Training style vid - felling a side leaner, most viewed video in my collection

Sean Freeman

In the (perhaps vain) hope to provide some clarity where there has been a fair bit of argueing at cross purposes, animosity and name calling even resulting in a banning....let me revisit some of the points that I believe need to be carefully and clearly stated.

1. I don't believe Eric or anyone else has ever intended to encourage any un-trained unqualified persons through the watching of video on this forum to attempt to undertake any type of tree felling. It is and will always be amongst the most dangerous things that you can be envolved in, it requires a lot of training under the watchful eye of fully qualified and experienced trainers, in a training environment.

2. Noone has stated that trees should be felled in any other way than by following the scarf that is cut for them.....the scarf (or a perpendicular line from the middle of the scarf) gives the intended felling direction of the stem of the tree being felled.

3. What has been said is that in the particular case of felling a tree with a lean any offset position of the canopy relative to that perpendicular line will be reflected in the section of the tree after it is felled.



What eric has been saying is if you cut the scarf with this in mind you will be able to allow for that offset...thereby avoiding say an unmovable valuable object (the grey square) which would be struck if the offset was not accounted for.

The confusion and disagreement seems to be around the value or otherwise of the tapered hinge in all of this. I don't think anyone has said that a tapered hinge is not relevant to the success of the fell just that its influence on altering the final direction of the fell is absolutely minimal. The tapered hinge would still be used (IMO) even in the adjusted scarf to ensure that sufficient hinge/holding wood is retained through the fell...if not then John Dees scenario would be very likely...



Now in all of this I would like to add (or rather repeat) some things...every single tree that we fell is different to the last one felled....we have to take into consideration the assessed strength of the wood tissues the amount of lean (if any) and if that can be managed without canopy/weight reduction. There is only so much redirection possible irrespective of the technique being used, when dealing with leaning trees, without control lines, wedges levers and jacks most of the serious leaning trees I have dealt with would not have been fellable in any direction other than the way they were leaning. Attempting to direct the fell even marginally against the existing lean of a tree rightfully is classified as a complex fell.

None of what I have understood to be Erics adjusted scarf (or gun!) contradicts the industry standards (as limited and basic as they are) in any significant way....although if i have misunderstood please enlighten me.

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stirmantrees

here we go again. cant see training vids
so when dealing with a side leaning tree, tapered hinge wood does not contribute to turnig a tree?

Eric Frei

Videos should be there now.

About the effect of tapered hinges that has already been discussed and confirmed it makes no difference to felling direction, as proven in videos and these posts.

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murphy4trees

Ekka...
You are a much better arborist than you are a scientist, as is the guy that wrote the paper you cited here.. Appaerently there is more research that needs to be done... I only watched your first video...
You cut one dead pine that was burned at the base with a tapered hinge, then one dead pine with no significant taper to the hinge, then one live pine with some kind of stepped hinge and you are drawing a conclusion that the tapered hinge has no effect on pull? Do I have that right? Cause I didn't take the time to read all the details in all the posts..

Are you serious? Do you really think your results are applicable to hinges acrosss the board? When I was in second grade I took a survey at my school and came home and proudly announced to my parents that the predominant religion in the world was the Episcopal Church... Only proiblem with that survey is the school I went to was called Episcopal Academy... Now my little survey was about as scientific as your study on those three pines... Andthe study you cited on the poplar removal... that too was on a poorly hinging wood... And palms ... how well do they hinge?

I think you'd get much different results cutting hinges with elm or hickory or other really good hinging wood... I'd guess that the hinging ability of the wood is the prinary factor in determining the amount of effect of a tapered hinge, though certainly the height of the backcut relative the notch is going to have an effect as well... other factors might include wether trees were pulled over with high pull lines tied to trucks or wedged over.. And overall amount of fibers in the hinge (total width). There are a lot of variables and I Am sure that any good scientist could point out other major flaws in your science..

You may be right in saying that the tapered hinge has more of an effect in helping to fight sidelean, thus keeping the hinge from failing, rather than actually effecting the direction of fall... That is after all what it is most commonly used for.

Now you've done it... I AM going to have to go out and shoot some video myself... which is an issue as work is picking up..

murphy4trees

oh and another problem with the cited paper on poplars is that the hinge width on the thin side stayed the same... thus there was always a significant amount of fibers holding across the length of the hinge... sometimes when making a tapered hinge, I'll run the backcut on the thin side right up til it meets the notch, then bring the saw around on the thick side until the tree starts to move...

His conclusion, the final paragraph of the piece "hinge modification etc.." is GARBAGE... JUNK science..

Eric Frei

Why is it that the people with no evidence attack those who have some?

Go fetch boy, get something more than lip service.

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NeTree

Well, it's been a month...

murphy4trees

I'll produce post and share videos and writing on my own schedule.. thank you

Eric Frei

Murph, we're just stirring ya up.

You need to ensure that trees are relatively symetrical or evenly weighted and no wind, also terrain makes a difference as trees on slopes fall a little different to trees on flat plains.

Line up accurately.

You ever watch golf on TV and even when the camera is dead behind the player and he hits a great straight shot it looks (on TV) like the ball goes off sideways somewhere then drops back on track .... like a skewing effect.

Dont get sucked in by that because the same appears when felling trees.

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NeTree

Just busting on ya, Murph. It may take 6 months for the opportunity to present; one of the reasons the land clearing side of my work is so fun... so many trees and chances to experiment!

murphy4trees

Good advice, thanks, I'll keep that in mind...
Probably best to go with two or more cameras to show the falls from differetnt angles... There are a lot of variables both in the backcut and the direction of pull, as well as depth of notch. I've got a good idea of how I want to shoot it, just waiting for the right opportunity.

Its got to be the right job, which may or may not come up sooner or later. I'll keeep the project in mind and bid accordingly of needed.. This is the kind of project that will be fun, but must take a back seat to regular business operations.

NeTree

Same issue I run into; indeed the paying business has to come first. I've got a few good full-length removal videos, but I don't have the software you do to speed things up, edit freely, and drop good music into them. Your videos are well-produced.

murphy4trees

OK,
I just sold a job yesterday, where there is a great opportunity to make the video showing the ability of the backcut to steer a tree..

I AM really looking forward to doing this shoot... There is enough money on the job to afford the extra time to make the video.. 6-7 trees, open flat yard, no obstacles.. nothing too big either which will make them easier to shoot..
It may take a while to do the editing though..

Eric Frei

Good one, can you get more than one camera on it?

Try to have one directly behind and one directly in front.

Hopefully no wind.

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murphy4trees

WOW,
I was really surprised yesterday..
REALLY surprised...

FIrst three drops were white ash, generally an OK hinging wood, but certainly not good..

First tree was dropped with a tapered hinge, pull line directly in line with the notch, notch was measured with a dry wall T to get an exacxt direction and a line was laid on the ground to show the riecrtion of the notch. Cone placed at end of line.. tree fell right in line with notch..

The back cut was ever so slightly below the notch, so I thought tat may have been the cause, or perhaps it was a combination of the direction of the pull line and wood fiber charactorsitics of the species of tree.

The next tree, same species, was cut with a tapered hinge, backcut just slightly above the notch and no pull line, as it had a slight head lean..
this tree fell directly in line with the backcut, some 15º+ off line with the hinge..

3rd tree, same species, was cut exactly the same as the second, with a pull line and it fell exactly in line with the notch.. which again surprised me..

4th tree was a black walnut, might have fallen just slightly off the gun, but hard to say as the tree might have rolled when it hot the ground.

5th tree, wild cherry with a lot of side lean. taperd hinge seemed to have fought the lean , and tree seemed to fall in line with the gun, though hard to say, as the limbs were all over the place..

SO anyhow, the reuslts clearly show that the backcut can steer the tree, which I was able to clearly and unmistakeably do exactly once yesterday.. but was not able to do reliably in these species.. I do not yet understand all the factors contributing to the results, but hopefully will get a better understanding with future experiments.. More later

Eric Frei

Yeah, some inconsistency.

Got any more trees to try?

Maybe try some side rope techniques too.

The thing is there's some factors at play, getting a symmetrical straight tree and trying to turn it is totally different from a side lean that is already weighted to fall off a hinge.

Getting reliable consistency is the key, and adjusted gun side rope will deliver it.

Keep testing though, I do tons of palms so get lots of chances with straight symmetrical for turns.... but then people argue palms bust hinges differently to trees.

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murphy4trees

Here's your proof... can jump through any more hoops for you?

NeTree

Okay, Murph; 'bout frikkin' time you posted up what you were on about.

Of course you can steer a tree with the back cut; that's timber felling 101.

I still don't see why you'd NEED to, outside of swinging the top around an obstacle; why not just notch it where you wanted it to go to begin with?

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Yours,
Erik

www.netree.org

Eric Frei

Well he's cut off about 1/3 of the hinge which violates felling rules. angled back cuts should leave hingewood across the entire hinge.

Here is the picture of the tested back cuts he criticises ...



Furthermore I have video evidence that shows contrary, with correct hinges left as per the article he criticises.

Sometimes even a strip of bark on one side will spin a tree, what Murphy has shown is how not to fell a tree.

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JohN Dee

First of all, I've gotta say, great video. You yanks, you naturally shine and have that cool charisma in front of the camera..

Ekka is right. With a correct hinge, you can not steer the tree away from the scarf (notch) direction. If it is something like a radiate pine and you don't cut out the side fibers on a correct hinge then there is a chance the tree can go anywhere besides the scarf direction, BUT! That is not steering.

We've had this argument before... I thought I had put up diagrams before explaining how that hinge works?

Anyways if I get some time I may whack up an animation explaining and demonstrating how a hinge works and how tapered hinges don't steer the tree.

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We are what we repeatedly do... Excellence then, is not an act, but HABIT...

Red : Green : Blue

Victor Lindsay

It didn't fall where you wanted it to, so i see no control. You could have put it between the two cones with the tried and true notch.

Eric Frei

Here's pictures to show what I am on about. A considerable portion of the hinge is gone on one side of the tree, looks more than 1/3





The thing is Murphy, you wrote this.

You did not even look at all the evidence, jumped on some crusade and made it personal. You say I'm no scientist but come in here like a loose cannon shooting your gob off, then produce a fail! Behind the scenes I did moderate you, because you are a loose cannon .... but I waited for the evidence. Evidence is just that, my evidence shows what it does, if you go out and get a different result doing it correctly it does not mean mine is wrong ... just different but credible. However you had to get childishly nasty, and this is not some AS style shit forum, there is order here.

The article by Newsham is also credible and relatively transparent. He (I assume like I) went out to test something, to try to get some result, without the intention of proving anyone right or wrong. You on the other hand went out preloaded, and in your defiant attempt to get a different result screwed it up .... but before posting the video came here bragging you were going to shut my gob. I moderated you, loose cannon, then you posted I'm some fascist .... in hind sight Murphy you should be thanking me for covering up your damning posts.

Then you produce this crap video. You must have gone to Mario Vaden school with the copyright crap on your videos too, what a load of shit Murphy, pull your head in. Like you said, if you want respect then treat others respectfully.

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murphy4trees

Now that's not nice...
You tell me to
"go fetch boy"... and I get a little snippy...
then restrict my posting and go off like that.
I can steer a tree with the backcut.. showed it on video.
I can do it while leaving the hinge from side to side.
There are many varibales involved, which I AM still trying to figure out.
I AM a big proponent of free speech.

Eric Frei

And I am a big proponent of getting BS out of here. Which is what you showed.

Yet you reckon I'm no scientist, granted, but that makes you a fool for what you have showed. At least I have consistent parameters.

One of the crucial elements of making comparisons is ensuring all other parameters remain the same except for the one being tested, you did far from that, cutting off the hinge. The other evidence presented is consistent, and hinges are not cut off one side.

What you showed is not steering, it is incorrect tree felling violating accredited techniques and a disgrace that you should flaunt it as some method of controlling a fell.

I must admit I was gob smacked that after all the chest pounding and hype prior to this video being shown I witnessed what I did, an epic fail.

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dannyboysfc

Did that guy make a video showing how to f@#k up when felling a tree?

Eric Frei

Yeah, post 47 has a youtube link

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dannyboysfc

Hopefully now he realizes that he was wrong and doesn't teach others bad practices. Im not sure why you would even try this when you could just notch the tree to go where you want it in the first place. Trying to steer a falling tree by cutting through the holding wood(even just a little bit) can be disasterous and dangerous.

glennak

Well what a lot to read.
I thought ekka should have put in a tappered hinge in his video (not to change direction just to lower the chance of the hinge breaking) so I read on to see if I was the only one. Ekka complaining about Murphys video when he cuts through the hinge is a bit odd when he did the same thing to a palm!

What nobody has picked up on is that the width of the scarf is very important to direction. Once the scarf closes the hinge breaks so direction is up to gravity and momentum. So with a 45 deg scarf you have control only half the way down, and with a big back lean and a winch the tree may start to fall then snap the hinge and direction is guess work.

Eric Frei

Here we go. I'll put things into context.

In this post, the second video titled "piecuts2" the first palm had a severe tapered hinge, with just a tad of hinge left on one side.

The second palm I was seeing if there would be any turn by cutting the hinge out on one side as the tree was falling, as this was mentioned as another way of turning a tree as it is falling, refered to as "chasing it down". I do not recommend anywhere that doing that is right, very dangerous especially on large trees. The tree started falling on a typical piecut similar to the first tree and as it was going down I cut more hinge out from one side. Murphy made his back cut and stepped away, the hinge was cut out on one side 1/3 to 1/2 the diameter of the tree from the word go ... not a safe practice.

The first video "sidelean" puts the tree on the money, safely and accurately. It's about felling a side leaning tree and the methods are safe. The rest beyond that is speculation .... does a pie cut turn a tree, can it be used with accuracy etc? Well, that's where the other videos and evidence are coming from however they do have to have some conformity and cutting hinges out isn't really on.

I hope that puts it into context. I use and do train the tapered hinge adjusted gun technique, it's spot on. I hope you get it now rather than ragging on like some Hartley troll.

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glennak

I understand Ekka. Another way to do a leaning tree is a tombstone scarf not as good as a rope but a rope is not always possible (next to walls etc). I have played with cutting the hinge on the way down to turn trees goes well with young pines.
I watched a demo of an inverted tombstone type cut with no vertical cuts and a narrow scarf wedged up to straighten the tree then the tree felled at right angles to the previous scarf. Not something for beginners to try.