Training style vid - felling a side leaner, most viewed video in my collection

Eric Frei

Here's the model showing the theory. Some things to remember regarding the side rope.... grade changes. If you anchor the side rope higher or lower it will make a difference so take those things into consideration.

felling side leaning tree adjusted gun technique - model

felling side leaning tree adjusted gun technique - model

Witches hats (cones) are set up to show the angles. This is the most heavily viewed video in my collection. I used to have this on Youtube but they bumped it off due to soundtrack.

23.4mb wmv

http://www.palmtreeservices.com.au/video/sidelean.wmv

Post 11 below has some demonstrations of pie cuts which shows leaving wedge or pie shaped hinges has little influence on felling direction.
Training style vid - felling a side leaner, most viewed video in my collection

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Brother Colin

Now that was why I liked working for you ekka.

I was always learning something every day.

Eric Frei

Lifes like that, it's good when you get to fell trees, man I love it.

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Sean Freeman

Super vid, you can really see how much force was working in that stem despite the side rope wood fibres still pulled out in the hingewood on the left looking from the back cut. (In trees with less lean and with good sound timber you can use differences in hinge thickness to pull the tree around slightly in the fell, takes quite a lot of practice and experience to be confident that you have enough control, and you'd always back it up with a static control line)

Falling trees with leans really takes careful planning and working through the variables, having a simple check list or felling plan to go through each time helps to make sure we don't neglect anything in the rush to get the job done.

There's a great flash animation showing the use of side rope control but no where near as instructive as your vid. (I will track it down though cause they use an friction hitch to keep tension in the side rope throughout the fall)

SF

Sean Freeman

Here's that animation not a leaning tree in this eg but at least gives an idea of backing up control for directional felling esp in really tight spots


SF

kauriman

Hi Ekka

Excellent vid once again. Great techniques. Just wondering if you in Aus need traffic management when working close to roads?

Here in NZ any tree felling within two tree lengths of the road requires traffic management i.e. signs etc and trafffic stopped when the felling is taking place. Thats whether the tree is leaning towards, away or sideways to the road.

Any comments.

Drouin Tree Service

In my state(vic)you can have a tempory roadside worksite less than 5 minutes just need workman signs otherwise its full traffic managment/plans etc.

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Eric Frei

Frankly, dont know the rules, lot of buck passing here.

All I've heard is common sense prevails ... back roads etc that aren't busy no worries and busy roads look out.

I asked once what is busy ... some dude said 100+ cars in the time it takes to do you job?

2 lengths on any tree felling operation is standard OHS, try that in many back yards. Just don't make the back cut when a cars coming

That area was semi rural.

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Sean Freeman

The problem for anyone in Queensland is that outside of the general obligations for WH&S in the Act relating to ensuring a safe workplace there are no regulations and no code of conduct....Yep unlike the other states and territories we have no code of practice to follow at all.

The best we've got is this recommendation from QAA

WORKING SAFELY WITH TREES

We believe that all workers in the amenity tree industry should work to legal and most importantly a safe working standard to protect not only the public and property, but also to reduce the risk of work related death and injury in our highly dangerous industry.

As we are yet to publish the Queensland Arboricultural Association Code of practice, we would like all our members to follow and adopt the Victorian Work Cover code of practice ?Working safely with trees? recommended practices for the amenity tree industry, until such time that the QAA Code of practice has been indorsed.

It is in everyone?s best interest to work to a standard that is recognized, as you, your business and your employee?s will benefit out of working in a safe environment.

We ask all members to familiarize themselves with the booklet and to get back to us with any feedback regarding this matter.
Thats how its been for a fair while now, and frankly it ain't good enough.

If you are members of QAA you should give them feedback

On a practical level if you're working for Roadtek or Main Roads clearing in the road reserve they will require a Traffic Management plan if the work can potentially impact upon road users - and that requires the use of acredited traffic control personnel. But if its only one small job for a private client then from what I've seen trees get dropped processed and the crew move on, and yep that can get pretty damn scary with some of the blokes knocking around

My advice is in Qld err on the side of caution, bigger felling jobs may need temp road closure contact the police in advance arrange traffic controllers written work method so on, and so on.

SF

chris girard

This is my favorite video in your collection too.

Like you and I have have discussed before, when felling a side leaner the Adjusted Gun Technique is really the way to go instead of using just the Tapered Hinge Tech. alone.

Though I do still like to sometimes use a combination of both along with a side tensioning line.

Eric Frei

Yeah, the tapered hinge wouldn't really move a tree much ... we've been down that track but leaving more wood on the side opposite the lean (tapered hinge) helps hold that tree up.

I dont get enough leaners to fell, did we ever figure out if that forestry calculator was accurate ... where's the link for that thing?

see what the effect of leaving a tapered hinge was (pie cut) and adjusted gun etc.

Conclusion is that leaving a taper doesn't turn the tree but it does help combat the lean.

9.03mins and 42.7mb wmv

www.palmtreeservices.com.au/video/piecuts.wmv

In this next video I use 2 alex palms to demonstrate that pie cuts have little influence on fall direction. In one I "chase the tree down" to try to get some turn, but get very little.

4.51min 23.6mb
www.palmtreeservices.com.au/video/piecuts2.wmv

In this close up video we watch the pie shaped hinge break the fibres on the LH side first then the lot. The tree only turned as branches struck the ground and then it settled. Close to the end of the video where you have a view of the butt end of the log you can see how radical the pie shaped hinge was.

0.55min and 4.26mb WMV
http://www.palmtreeservices.com.au/v...peredhinge.wmv

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Eric Frei

Some diagrams so the science is understood.

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newguy18

Nice video Ekka,I just have one question not that I am questioning your techniques but would it have been safer to undermine the trees center of gravity?I think thats how I would have done it but I am asking because I am unsure.

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old schooler

Eric Frei

Posts 14,15,16 and 17 copied from this thread.
Box or Square Scarf - Notch

First came the paragraph as seen here. It says

To which you said this:-

You said it was a false statement. Hence the confusion. Below you state .... I bolded the area of vital importance here, that the scarf determines the felling direction not the hinge. That is the key issue here and that means the statement in H4 is true.

Attached Images

h4.bmp (44.1 KB, 50 views)

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JohN Dee

Hmmm, I've always been under the impression that by "adjusting" the hinge on one side it helps in the tinyest but practical way to help direct the tree partially over to the right or left.

I've "adjusted" the hinge many times before and from the end result I got it a little further over (then the direction of my face cut) - where I wanted it. Now maybe it has all just been coincidence and my not paying that close enough attention to the aftermath of a successful felling.

I will definately be following this up from now on and I will be attempting to do my own research on the "adjusted" hinge. I see the documented proof there, and listen to all your opinions, but I am just not satisfied that it doesn't affect the direction of the fall(practically). If you guys provide your own documents, videos and pictures (oh and opinions) I will listen and watch them, but I don't think I will ever be satisfied until I see it all completely layed out in front of me - with every single little matter of detail.

Come to think of it, I think my chainsaw manual also states that "adjusting" the hinge does benefit the fall in the direction you want(practically).

Now I've really gotta find my manual hey...

Hey Ekka, Treelore, you's are talking about two different things (based on the same thing) from Treelores initial reply to H4 document.

Treelore is talking about the hinge breaking (parallel) at a 180* degree direction (to either the right or left of the face cut itself). What you, Ekka, pulled Treelore up on is the "adjusted" hinge doesn't alter the direction of the fall when the wood goes down at 90* degree angle to the hinge. I'm going to put up diagrams - see below.


So this is the diagram of what I understand you to be pulling Treelore up on, Ekka


And this is Treelores point of which what I think he was talking about with his initial reply.

This is also my point aswell. I have used this (the "adjusted" hinge) within the tree on small diameter side leaner branches and while felling big side leaner barrels. I have also used an unadjusted hinge on a small branch within the tree that was a side leaner branch on a Blackbutt and it broke off the hinge 180* degrees (parallel) (good thing it was clear beneath).

Sorry to all the people I may have bored with this long ass post of mine and my dis-belief - just to fill you in incase you think I'm abit all over the place tonight or unclear, I have had rougly a little over 8 hours sleep since friday morning and have had a VERY big weekend which has involved alot of alcohol consumption and partying, I'm right at the end of it now though and should be fine in the morning.

I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong but I have used these practices and seen the successful results and if I can't believe in what I see, WTF am I meant to believe in?

I shall get a good night sleep and will reply some time tomorrow when I can think a little bit better and examine my own post properly.

P.S Hey Trev, those are some sweet pictures man, bet you miss the days of going to Prac class with all the boys.

P.S.S Just a glossary on my terms: Practically:= Enough to warrant the use, Adjusted:= Tapering the hinge.

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Treelore

With you all the way John. scarf provides direction backcut controls the fall.

Eric Frei

You've never had it laid out better, but like I said, till Columbus sailed around the world he thought it was flat too ... bet you couldn't have told him it was round either.

The tapered hinge is also used where trees have decay or hollows etc, isn't just focused to leaners. So losing one off to the side is likely if hinge wood is rotten on one side so you leave a thicker hinge that side. On dramatic leaners you need to side rope anyway.

These aren't things taught in TAFE ... it's beyond their scope and in some cases abilities. When I did my course what they taught on side leaners was wrong, and why I went out to prove it.

The way you find out is using symmetrical trees like I did, then try to turn them with tapered hinges but all the cuts have to be level and square and no wind. The video camera needs to be set up dead inline like mine was. The trees need to go down on their own, no influencing the fall direction. Pines are perfect for this.

What I see in most cases is people over gunning leaners anyway, then leaving a pie cut hinge and thinking they turned the tree.

In those pics TD put up they laid a row of trees out with varying pie cuts, same conclusion. That's because the hinge wood breaks from the back to the front. The hingewood on one side starts to break first so as the tree progressively goes over the hinge is becoming even. See the bottom video in this post, only 0.55min long.
Training style vid - felling a side leaner, most viewed video in my collection

In some cases yes, I've had trees turn and do some whacko stuff. I had a head that I bombed out of a cocos palm turn 30 degrees to the scarf even with side fibre cuts, hinge was slightly thicker the opposite way. There was a slight breeze so that's why I had an uneven hinge. But what happened I believe was that one side of the tree had that compressing real tough fibres and the other not. I have also found with cocos palms on hills that they will follow the the down hill lie of the land when felling. If you are felling one horizontally across a hill it will slowly drift off the scarf to a few degrees downhill. Just an observation, and weighting of big bunches of berries makes a difference to, so I pie cut them.

Hinge failure, whether it's a parallel hinge or tapered hinge can be "catastrophic" in either case. The terminolgy you guys are using is incorrect. It's like saying I pulled the wings of the fly and asked it to fly away but it didn't so I conclude that flies ears are in their wings.

I have said all along, that tapered hinges are used to add more wood and strength to the side opposite the weighting and lean to prevent hinge failure not to alter fall direction ... it's that simply said and clear cut.

It doesn't help when terminolgy gets mashed up, some-one says a statement is false but agrees with it.

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JohN Dee

Yes, last night while dosing off, I pondered this thought in my head. The hinge breaks from back to front eventually equalising out, your right mate. I've included some diagrams to help anyone who isn't 100% with us here.

I guess all the times I've "adjusted" the hinge to change the direction of my scarf, it was just lack of noting that it hadn't done much which lead me to believe in it.

Diagram is below.



But hey I just though of something, rember Ace's video of dropping that tree and his groundy put the wedge in the face cut? That could help adjust the direction of the fall, because one side of the hinge would start breaking before the other.

I'm aware, that I wasn't taught in my course how to fell a side leaner or hollowed trees, but they always stated to us when teaching us how to fell small trees: That this was NOT a tree felling course. They did run numerous chainsaw courses throughout the year though, going from level 1 to level 3 in chainsaws.

Each and every single one of my teachers had a minimum 20 years + exp upto 40 years in the industry. Every single one was a minimum lvl 3 Arborist ranging up to their diplomas - lvl 5. Each and every single one of them at one point ran their own successful operation, 4 still do, 2 are now full time teachers for Arb at Ryde TAFE - It was more then in their scope and within their abilities, it was in their face EVERYDAY.

Now I don't know the 100% story of your teachers teaching you the wrong stuff, but from what I've read and can see: Your teachers tried teach you wrong, you proved them wrong and yourself right, your teachers were from the Australian School of Horticulture - you have been let down by the teachers of our industry. Those are your circumstances Eric, not mine. I have come a very long way since my initial post on AS, probably 15-20% because of sites like Tree World but the other 80% is because of TAFE but for you to continually mock my teachers or my school is seriously just not right and kind of upsetting because you are a good Arbo, but have formed some sort of generalised opinion about TAFE based off one bad experience. If tree work has taught us anything, it's that it is never 100% the same story as last, ALWAYS different. It should be the same for that one experience I speak of.

Now you can tear this post up, edit it, pull me up on anything, rage at me or agree with me, I will listen because I'm an easy going guy and like to think I'm pretty open.

To all the readers I do apologise for derailing this thread even further, but I do hope you enjoy the read as I've enjoyed typing my posts and reading all yours

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southsoundtree

This is very interesting. I've been taught about the uneven steering hinge. Hard to say without the side by side, similar trees with similar situation set-up that you had.

What about use of a dutchman (on kerf cut beyond the other on one side of the scarf/notch) to steer the tree. As the tree falls, it is supposed to close the face (in the effected part of the hinge, this is the kerf's thickness) and start to break the hinge on that side very soon after the tree starts moving, thereby steering the tree away from the Dutchman side. With this new to me information about offset/ tapered hinges, it makes me wonder.

Do you have any information/ testing on this?

Thanks,

Sean

Eric Frei

John,

If your teachers have not taught you to the approved standard module of felling side leaning trees then how would you know?

The teacher was Brett Hamlin, Australian climbing champion and world reknown legend, he has to teach per the module ... by the book.

Wasn't one of your teachers also debating wall4 incorrectly hmmm? Whilst I haven't singled any school or teacher out wow you sure get your knickers in a knot easily, fact is they are human and make mistakes. However when you elevate these people to some superhuman accomplishment in your eyes then you may need to get a reality check, they're JUST PEOPLE and make mistakes like any.

Tell me right now, how many hort schools are teaching that gypsum breaks up clay, arb schools still saying trees are effective sound barriers?

I'm yet to see side leaner felling with adjusted guns on the curriculum, sure you can jump up and down, rave away, but I dont see the evidence nor do I see their participation. Notice how they all steer clear, pretty much of all forums, says something I feel but sure as eggs they lurk.

How many leaning trees did the teachers fell, how many were video'd and tested to see if tapered hinges made a difference, how many were using the adjusted gun technique and what was the offset, how many rigged a dynomometer to the side rope to measure forces, how many made a lean weighting calculator to understand the forces on side ropes? NONE. These are the questions that bring home the bacon.

Means shit how long you done this job, means a lot how well you do it.

You yourself said how you taught the instructors a few things .... funny about that! And where did you learn it from?

Such is life.

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JohN Dee

Ok you've got me there, based on the fact I havn't been "taught" that by my teachers, but they have spoken of their experience with me and many others. Being in this game and dealing with so many different people you learn to get a really good bullshit radar - well I know I have one and a good one at that. You know one of my main service areas is Mount Druitt and it has a 68% population of Immagrants, I'll leave that statement to be answered/verified in yours and everybodies thoughts. This bullshit radar does not go off when they - my teachers talk.

First time I've heard of him . You know I often mentioned the McMahons in class with their latest videos that they brought out and alot of the blokes were like, who?

Yes I'm aware they are just people, LOL. What else are they? I don't raise them to some superhuman, but just state what I have seen & heard, my dad has seen, the rest of my class and the 40 + generations of classes before me has seen with these people. They know their shit and don't tolerate shit.

Wouldn't be too different about you boasting and going on about WINTEC college now would it? How certain members here are the ants pants in tree work trained by the ants pants tree college? They certainly are very good tree workers and tree worker educators, but you seem to be lifting them to a superhuman status...

Not mine, whilst it would be easier for them to give into peer pressure and just answer yes it does or yes they do, they just state the facts to 20-30 unsettled tree blokes. I remember Bruce Macloud (Arborcraft[One of my teachers]) continually stating that the trees wern't a good sound barrier even though he'd get queried or told like nearly every week by the same people on the subject...

Like you always state, Australia is that far behind with the internet and its use it's not funny.

You know what, a few weeks ago, I tried getting one of my mates from class onto Tree World... It took me 4 weeks of repeated attempts, writing down the URL on a piece of paper every week, telling him how good the site is, the new kewl videos that have been posted.... 4 weeks and he finally gets on in his spare time, now I'm unsure if he has registered, but he definately lurks. You know what him and the majority of my class mates have said about themselves lurking here on Tree World? We're a bunch of hot heads and they feel intimidated to post because of the strong opinions and attitudes that come across in here. They don't want to loose face because of a few beginner newby fumbles.

But now, I'm going to be on their case about getting on here.

Mate I can tell you now, and even you know this, Judy fakes - The head Arb teacher at Ryde TAFE had a hand in writing the AS4373 1996 and the 2007. She also helped write the NSW Code of practices: Amentity Tree Industry 1998 and Tree Work 2008. I'm pretty sure Bruce had a hand in this aswell.

Besides standards and COP's, they have also written many Arb books going from basic tree biology, Advanced biology, Tree surgery, how to run a tree business and many more which I'm sure you and other members could name.

That is true . But these people have been doing this job for a very long time very well with all of their fingers, toes and body parts still intact oh aswell as their business's.

Yeah I did say that and am proud to say that. These teachers listened to me and everyone else as if we were their best friend. The fact that they leave themselves open to listen to students opinions and then include it in their teaching (if it is good enough) is definately something major and not seen a lot especially in our industry where everybody is a know all.

Not to drag Jim1NZ into this, but look at him, a lvl 6 arborist, jet setting, globe trotting champion efficient out in the field tree climber/worker. And in his occasional posts, he's always telling us that he learns something new! Someone at his level ALWAYS learning something new in our industry. That is really good and I love hearing it.

I was told that there were break downs and cut outs in communication there, mate

Overall, I have alot of respect for my teachers, these guys only get paid for 8 hours of the day but actually end up doing an 11-13 hour day all for us students. They take pride in their work and are very passionate about this industry.

I seriously would recommend this course to anybody in the industry. Local, State, National or International.

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Eric Frei

Yeah sure, on his side, no-one else seemed to have trouble ... maybe he needed to read his notes!

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RandyMac

Gosh, you-all chop this pretty fine, I knew that arborist training was quite extensive, really rather complex compared to the training I had for timber falling. Opposite ends of the scale, so to speak. You hash out some interesting stuff, lots of it is beyond my scope, but new things usually are. Lots to learn here, some I can use, some, well, interesting none the less.
The last time I climbed a tree, with the intent to cut something off it, I had a bowie in my teeth to cut a paper wasp nest, to use as a practicle joke.

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Treelore

Eric, in Australia we have a Forestry harvesting code of practice. FPI05 which states amongst many other things. Your scarf (which is a required 2 cuts that must meet at a horizontal line) MUST face in the direction of intended fall as well as use of uneven hinge wood to guide a leaning tree. Without substantial evidence and a hearing that supports your evidence and alters the practice everything you speak of is ILLEGAL. For anyone to adopt any of the methods that you speak of jeopardizes their liabilty as well as placing you in a position where Public indemnity insurance would be very handy. Many people have been killed by using the methods you are suggesting an I have been instructed to say by a health and safety officer for forrestry this code of practice has been written in blood. It is unlawful for you to suggest to anyone to alter methods that are an Industry code of practice and despite what your feelings are about the bio-mechanics of a hinge if anyone has an accident by listening to your suggested methodologies within Australia and it is shown that you who are not registered as an RTO and giving this sort of information to people who may in fact use it you will be accountable.

Sean Freeman

When we have written about different felling techniques in the past we have been careful to point out that none of these techniques are to be tried out by untrained, unqualified persons...perhaps we have all let this important caveat slip by the wayside?

Personally I have not seen in any of Erics vids nor in any of his posts advice in relation to felling that is unsafe, or contrary to the Forest Harvesting Code Of Practice......it could be I'm just not reading closely enough.

We do have a Forest Harvesting Code Of Practice for forestry in Oz, in fact it was through that very COP with respect to manual harvesting that I was trained...on reading your post treelore I did not remember any reference anywhere within the code to the use of tapered hinges/holding wood....so I checked...its not there.

I include the section of the COP that covers the requirements for manual felling...

2.doc

Much of the disagreement about tapered hinge/holding wood comes (IMO) from a misunderstanding of what is happening during the fell, its simple physics.
Whatever direction we want the tree to fall, we must create movement in the direction of the scarf (assuming we have cut the scarf correctly etc...)..and that direction alone. The purpose of the tapered hinge is to resist an asymmetry in the weight distribution of the canopy, due to lean or unbalanced foliage, whatever. The amount of resistance that this taper provides is not great (although species and individual tree conditions are very important here)...canopy reduction, pull lines wedges and jacks are the means by which any significant asymmetry should be safely managed.

Treelore

Sean this entire thread is of a scarf being placed in a direction that the tree is not expected to fall!!! That in itself is bad practice which noone picked up on. To think that it is even an acceptable practice to teach tearing of the hingewood in order to place a tree is lunacy. The acceptable code of practice has been written in order to stop such ridiculous forms of malpractice and many have died and many research institutions do nothing but look at bio-chemistry and fibre of timber to ascertain exactly what we have in todays terms of safe felling. These are tried and true methods that are beyond reproach at this particular juncture. That as said, to recommend anything other than the COP is illegal and to suggest that there is a better way of doing things without being in approval of the COP is a great way to get in real trouble. Hingewood is an essential component of felling leaning trees because the additional hinge offers more resistance so keeping a tree straighter for longer. These are basic standards and at this point the wheel is not going to be reinvented! Oh and Sean Bore cutting and quarter cutting are a standardized forestry way of cutting hazardous and leaning trees that require differentiation in hinge thickness!!

Sean Freeman

That post makes no sense to me sorry.
Have you actually read the Code of Practice mate, it does not make mention of tapered hingewood/holding wood. Incidentally bore cutting and quarter cutting, excellent safe techniques that can be leant through training are not part of the code of practice either.

Eric Frei

You have missed the point so incorrectly it borders on humiliating, the tree of course follows the scarf to a tee, and the side rope at 90 degrees to it does exactly that.

It's so dissapointing that you even call yourself an arborist if after all the videos and diagrams you fail to comprehend this procedure, shame on you, back to grade 3 comprehension!

Other readers, TreeLore has failed to realise that the tree falls true to hinge but the "offset" is it's own canopy geometry "offset" from the hinge. His rantings and banter are simply rhetoric .... absolute tripe, nonsense and the typical stifle that becomes institutionalised, and man within a mould. Who are you taking to your next tricky felling job, Text Book TreeLore or Ekka hits the cone at 20m?

You can eat all those words above, what's ridiculous is your posts and sensationalism of danger, deaths, malpractice bla bla bla .... act like a knob!

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Treelore

Eric that tree does nothing in the order of following the scarf. Please don't bring into question my quals. The tree if you were adjusting for side lean for the head, the trunk should have followed your scarf line. It didn't however. The tree in fact fell to the right of your proposed cone and this alone was due to rope elasticity otherwise the whole thing would have been calamitous. If you had in fact scarfed the tree so that the trunk fell in the direction that it ultimately ended up you would not have been fighting hingewood half as much as you were. You want to talk about comprehending procedure!!

Eric Frei

Sigh, when you eyes connect to your brain ... then post.

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