Instructional video from Germany

brainfart · 7th August 2007, 07:11 AM

Hi everyone.
Dunno if you might find this interesting, it's an instructional video from Germany detailing the "Kastenschnitt" (meaning box cut) technique, which is being taught here lately as a safe and somewhat idiot-proof way to very accurately aim falling trees.
Unfortunately it's in German and has no cool music

, but it should be pretty obvious what they are doing even if you don't understand the language.

http://www.ukh.de/ukh/versicherte-un...=kastenschnitt

Some of you might consider that too basic. But I like watching such videos, especially about techniques employed in other countries, so you might, too?

Ekka · 7th August 2007, 07:38 AM

Other than cutting off the buttress flare it's a bore cut felling technique usually used on forward leaners.

I see this technique being used a lot although it's not really necessary in many cases.

I see advantages of time to place wedges, and time to cut the rear strap so you determine when it's going to fall unlike conventional method where it just falls.

Maybe the safety people think that's better?

But it is certainly gaining popularity.

Thanks and welcome to Tree World.

I liked right at the start when the first guy got out, they soon made sure that the "Yobbo" element is not on.

Good video.

brainfart · 7th August 2007, 09:53 AM

> Other than cutting off the buttress flare it's a bore cut felling technique usually used on forward leaners.

The rectangular cross section is supposedly making aiming easier. It also reduces the tree diameter, producing a "cleaner" working area and helps with placing the cuts.

> Maybe the safety people think that's better?

Yes, definitely. That website belongs to an accident insurance provider.

RC1 · 7th August 2007, 11:48 AM

Its a shame we cant understand the voice-over because that appeared to be a quality video.

Although I didn't like the idea of starting the bore cut at the hinge and working back, especially if you're a less experienced operator. If the tip of the bar is even slightly out, there's a increased risk of cutting through hinge without even realising.

Also, before you start cutting away a buttress, be sure that the middle isn't rotten or you could be cutting away the only remaining 'sound' holding wood. A mallet/hammer can give you a pretty good indication of this.

For all I know these points are mentioned in the video, but for those of us who can't understand German and especially for those who are just starting out in the job, bore-cuts are by no means full proof, increase the risk of kick-back and can unecessarily over-complicate matters.

Definately one to practice and master, but you need to know your actually gaining something to justify the application.

Still, the video was most enjoyable, any more where that came from?

Ekka · 7th August 2007, 01:44 PM

Here's a dumb question.

What sort of trees were they? Seemed to be a man made forest but I wasn't familiar with those trees.

brainfart · 7th August 2007, 03:26 PM

> If the tip of the bar is even slightly out, there's a increased risk of cutting
> through hinge without even realising.

That's why he starts sawing well behind the hinge pointing the saw blade backwards, and then moved slowly forward while watching the tip of the saw blade on the other side.

> Still, the video was most enjoyable, any more where that came from?

Not on that site, but I'll post more when I come across other interesting instructional videos if you people don't mind.
I originally feared it might be too long for non-German speakers, with all that safety bullshit talk at the beginning...

> What sort of trees were they?

Not 100% sure, but they look like some beech species to me. Which is a very common tree around here, with a hard and heavy wood, very popular for furniture and an excellent firewood.

Some pictures:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fagus_sylvatica
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotbuche
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Beech

> Seemed to be a man made forest but I wasn't familiar with those trees.

Many of the forests look like that over here, due to centuries of exploitation, at least in the lowland areas. Not much wilderness left, unfortunately.

That's what the landscape looks around here in southern Germany:
http://www.hotzenwald.de/07-banner-haupt.jpg
http://www.hotzenwald.de/bildband/au...enpanorama.htm (attention, big panoramic picture)

RC1 · 8th August 2007, 10:04 AM

Yeah, my mistake, the operator was pretty careful not to cut through the hinge, although that bar was only just long enough!

I have to say though, I find that whole 'hammering wedges into the side' thing quite laughable. Your not going to stretch the holding wood/tail that you cut through at the end. At best you'll generate a slight lift but mostly wood distortion.

Ive seen a few high profile training providers promoting this technique for standard fellings, utter nonsense!

Admittedly it does have a hold and release value, which works great for leaning or pre-tensioned trees, but other that that it achieves nothing.

Anyhow, that's just my opinion Brainfart, what do you think?

Also, what's your background, what's the industry like in Germany and who are the main retailers. By the way, your English excellent. Cheers

Ekka · 8th August 2007, 01:53 PM

I'd say the wedging is more precautionary to prevent sit back and have them in place for when the strap is cut so you can hammer away if need be.

Same goes for the tongue and groove technique.

I'd say the industry in Germany would be quite regulated and professional.

RC1 · 8th August 2007, 03:15 PM

Put the wedge straight into the conventional back cut to create optimum lift and not where it simply won't fit. Keep it simple, and obvious.

Ekka · 8th August 2007, 06:46 PM

There was great discussion of the frequency of this technique compared to regular felling over at AS ... it appears to be getting more common. What also appeared common was the use of it where not neccessary ... just like that video, it wasn't a forward leaner that could barber chair. You'll see quite a few felling regular balanced trees and barrels with that method.

If indeed that was a video from an insurer in Germany then there appears to be a drift toward this practice.

Personally, regular technique is fast and easy.

Must be one of those fashion things.

For a novice operator I see greater chance of errors.

No discredit to Brainfart what so ever so dont take the critiquing personally, just guys who have been around a while will wonder why on many things. Perhaps we're old school now RC1?!

brainfart · 9th August 2007, 08:49 AM

> although that bar was only just long enough!

A big difference I noticed: all the new Stihls (and other saws) seem to be sold with longer bars in other countries, especially in the US. Must be a male thing

Just kidding.
Most people seem to prefer shorter bar lenghts over here.

> I'd say the wedging is more precautionary to prevent sit back and have them
> in place for when the strap is cut so you can hammer away if need be.

Yup. It's an instructional video for classroom use, so they of course selected an extra nice tree and did everything according to the book even though the wedge wasn't needed in this case.

> Same goes for the tongue and groove technique.

Funny, when I posted that video on a German site several people found that one too complicated.

> Also, what's your background,

I'm not a professional, I just enjoy felling trees.

> what's the industry like in Germany and who are the main retailers.

Stihl is clearly leading, then Husqvarna, Dolmar, Solo, in that order. All the other brands are pretty rare over here, since three of those chainsaw manufacturers are located in Germany. And then there are those 99 bucks Made in China tree insulters, usually seen in the hands of home owner amateurs who need to trim a branch or two.

Ekka · 9th August 2007, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brainfart

all the new Stihls (and other saws) seem to be sold with longer bars in other countries, especially in the US. Must be a male thing

Just kidding.
Most people seem to prefer shorter bar lenghts over here.

I too prefer shorter bar lengths, I have a 25" on a ms660 and 22" on ms460 and have no trouble at all felling trees up to double the bar length. However it could have a lot to do with the dia of trees felled and if you need to salami stick the log up.

brainfart · 10th August 2007, 06:06 AM

Another short instructional video. Maybe you'll like this one better?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DltGxhWwES4

cut-right · 8th March 2008, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brainfart

Another short instructional video. Maybe you'll like this one better?

YouTube - Bier Stihl Salle 2007

that was proper. Pop sound was perfect.

blair duncanson · 12th March 2008, 11:22 AM

Good video. Looks like they were working on Fagus sylvatica??Odd when i see the 'gob' cut being started on the horizontal. Commencing on the vertical means you can see when the horizontal meeting the vertical, true front hinge everytime. Finishing the fell, i was taught to come down on an angle as it keeps you in a safe zone incase the last splinter pings back. Difficult without diagrams. Perhaps if rot is suspected, gob can be cut before buttressing to give you a better idea of the extent of rot. Retained buttresses could help with an angled fell?
Just ideas, basics in vid i think were sound.
Cheers

7th August 2007, 07:11 AM	#1 (permalink)
brainfart Sappling Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Europe Posts: 10	Instructional video from Germany Hi everyone. Dunno if you might find this interesting, it's an instructional video from Germany detailing the "Kastenschnitt" (meaning box cut) technique, which is being taught here lately as a safe and somewhat idiot-proof way to very accurately aim falling trees. Unfortunately it's in German and has no cool music , but it should be pretty obvious what they are doing even if you don't understand the language. http://www.ukh.de/ukh/versicherte-un...=kastenschnitt Some of you might consider that too basic. But I like watching such videos, especially about techniques employed in other countries, so you might, too?

7th August 2007, 07:38 AM	#2 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,846	Other than cutting off the buttress flare it's a bore cut felling technique usually used on forward leaners. I see this technique being used a lot although it's not really necessary in many cases. I see advantages of time to place wedges, and time to cut the rear strap so you determine when it's going to fall unlike conventional method where it just falls. Maybe the safety people think that's better? But it is certainly gaining popularity. Thanks and welcome to Tree World. I liked right at the start when the first guy got out, they soon made sure that the "Yobbo" element is not on. Good video. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

7th August 2007, 01:44 PM	#5 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,846	Here's a dumb question. What sort of trees were they? Seemed to be a man made forest but I wasn't familiar with those trees. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

8th August 2007, 01:53 PM	#8 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,846	I'd say the wedging is more precautionary to prevent sit back and have them in place for when the strap is cut so you can hammer away if need be. Same goes for the tongue and groove technique. I'd say the industry in Germany would be quite regulated and professional. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

8th August 2007, 06:46 PM	#10 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,846	There was great discussion of the frequency of this technique compared to regular felling over at AS ... it appears to be getting more common. What also appeared common was the use of it where not neccessary ... just like that video, it wasn't a forward leaner that could barber chair. You'll see quite a few felling regular balanced trees and barrels with that method. If indeed that was a video from an insurer in Germany then there appears to be a drift toward this practice. Personally, regular technique is fast and easy. Must be one of those fashion things. For a novice operator I see greater chance of errors. No discredit to Brainfart what so ever so dont take the critiquing personally, just guys who have been around a while will wonder why on many things. Perhaps we're old school now RC1?! __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

7th August 2007, 09:53 AM	#3 (permalink)
brainfart Sappling Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Europe Posts: 10	> Other than cutting off the buttress flare it's a bore cut felling technique usually used on forward leaners. The rectangular cross section is supposedly making aiming easier. It also reduces the tree diameter, producing a "cleaner" working area and helps with placing the cuts. > Maybe the safety people think that's better? Yes, definitely. That website belongs to an accident insurance provider.

7th August 2007, 11:48 AM	#4 (permalink)
RC1 Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Macclesfield England Posts: 139	Its a shame we cant understand the voice-over because that appeared to be a quality video. Although I didn't like the idea of starting the bore cut at the hinge and working back, especially if you're a less experienced operator. If the tip of the bar is even slightly out, there's a increased risk of cutting through hinge without even realising. Also, before you start cutting away a buttress, be sure that the middle isn't rotten or you could be cutting away the only remaining 'sound' holding wood. A mallet/hammer can give you a pretty good indication of this. For all I know these points are mentioned in the video, but for those of us who can't understand German and especially for those who are just starting out in the job, bore-cuts are by no means full proof, increase the risk of kick-back and can unecessarily over-complicate matters. Definately one to practice and master, but you need to know your actually gaining something to justify the application. Still, the video was most enjoyable, any more where that came from?

7th August 2007, 03:26 PM	#6 (permalink)
brainfart Sappling Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Europe Posts: 10	> If the tip of the bar is even slightly out, there's a increased risk of cutting > through hinge without even realising. That's why he starts sawing well behind the hinge pointing the saw blade backwards, and then moved slowly forward while watching the tip of the saw blade on the other side. > Still, the video was most enjoyable, any more where that came from? Not on that site, but I'll post more when I come across other interesting instructional videos if you people don't mind. I originally feared it might be too long for non-German speakers, with all that safety bullshit talk at the beginning... > What sort of trees were they? Not 100% sure, but they look like some beech species to me. Which is a very common tree around here, with a hard and heavy wood, very popular for furniture and an excellent firewood. Some pictures: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fagus_sylvatica http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotbuche http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Beech > Seemed to be a man made forest but I wasn't familiar with those trees. Many of the forests look like that over here, due to centuries of exploitation, at least in the lowland areas. Not much wilderness left, unfortunately. That's what the landscape looks around here in southern Germany: http://www.hotzenwald.de/07-banner-haupt.jpg http://www.hotzenwald.de/bildband/au...enpanorama.htm (attention, big panoramic picture)

8th August 2007, 10:04 AM	#7 (permalink)
RC1 Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Macclesfield England Posts: 139	Yeah, my mistake, the operator was pretty careful not to cut through the hinge, although that bar was only just long enough! I have to say though, I find that whole 'hammering wedges into the side' thing quite laughable. Your not going to stretch the holding wood/tail that you cut through at the end. At best you'll generate a slight lift but mostly wood distortion. Ive seen a few high profile training providers promoting this technique for standard fellings, utter nonsense! Admittedly it does have a hold and release value, which works great for leaning or pre-tensioned trees, but other that that it achieves nothing. Anyhow, that's just my opinion Brainfart, what do you think? Also, what's your background, what's the industry like in Germany and who are the main retailers. By the way, your English excellent. Cheers

8th August 2007, 03:15 PM	#9 (permalink)
RC1 Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Macclesfield England Posts: 139	Put the wedge straight into the conventional back cut to create optimum lift and not where it simply won't fit. Keep it simple, and obvious.

9th August 2007, 08:49 AM	#11 (permalink)
brainfart Sappling Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Europe Posts: 10	> although that bar was only just long enough! A big difference I noticed: all the new Stihls (and other saws) seem to be sold with longer bars in other countries, especially in the US. Must be a male thing Just kidding. Most people seem to prefer shorter bar lenghts over here. > I'd say the wedging is more precautionary to prevent sit back and have them > in place for when the strap is cut so you can hammer away if need be. Yup. It's an instructional video for classroom use, so they of course selected an extra nice tree and did everything according to the book even though the wedge wasn't needed in this case. > Same goes for the tongue and groove technique. Funny, when I posted that video on a German site several people found that one too complicated. > Also, what's your background, I'm not a professional, I just enjoy felling trees. > what's the industry like in Germany and who are the main retailers. Stihl is clearly leading, then Husqvarna, Dolmar, Solo, in that order. All the other brands are pretty rare over here, since three of those chainsaw manufacturers are located in Germany. And then there are those 99 bucks Made in China tree insulters, usually seen in the hands of home owner amateurs who need to trim a branch or two.

10th August 2007, 06:06 AM	#13 (permalink)
brainfart Sappling Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Europe Posts: 10	Another short instructional video. Maybe you'll like this one better? http://youtube.com/watch?v=DltGxhWwES4

12th March 2008, 11:22 AM	#15 (permalink)
blair duncanson Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: argyll Posts: 86	Re: Instructional video from Germany Good video. Looks like they were working on Fagus sylvatica??Odd when i see the 'gob' cut being started on the horizontal. Commencing on the vertical means you can see when the horizontal meeting the vertical, true front hinge everytime. Finishing the fell, i was taught to come down on an angle as it keeps you in a safe zone incase the last splinter pings back. Difficult without diagrams. Perhaps if rot is suspected, gob can be cut before buttressing to give you a better idea of the extent of rot. Retained buttresses could help with an angled fell? Just ideas, basics in vid i think were sound. Cheers

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