big oak removal

stirmantrees

In 2006 I was called in to evaluate a large tree. It had been Struck by lightning and blew off a rather large chunk of bark. The piece of bark smashed a basketball backboard, missed hitting cars that are usually parked there, and landed right next to an underground gas tank (pretty big piece of bark . I arrived at the appointment to find it was a rather large Quercus Virginiana that had been struck. The bark that had been blown off exposed decay that quite frankly was a little odd in nature. After offering the options available reduction/trimming/removing/etc. the owner was sure that he wanted to remove the tree. After checking with the powers that be(county arborist, code enforcement, utility maintanence, etc) we were given the go ahead.
So here are some pictures to start and I will upload more each day or as often as I can. The project ran about 5 days and we used lift/loaders/crane/etc. I have some specs to. I hope you like the pics.

Attached Thumbnails

       

stirmantrees

Attached Thumbnails

       

jim1nz

What a shame to see that tree being cut down.

The lichen and moss alone on that tree would be older than the oldest bloke on this forum, probably the oldest two put together!!

__________________
SPEED ALWAYS FOLLOWS TECHNIQUE

jim1nz

Actually looking at the rest of the pics, thats an absolute disgrace that tree is being removed, insane.

You should delete this thread.

__________________
SPEED ALWAYS FOLLOWS TECHNIQUE

Eric Frei

Jim, I know many times I cut down perfectly healthy trees, and sometimes I too am stunned that we're allowed to. In this case the poster did check etc, if there's any failures here it's the authorities for not protecting it.

Had the tree have been protected then a consulting arborist would have to write a report, the city could also come and see and make their mind up, but that was not the case.

Here's what stirmantrees wrote:-

Recently on a site Jim there was a spectacular large scribblygum. It was maybe 1.2m DBH and 30m tall, very little storm damage and it was an isolated tree not a remnant or ex-forest stand. It got felled, there was no protection orders at all, nothing.

See in that first picture Jim, how many other big ones can you see? Perhaps to these people they're as common as a euc and considered just as deadly in that position (laymans point of view).

I think this thread has to stay and if anything it be used to highlight the conflicts of our emotional states of mind when doing our job, had stirmantrees walked away would that have saved the tree?

__________________

stirmantrees

Thank you Jim for your passion for trees as this was a specimen indeed. I even told the customer that nothing was an option right now. You see here in Florida litigation is a serious consideration when looking at trees. The owner of the tree was a successful business man who was not impacted by the tree but the tree completely leaned over the elderly couple house. The elderly couple had contributed to the care of the tree for decades and now from seeing a part of there property be destroyed by a piece of there neighbors tree they were afraid. The owner of the tree sought out much coucil and I was just one of those. Other not mentioned well respected services and arborist also came and gave there recomendations as well, which fell along the same lines. Then after all that he contacted me to take the tree out. It was his decision and he was given many options from many professionals.
Then came the county governments involvement. The head arborist came out and looked at the tree, then the tree was surveyed to make sure it was not on the utilities right of way(which if it was the county would had to have removed the tree), everybody came and looked at the tree. everybody! I called everyone I was to contact to make absolute certain I was in line with local laws.
What a tremendous decision this was for this tree owner and what a tremendous action i was to take.
Seeing as the inevitable was to occur I bought a digital camera, hired my brother to video much of the removal, paid a groundie to take about 700 shots of the project, bought a new bull rope, ordered the lift,and now I am discussing this with you on this forum. I do not take trees lightly and i appreciate your passion for them.


More pics to come.

jim1nz

Good discussion Ekka, yea i think possibly there is an emotional attachment for me, some one who cares for trees. The thing is, i too take down perfectly healthy trees but that tree there is quite an exception. I wouldn't remove that tree for a large bit of bark a lightning strike blew off. That is the sort of tree that there are very few left of. There is no point in walking away from the job because for sure there is work and money to be made there but not for a removal.

If ya want to look at it from a business point of view, over the decades im sure a large sum of money would have been spent on that tree. Its sheltered the property and provided amenity value. Now the tree is gone in one swoop, the cycle of work and money has also gone. Its could have been braced and reduced to dramatically reduce the chance of failure and retain the tree for future generations of arborists to work on.

Sell work you believe in! Cheers

__________________
SPEED ALWAYS FOLLOWS TECHNIQUE

Galbee

Can't wait stirmantrees yes its a pity to take it out but out it must come, youve done the homework on legals, now lets see those pictures and vids.

__________________
In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king

jim1nz

Why must it?

Is that what the HO really wants, have they heard the alternatives?

But nice to have a few grand in the back pocket though isnt it...

__________________
SPEED ALWAYS FOLLOWS TECHNIQUE

Eric Frei

True, however I run a tree business and not politics, I do more than my share in muck raking and arguing with all types, and get gracefully back stabbed and shit on for it.

Don't know if you remember that late 90's insurance crisis here where liability claims went through the roof and insurance premiums hiked so bad both companies and businesses went bust and closed down. The govt quickly responded by making laws to cap claims, changing policy requirements etc to save business and the insurance companies from lawyers.

Just shows how quickly they can respond if they want to.

The customer likely (like so many here) made a commercial decision. Based on what you have said he figures it will cost more to keep the tree over time than get rid of it. That's what many do here, how much to "fix" this tree now, in the future and so on versus cut it down now. When they have the right to cut it down regardless because there's no regulations stopping them then that's what many do.

Now with the Annne Frank tree the tree owner wanted to cut it down and people stepped in to "save the tree" .... and funding was arranged however what saved the tree at the 11th hour was an insurance company stepping up to the plate saying they'd insure any damage if the tree fell.

These things are a complex issue in USA, lawyers ready at any moment, client weighing up the options likely thinks ... well, got another 4 over here, this one can go, and those others don't threaten a 3rd party.

I find I make clearer decisions and live with myself easily when I remove emotional attachments ... I leave that for the tree huggers and greenies.

Walking away from malpractice events I will do but not legitimate work ... which that appears to have been. There was a deluge of pro's offering advice, the client clearly didn't care enough or seek the Guy Meilleur save all trees arborist either.

Things also happen to your reputation out there based on walking away. Stirmantrees walks away, client then tells 10 friends not to get him because he doesn't do big trees or doesn't like to kill trees anymore. To the client he thinks sort of tree man have I got here!

Maybe what could be sold is lightning protection for the other trees to avoid a repeat of this. How many of those have I sold? None, how about you?

__________________

Galbee

jim we dont know the options that stirmantrees gave to the HO and we dont know all of the decisions made by them or the neighbours, its not as if he has come on here and said "right ive taken this out what do you think", hes given his case clearly explaining that he gave them options.
i have taken similar trees out in the past in the uk and the process from start to finish has taken 9 months with legals, HO decisions, neighbours, i always gave the customers every option with prices clearly set as well my professional opinions, then we go with the customers decision, the money in the pocket is part of it we areall in the business of making money in the end, it's how we do that and the decisions that we make to get that money that sets us apart from the people who don't care at all, so i personally couldnt judge him on this.

__________________
In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king

newguy18

Eric and Jim,while we're all here because we care for the trees and try and better ourselves through others experience,live oaks[Quercus Virginiana] are beautiful,even more so in full maturity but i also can say that from my experience when they get that large,they are usually rotten to an extent as are most mature trees.Around here its not uncommon for me to slay trees that size at least once a week.There are little protection on them around my area and its sad but part of my job.

__________________
Have your say join us today.

I ship USA saws out of the USA

old schooler

jim1nz

All politics, tree protection and tree hugging aside, i think it comes down to what sort of work the company really wants as much as what the customer wants. Half the time the customer dosent know what they want and if there is a slight doubt about saving the tree in their eyes, the professional arborist should be able to sell an alternative to removal.

When it comes down to removals, for sure the lowest priced arborist should get the job because you get the same result, referrals dont mean squat because its the cheapest who get that work. When it comes to tree care and tree preservation, the customer wants a true professional, price is not so much an issue.

If your felling trees, you are fighting everyone for what little money you might get out of the job. If your providing professional tree care, your getting the cream work, referrals that lead to more of the same work and your saving potential work for your company in the future.

When it comes to insurance and law suits, no tree is 100% safe but if you do everything a professional would do, correct bracing and weight reduction for example, you have gone beyond reasonable means for the unlikely failure to occur. Obviously nothing is fail safe and the customer should understand what you have done and why.

Ekka your right it is different there, the trees the environment and the mentality. No doubt what so ever.

__________________
SPEED ALWAYS FOLLOWS TECHNIQUE

newguy18

I beg to differ,i get a lot f removals on the side because I'm regarded as the go to guy for the really technical and risky removals,I'm on every tree service in my area's speed dial, because i don't walk away from the dead,rotten nasty crap.Even though that oak in the first post was relatively healthy,trees like that are removed quite often in my area,unless it's state or federally protected it can be axed,which is sad at times.

__________________
Have your say join us today.

I ship USA saws out of the USA

old schooler

stirmantrees

Got a lot of good dialogue on this one. Jim, if you have any direct questions you would like to ask me concerning this project I will promise to be forthright and honest. I do not have to much time tonight but I would like to dialogue more on this topic. Just know the Home owner understood options. In fact I think you commented on another thread on a tree that I reduced. I think it was you. It was a good job if I say so myself. Maybe I can find it somehow. I'll post pictures here. It was this same customers tree that was reduced! I always try to do the right thing.
Got to go , my wife's calling

Attached Thumbnails

       

Eric Frei

LOL, I often talk to many people about when you were here and we drove around in bad traffic ALL THE TIME (and it's even worse now) doing quotes and the BS we got asked and told to do etc.

I'll never forget what you said about it.

__________________

stirmantrees

setting up

Attached Thumbnails

       

jim1nz

So why did you use a skylift for the foliage? Why not climb and rig the lot or if you had the crane there, use the crane from the start?

All im trying to say is, the tree could have been saved, you could have made money and everyone could have been happy. Unfortunately its not the way it works out sometimes, done now though.

__________________
SPEED ALWAYS FOLLOWS TECHNIQUE

stirmantrees

Jim, the tree was so large that it was almost just as efficient to use the lift for 1.5 days. I was able to keep the entire crew busy for that entire time. We would have had the crane waiting on us ($$$$$$$) to manage the brush. We elected to brush out first so that the crane work would fly quickly.

I want to talk more with you about how your approach would have gone with this tree. But i will ask you questions later.
wife's calling again. got to go again.

Attached Thumbnails

           

   

letigre

what a beautiful tree. such a shame.

my uncle has an oak in his front yard. was the reason he bought the place. 70+years old, bout 18m tall and 20m across. quad leader monster. big beautiful bows, wicked for limb walking. did some dead wooding in it for him. its amazing how long they hold onto their deadwood for.

__________________

sticks before chicks

Oldtimer

Looks like the guy did a good job and stayed safe by using extra equipment and not climbing the tree. No critical remarks on his work from me.
It is kind of hard to judge something this complex from the limited info posted on the board originally. It would take writing a book to explain all the conversations and discussion among the diverse parties to be able to judge if his actions where correct in removing the tree versus keeping it in place.



Nice tree!

Eric Frei

And that would be the customers (tree owners) actions.

__________________

stirmantrees

Attached Thumbnails

         

stirmantrees

working toward the big stuff

Attached Thumbnails

     

Gunslinger

I understand all of the emotion put forth here about removing a relatively healthy tree but what about the rights of the property owner? If the customer wanted the tree removed and it's not protected shouldn't that be enough? Isn't it his tree on his private property?

kiwi_tree_steve

its interesting to see the passion in the industry

i can see points on both sides of argument, in my opinion i would have done all i could to save this tree, as jim mentioned, end weight reduction and proper cabling techniques, will both reduce the chance of a breakout, and also calm owner's / elderly couple under it fears of big trees.

There are many Tree risk assessment styles and some are readily accepted in the industry and the courts as reliable, these are tools for us as arborists to use, not to shift responsibility for our "Calls" but to give guide lines for these calls to be made with. I Would have like to seen a couple of these risk assessments done on this tree.
most Business men trust systems, and a risk assessment is all about following the system and generating a result, easy sell to those type of guys in my opinion.

honeslty if it was my call i would have walked away before removing.

thanks for listening

Hmm ( i did notice a distinct lack of Chainsaw pants / chaps, and what's with the running shoes)

__________________
"You have to feel and touch a tree" Shigo

treevet

Health and structural integrity are 2 different commodities. It appears to me that Mr. Stirman consulted with many "experts" and the client ultimately made the decision which is inevitable.

The tree has a huge wound in an obvious flex point with massive structure above it and a number 10 (10 being the highest) target right below it (it appears in the picture). There was decay (unquantified given) found within the huge wound. If the section involved with the wound/decay was removed what tree would remain?

There is esoteric cabling (no opposites apparent here to cable to) and reducing treatments that can be "shoulda been dones" but as we know sometimes there is NO way to mitigate a given situation and the "treeseer" approach (save every tree no matter what) is just plain wrong. Often it is the "highly professional" tree company that has the knowledge, education and experience to judge yes or even NO on retaining a historical tree such as this. There is an end to all living things. Better the tree than a family of 4 sitting in their sedan or living room. It happens and no one can deny this.

I think you are barking up the wrong tree jiminnz or rather barking at the wrong treeman.

newguy18

Steve,chaps and pants aren't required for climbers here in the USA,they are optional for climbers,but mandatory for ground work.

__________________
Have your say join us today.

I ship USA saws out of the USA

old schooler

treevet

this is one of the more telling photos imo

Attached Thumbnails

 

TrevMcRev

That pic does point out the defect, size of part likely to fail & the target.

I think it's a sad but not necessarily wrong decision this mother had to go.

I don't know the trees history of work, but really thats the missing link here.

Could some/more/better weight reduction pruning and some/more/better cabling done proactively at the right stages of this trees life prevented the recent failure that likely had a lot to do with the decision to condemn the tree???

In my area surrounding local councils all have tree protection laws, yet with the defects & liability there is a fair chance that tree would still get approved for removal, albeit after arborist reports etc.

Another thought, controversial maybe, is when you consider the lifespan of long lived species eg.100+ years, should the homeowner of the moment really be able to make the decision to remove??? Really they are just the custodian for that tree for a short part of it's life... hhhhmmmmmmm...

__________________

Total Tree Care - Melbourne Arborist Reports & Consulting,Tree Pruning & Removal | Elm Leaf Beetle Treatment Melbourne

www.treegear.com.au - Australia's Best Value Arborist Supplies

FREE shipping for TREEGEAR Members-Join here