Double Block Bucking

TrevMcRev · 14th May 2007, 12:44 AM

The main advantage for the stryken style is no need to cut up on the ground.
And with the soft wet ground he has(we sure dont!) and little groundcrew help it may be worth it.

In my typical case, I'd rig out logs if the dropzone was sensitive to damage. We work in a lot of manicured gardens, so often have to. But if i can let blocks fall to the ground they might as well be 2-4 times firewood sized blocks. Less work in the tree the better. So long as a groundcrew can keep up, no point making a too bigger pile of crap at the base.

jim1nz · 14th May 2007, 12:52 AM

Hey Stryken, i actually like the way you block spar pols down, you cut the first one then the second one which you can rest the saw in while you push the first block off and change position, then repeat.

Sean Freeman · 14th May 2007, 01:22 AM

We just don't have the trees up here that Streyken has, the only pines I've climbed were in the Gold Coast all the others I've experienced were in State Forestry. hen we block out the stem generally its to reach the point that it can be felled safely, so as Trev said its big pieces to get down to that point.

Even if we had those pines and Firs I don't think I could handle the saw like Streyken, he moved that 66 so easily I thought it was a 26, 46 max

!!! I think I need to go back to the gym!

Tim Craig · 14th May 2007, 01:37 AM

I work on many large Scots and Corsican Pines, Norway and Sitka Spruce, Western Red Cedar, Western Hemlock, Lawsons Cypress, Silver, Grand and Douglas Firs etc. Next to property or targets like fences, walls etc under the tree.

Options -

1. Rig it down (top stropping)

2. Rig the sections off another tree although the rigging point has to be high enough to allow for good control to avoid long swings, which would mean setting up a holding rope to counter-act the swing.

3. Fell the tree as soon as is practical, if the ground is wet make a landing pile from the branches or timber you've already removed from the tree. This also allows for easy bucking/crosscutting.

Alternatively in some situations I've used 8 x 4 plywood sheets with tyres on top to avoid ground damage, altough this is not always suitable for large trees. I've even heard of some people using soft furniture foam!

4. Crane it out

5. Take bigger sections than log size, 6 to 8ft or longer, make a landing crash barrier as before, use a pulling rope and get the ground guys to pull it over.

One of the biggest problems with blocking out is that in many situations you have to throw the piece into a drop zone, this involves lifting the log and rotating the spine to throw into a specific area. This causes compression of the lower vertibrate resulting in excessive wear over time, your cartilage will deteriorate and you will be left with chronic back pain.

I have a real problem with seeing climbers making more cuts than necessary, I also don't like seeing that kind of tree removal where the climber is manual hand holding everything puttin extra pressure on his body and mind while he is climbing. I know that there are times when it is unavoidable, but when climbing surely you have to find the safest and most efficient way of approaching your work.

Use your ground crew to the your greatest advantage, rig out big branches, instead of hundreds of hand held sections etc, that's what they are there for to make your life as a climber easier.

I try to avoid using big bars when they're not needed. Like in Streyken's video.

Climb safe people

JohN Dee · 14th May 2007, 03:44 AM

Streyken that is a very interesting technique, I may give it a go in the future but to ease my mind it'd probably be secondary tied in and chain braking.

Alot of palms I TD they have to be chunked down in firebox sizes like the ones in your vid, as soon as I find a palm that isn't compressed i'll give it a go.

Good job and video, keep safe mate.

Ekka · 14th May 2007, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Craig

I've even heard of some people using soft furniture foam!

Yeah, and I'll be foaming up the pool area on Thursday, me climbing, Jimbo dragging.

Now Jimbo has to test his reflexes and see if he's up to Brother Colins standard.

Ouch if your not!

Ekka · 14th May 2007, 06:13 AM

Oh yeah

Here you go, I found a video, now lets see ... it's called SOBfoams.

14.2mb WMV.

You'll see the hook in action.

You'll see me blocking and one handing a ms440

You'll see me one handing an 200T on seed pods.

And, if ya dont like it, dont do it.

Every, 100% of people I have employed or seen working palms have one handed ... every single one. And, unlike Stryken's lovely situation of having solid wood to block palm heads fall to pieces, so I get to catch those pieces with my free hand.

Still with me, wake up, have a look at the terrain.

We have formal manicured garden beneath ugly palms.

We have pavers set on sand bed, pavers crack and sink when bombed on.

We have a pool for wayward logs, fortunately in this instance it's not a liner pool.

We have a piss weak pergola roof right up close to the trunk, any bits falling out of the head would ding that.

Also, a huge disclaimer, it aint me.

I call it a SISSY FREE ZONE!

www.palmtreeservices.com.au/video/sobfoams.wmv

Streyken · 14th May 2007, 09:10 AM

Nice video Ekka. There's a huge difference between what some consider safe and "easy" compared to the reality of the tree and conditions your situation may present. I've seen other people bitch about it too, but 4-6 hours in spurs is a piece of cake. It is much easier being up a tree than on the ground as far as I'm concerned, which is why I try and be easy on my groundies. After the first year your feet and back stop hurting, and in 18 years I've never had a back problem - sore shoulders yes, but 8 hours of hedge trimming will do that.

Maybe a new pair of boots would help. I've seen guys climbing in $100.00 boots bought from Walmart! Spend the 500.00 and get a pair that will last.

Another problem I've seen is guys who don't do tree work consistently. A layoff of a 4 days or so and back at her hard again is sure to cause injuries.

I'll often use my 266 for bucking, the reason the ms660 was being used in the video is because I trashed the chain on the 266 a few days before and haven't had time to get new ones yet. Even the next 4 Saturdays are booked up - take it while it's there, right!

In the next few days I have one that I'll be able to bomb out 40' + chunks, if it's not pouring I'll be sure to get some video.

Question guys, why the second tie in? I use a second if the tree I'm working on is likely to fall over so I can swing to safety, but why is one needed while bucking a spar? I use 5/8 trawler cable and have NEVER had one cut or break - not even close. I have seen one cut into, but the saw was useless before even making its way half through.

Again good video Ekka, shows reality over fiction.

Streyken · 14th May 2007, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Also, a huge disclaimer, it aint me.

The characters portrayed are professional stunt men. Don't try this at home.

Ekka · 14th May 2007, 01:38 PM

The main reason for 2 attachment points on the spar is if you cut through or kick out.

If you kick out you'll go straight down so another choked rope etc will hold you.

The chances of you cutting through the cable you have is zero so for you situation a second tie in would mainly be for kick out.

That said, some say it's also to access the ground quickly. You could have a choked lifeline with a figure 8 decent device installed your prussic backing it up. Lets say you were blocking a hollow spar and got hammered by bees you could rappel to the ground. Now the probability of that in a pine like your doing is zero. Especially with the amount of small stub things likely to catch the flip line.

Also it doesn't state anywhere that your second tie in point must reach the ground.

I use 2 attachments in palms coz they're not so soft to stick ya spikes in and I have kicked out here and there. When blocking I'll use two lanyards. Palms also aren't a tapered dia nor have stubs so it would be a straight ride to ground.

Streyken · 14th May 2007, 03:41 PM

I do use two lanyards for tall whippy alders, same thing, if you kick out you're going straight to the ground. I usually just wrap my second lanyard twice around and leave it way loose. It then acts like a choke once pressure is applied. For the evergreens here, all you have to do is lean back and press one arm on your lanyard and you'll stop very quickly.

George Hayduke · 20th May 2007, 06:59 AM

If you fall onto a non-looped lanyard you won't have time to push on the lanyard to stop your fall. You're going to the ground. Then...where is all of the time saved using dangerous techniques? Gone...when you're recovering or dead.

not on my crew!

Streyken · 20th May 2007, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Hayduke

If you fall onto a non-looped lanyard you won't have time to push on the lanyard to stop your fall. You're going to the ground. Then...where is all of the time saved using dangerous techniques? Gone...when you're recovering or dead.

not on my crew!

On a D-fir of hemlock pole it won't happen, period. I've got video will post when I get a chance. And chances are here you'd be working for me.

Ekka · 20th May 2007, 01:29 PM

On palms I take two anythings depending what I'm doing ... that'd be an express ride to the ground.

Hey GW, what sort of trees you mainly cut?

Streyken · 21st May 2007, 09:18 AM

I?m sure GH was just having a bit of fun, as was I; our last posts combined are asinine and if he has the experience he states, he knows that as well. I posted for juxtaposition, but I don?t want anyone without experience getting the wrong idea. Generalities, sweeping statements and absolutes without contextual framework and specific application are just stupid, and some people take subtle sarcasm literally. No one can say what will or won?t work until they?ve been in a specific situation with a specific tree under specific conditions. I?ve never slid down a spar, nor do I know anyone who has, never had both spurs kick out while cutting and I?ve never slid more than a few feet while climbing, ever ? and I don?t believe in luck. My first reaction to any type of slip is to bend my knees slightly and lean back, the bark and lanyard take care of the rest, any pressure applied to the lanyard and you stop that much quicker, but most likely your spurs will dig in again; I know if I was doing palms, eucs, etc. this wouldn?t work, but it really is ingrained habit that has served me well here. If you?re talking about both spurs kicking out and being nowhere near the tree, I don?t even know how you?d get into that situation here without trying. I?ve climbed thousands and thousands and thousands of these poles with never a problem. Some days I?ll do as many as 9 removals of 100? + fir or hem, again, not luck.

I have a 60? tall 18? diameter hemlock snag I?ve got to bring down this week. Its top has been missing for years and all the branches have fallen off. It?s about a 15? swing from the nearest adjacent tree. I?ll be using two ropes, but no lanyard, as the snag has a good possibility of going over. Now it might seem common sense to say "always use a lanyard", but in this case it would be a big mistake. Every situation is unique, as is every area, which is why I like seeing how others do their job on this board.

JohN Dee · 22nd May 2007, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Streyken

I’ll be using two ropes, but no lanyard, as the snag has a good possibility of going over.

Is this the technique reffered to as DbRT? I use two ropes(Two TIP's), no lanyard up a tree when I do prune's...

14th May 2007, 12:44 AM	#26 (permalink)
TrevMcRev Astronaut Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 672	The main advantage for the stryken style is no need to cut up on the ground. And with the soft wet ground he has(we sure dont!) and little groundcrew help it may be worth it. In my typical case, I'd rig out logs if the dropzone was sensitive to damage. We work in a lot of manicured gardens, so often have to. But if i can let blocks fall to the ground they might as well be 2-4 times firewood sized blocks. Less work in the tree the better. So long as a groundcrew can keep up, no point making a too bigger pile of crap at the base. __________________ Melbourne Arborist, Total Tree Care, Pruning, Tree and Stump Removal

14th May 2007, 12:52 AM	#27 (permalink)
jim1nz Afterburner is shakin' Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Tauranga, New Zealand Posts: 296	Hey Stryken, i actually like the way you block spar pols down, you cut the first one then the second one which you can rest the saw in while you push the first block off and change position, then repeat. __________________ SPEED ALWAYS FOLLOWS TECHNIQUE

14th May 2007, 01:22 AM	#28 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,521	We just don't have the trees up here that Streyken has, the only pines I've climbed were in the Gold Coast all the others I've experienced were in State Forestry. hen we block out the stem generally its to reach the point that it can be felled safely, so as Trev said its big pieces to get down to that point. Even if we had those pines and Firs I don't think I could handle the saw like Streyken, he moved that 66 so easily I thought it was a 26, 46 max !!! I think I need to go back to the gym! __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

14th May 2007, 03:44 AM	#30 (permalink)
JohN Dee Astronaut Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 679	Streyken that is a very interesting technique, I may give it a go in the future but to ease my mind it'd probably be secondary tied in and chain braking. Alot of palms I TD they have to be chunked down in firebox sizes like the ones in your vid, as soon as I find a palm that isn't compressed i'll give it a go. Good job and video, keep safe mate. __________________ Climber with slow climbing speed, must make up with mighty chainsaw roar. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Red : Green : Blue

14th May 2007, 06:13 AM	#32 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,669	Oh yeah Here you go, I found a video, now lets see ... it's called SOBfoams. 14.2mb WMV. You'll see the hook in action. You'll see me blocking and one handing a ms440 You'll see me one handing an 200T on seed pods. And, if ya dont like it, dont do it. Every, 100% of people I have employed or seen working palms have one handed ... every single one. And, unlike Stryken's lovely situation of having solid wood to block palm heads fall to pieces, so I get to catch those pieces with my free hand. Still with me, wake up, have a look at the terrain. We have formal manicured garden beneath ugly palms. We have pavers set on sand bed, pavers crack and sink when bombed on. We have a pool for wayward logs, fortunately in this instance it's not a liner pool. We have a piss weak pergola roof right up close to the trunk, any bits falling out of the head would ding that. Also, a huge disclaimer, it aint me. I call it a SISSY FREE ZONE! www.palmtreeservices.com.au/video/sobfoams.wmv __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

14th May 2007, 01:37 AM	#29 (permalink)
Tim Craig Cruisin' Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 94	I work on many large Scots and Corsican Pines, Norway and Sitka Spruce, Western Red Cedar, Western Hemlock, Lawsons Cypress, Silver, Grand and Douglas Firs etc. Next to property or targets like fences, walls etc under the tree. Options - 1. Rig it down (top stropping) 2. Rig the sections off another tree although the rigging point has to be high enough to allow for good control to avoid long swings, which would mean setting up a holding rope to counter-act the swing. 3. Fell the tree as soon as is practical, if the ground is wet make a landing pile from the branches or timber you've already removed from the tree. This also allows for easy bucking/crosscutting. Alternatively in some situations I've used 8 x 4 plywood sheets with tyres on top to avoid ground damage, altough this is not always suitable for large trees. I've even heard of some people using soft furniture foam! 4. Crane it out 5. Take bigger sections than log size, 6 to 8ft or longer, make a landing crash barrier as before, use a pulling rope and get the ground guys to pull it over. One of the biggest problems with blocking out is that in many situations you have to throw the piece into a drop zone, this involves lifting the log and rotating the spine to throw into a specific area. This causes compression of the lower vertibrate resulting in excessive wear over time, your cartilage will deteriorate and you will be left with chronic back pain. I have a real problem with seeing climbers making more cuts than necessary, I also don't like seeing that kind of tree removal where the climber is manual hand holding everything puttin extra pressure on his body and mind while he is climbing. I know that there are times when it is unavoidable, but when climbing surely you have to find the safest and most efficient way of approaching your work. Use your ground crew to the your greatest advantage, rig out big branches, instead of hundreds of hand held sections etc, that's what they are there for to make your life as a climber easier. I try to avoid using big bars when they're not needed. Like in Streyken's video. Climb safe people

14th May 2007, 09:10 AM	#33 (permalink)
Streyken Fly'n Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 206	Nice one Ekka Nice video Ekka. There's a huge difference between what some consider safe and "easy" compared to the reality of the tree and conditions your situation may present. I've seen other people bitch about it too, but 4-6 hours in spurs is a piece of cake. It is much easier being up a tree than on the ground as far as I'm concerned, which is why I try and be easy on my groundies. After the first year your feet and back stop hurting, and in 18 years I've never had a back problem - sore shoulders yes, but 8 hours of hedge trimming will do that. Maybe a new pair of boots would help. I've seen guys climbing in $100.00 boots bought from Walmart! Spend the 500.00 and get a pair that will last. Another problem I've seen is guys who don't do tree work consistently. A layoff of a 4 days or so and back at her hard again is sure to cause injuries. I'll often use my 266 for bucking, the reason the ms660 was being used in the video is because I trashed the chain on the 266 a few days before and haven't had time to get new ones yet. Even the next 4 Saturdays are booked up - take it while it's there, right! In the next few days I have one that I'll be able to bomb out 40' + chunks, if it's not pouring I'll be sure to get some video. Question guys, why the second tie in? I use a second if the tree I'm working on is likely to fall over so I can swing to safety, but why is one needed while bucking a spar? I use 5/8 trawler cable and have NEVER had one cut or break - not even close. I have seen one cut into, but the saw was useless before even making its way half through. Again good video Ekka, shows reality over fiction. __________________ Trimmin' bush and caring for flowers is good 'n' all... but sometimes ya gotta let the big wood fly and pound the garden.

14th May 2007, 01:38 PM	#35 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,669	The main reason for 2 attachment points on the spar is if you cut through or kick out. If you kick out you'll go straight down so another choked rope etc will hold you. The chances of you cutting through the cable you have is zero so for you situation a second tie in would mainly be for kick out. That said, some say it's also to access the ground quickly. You could have a choked lifeline with a figure 8 decent device installed your prussic backing it up. Lets say you were blocking a hollow spar and got hammered by bees you could rappel to the ground. Now the probability of that in a pine like your doing is zero. Especially with the amount of small stub things likely to catch the flip line. Also it doesn't state anywhere that your second tie in point must reach the ground. I use 2 attachments in palms coz they're not so soft to stick ya spikes in and I have kicked out here and there. When blocking I'll use two lanyards. Palms also aren't a tapered dia nor have stubs so it would be a straight ride to ground. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

14th May 2007, 03:41 PM	#36 (permalink)
Streyken Fly'n Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 206	I do use two lanyards for tall whippy alders, same thing, if you kick out you're going straight to the ground. I usually just wrap my second lanyard twice around and leave it way loose. It then acts like a choke once pressure is applied. For the evergreens here, all you have to do is lean back and press one arm on your lanyard and you'll stop very quickly. __________________ Trimmin' bush and caring for flowers is good 'n' all... but sometimes ya gotta let the big wood fly and pound the garden. Last edited by Streyken : 14th May 2007 at 05:18 PM. Reason: spalling, I mean spelling

20th May 2007, 06:59 AM	#37 (permalink)
George Hayduke Banned Join Date: May 2007 Location: Slickrock, USA Posts: 93	If you fall onto a non-looped lanyard you won't have time to push on the lanyard to stop your fall. You're going to the ground. Then...where is all of the time saved using dangerous techniques? Gone...when you're recovering or dead. not on my crew!

20th May 2007, 01:29 PM	#39 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,669	On palms I take two anythings depending what I'm doing ... that'd be an express ride to the ground. Hey GW, what sort of trees you mainly cut? __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

21st May 2007, 09:18 AM	#40 (permalink)
Streyken Fly'n Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 206	I?m sure GH was just having a bit of fun, as was I; our last posts combined are asinine and if he has the experience he states, he knows that as well. I posted for juxtaposition, but I don?t want anyone without experience getting the wrong idea. Generalities, sweeping statements and absolutes without contextual framework and specific application are just stupid, and some people take subtle sarcasm literally. No one can say what will or won?t work until they?ve been in a specific situation with a specific tree under specific conditions. I?ve never slid down a spar, nor do I know anyone who has, never had both spurs kick out while cutting and I?ve never slid more than a few feet while climbing, ever ? and I don?t believe in luck. My first reaction to any type of slip is to bend my knees slightly and lean back, the bark and lanyard take care of the rest, any pressure applied to the lanyard and you stop that much quicker, but most likely your spurs will dig in again; I know if I was doing palms, eucs, etc. this wouldn?t work, but it really is ingrained habit that has served me well here. If you?re talking about both spurs kicking out and being nowhere near the tree, I don?t even know how you?d get into that situation here without trying. I?ve climbed thousands and thousands and thousands of these poles with never a problem. Some days I?ll do as many as 9 removals of 100? + fir or hem, again, not luck. I have a 60? tall 18? diameter hemlock snag I?ve got to bring down this week. Its top has been missing for years and all the branches have fallen off. It?s about a 15? swing from the nearest adjacent tree. I?ll be using two ropes, but no lanyard, as the snag has a good possibility of going over. Now it might seem common sense to say "always use a lanyard", but in this case it would be a big mistake. Every situation is unique, as is every area, which is why I like seeing how others do their job on this board. __________________ Trimmin' bush and caring for flowers is good 'n' all... but sometimes ya gotta let the big wood fly and pound the garden.