growth of adventitious roots. Like almost all aspects of growth in plants, palms or trees, it is driven monitored and managed through hormonal (chemical) checks and balances. Loss of connecivity between the existing roots and the canopy directly impacts on the status of the chemical growth control in place within the plant..I quess thats what I was getting at. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

1st May 2008, 09:57 PM	#12 (permalink)
Quantum Leaf Gettin' motoring Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Illawarra, NSW Posts: 13	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm Good thinking Ekka, and most plausable. I have never noticed this in any other palm species other than Cocus, and the fast growth rate of this species would support the theory. Has any one else seen this trait in any other species?

5th May 2008, 06:27 PM	#16 (permalink)
newguy18 Tree World Icon Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,185	Re: Double Stacked Cocos Palm But Ekka treeseer can save them. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related