Cuban royal palm removal using undersized 18" bar on MS440 accurately

Eric Frei

Well, it was good, it was fun, and it was a good recording.

You know, so often I see people running around with like 30" bars on small 44's to git 'r' done! Heck, the saw shop sells plastic home-owner Stihls with 25" bars, I dont even have that on my 66

Just improve your saw skills, accuracy is not an issue really.

Anyway, this video is about 3.30mins long and 18.5mb WMV

www.palmtreeservices.com.au/video/cuban.wmv

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Kevin

Nice video and felling job.
You would be wasting energy using a small saw on a large tree.
Use the right tool for the job.

Grizzly

Ive been in that kind of a bind before and it was a real pain to drop that pine with out a kanger pushing it over. I ended up hooking chains to it and my truck. It ended up sliding off the stump before it got cought in the lawn and fell like a ton of bricks. So much for digging a hole for a small backyard pond.

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4stroke

Great video and a nice soundtrack

Tim Craig

Ekka,

Do you guys always start your notches off with the lower horizontal cut then go onto make the top angled cut down to meet it?

Over here we do the exact opposite, just wonder why you guys do it that way?

Thanks

TC

Eric Frei

Coz we're better.

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Kevin

Tim, do you know why it's done in the manner you describe?
It is the proper method.

Eric Frei

Dream on

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Tim Craig

I always assumed that it was because you can judge the direction of fell much better by doing the top cut first, you can see the sight lines on the saw(Husqvarna+Stihl). It also allows for a more comfortable hand position which in turn allows for more precise control of the saw and direction of fell.

Just seemed to make perfect sense when I was shown it.

Why do some people do the undercut first?

TC

Tim Craig

Accuracy is a big issue for me.

Accurate cuts mean precise felling.

Does that foam really work as a protective barrier?

I use plywood with tyres on top.

TC

Kevin

Tim;
It allows the top to drop off the spar faster decreasing the bending moment on the spar.
I use an open face on those most of the time.

For real accuracy on the ground I use gunning sticks to mark the corners of the notch.

TREE-SURFER

I love you Ekka.

I find it alot more accurate to place the bottom cut first and then drop in from the top to make the felling cut; Even though when I done my NPTC's it is the reverse ("The proper way") . I suppose you establish what is best and better for yourself. I'm pretty sure Ekka and the boys would criticise me on my climbing ways, like not using a wire core flipper, or not wearing a skid lid when installing my lines when making my primary climb....Every 1 is different.

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Isle of Man Tree Surgeon| All Aspects of Tree Work

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Eric Frei

Some put the flat cut first, some put the angle, some do a conventional notch, some do a humboldt, some people open it up real wide etc.

Forestry fellers tend to put the angle in first, I work with one here occasionally and that's what they were taught.

When we did our course we were told neither is absolutely correct over the other but do what works for you. I have been cutting doing the flat one first for so long it's spot on.

But you still use the gunning sights on the saw. You'll notice many people of either persuasion also lie the saw in the notch flat then check by looking down the gunning sights.

Also, I cut a lot of my scarfs from standing at the front of the tree, and same when I'm up a tree. Surprisingly I have done so many of them they're pretty bang on by tracing the gunning sight over my left shoulder. You simply cannot in all circumstances cut a notch comfortably from behind.

Tim, when I wrote this, I mean if you improve your saw skills accuracy isn't an issue coz it comes with practice, to me cutting with an undersize bar ... I fear not to be accurate coz I know I will be. Yes, perhaps I could have worded it better (accuracy is not really an issue if you improve your saw skills to gain it)but the idea is if you can be well accomplished in many situations you'll be a better sawyer for it.

Some guys simply are stuffed when the bar cant deal with the tree in one easy swoop. However if you were production felling that's a different story. I like to shake it up a bit, also the largest bar I have is a 25" on a 66, and I aint been caught out yet but I am in suburbia.

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Tim Craig

Kevin,

I think you misunderstood my first post re notches, I was refering to order of the cuts of the notch, I was taught Top cut 1st, Undercut 2nd, felling cut 3 rd.

What the guy did in Ekka's video was Undercut 1st, Top cut 2nd, felling cut 3rd.

Why did the guy do the undercut 1st?

I agree with you re angles of notches for different situations.

When felling at ground level, I almost always go for a 60 degree cut, as this allows for more control if the hinge holds long enough, I am normally felling decidous hardwood species which are not evenly balanced straight poles like spruce. Also, i am nearly always felling in tight areas with not much room for error.

I used to use 45 degree notches for felling until i noticed the hinges were breaking too early and the tree began to go whichever way it was weighted.

I'm having much more success the last few years with the 60 degree cut.

I do this by making the normal 45 degree top cut 1st then on the undercut I make the cut about 15 degrees to come up and meet where the top cut ended.

When climbing, it varies from extreme closed notches to wide open notches(yelling mouth).

Eric Frei

See, we weren't, we were allowed individual freedom and flair but it had to be right, no overcuts, no Dutchman, lined up straight and level etc.

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Tim Craig

Ok, I'll let it go.

Tim Craig

Changed my mind about letting it go.

Is the 'individual freedom and flair' method something we should be should advocating for new trainees who have never felled a tree in their lives?

If I was training an apprentice arborist I would tell them to make the top cut 1st as this allows them to see the direction of fell better as they make the cut.

Eric Frei

That's because you mind has been boxed, similar with many places where years of doing the same thing has made it apparently right and proper.

Your mind cannot cope with alternatives and options in this instance and what you consider right for you may not be for others. It's just options and if some-one is naturally cutting them better my way why stuff them up?

New guys, who have never used a saw before, I would show both ways and let them decide, they'll adopt the one that suits them and make good with it. We dont cut humboldts here, that's a whole different topic.

It's almost like the "your either with us or against us attitude", who cares, either way the end result is the same.

Prove it, this I believe is an opinion not validated fact.

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Kevin

It doesn't really matter which cut is first, the tree can be gunned either way.
The old way (here) was to make the bottom cut first .
The advantage to making the top cut first is you can watch the progression of the bar in the bottom cut and actually see when it makes contact with the top cut in a conventional notch.

Eric was making a conventional cut in taking out that top, not the best way to take out a top.

Tim Craig

Why not?

Looked fine to me.

Eric Frei

Kevin has a point and I do vary the angle of top cuts ... hmmm, I like this, keeps you on your toes.

Here you go ...

This situation was a good one to show what goes through the fallers mind.

I had to make sure ....

1/ The butt did not hit first.

2/ That the butt did not come back as it may have gone pool side and done damage if the head hit to deep first.

In the picture attached you'll see the lawn area right up the the white gravel is slightly higher than the pool. That had to cop the pounding of the section I cut.

If the mouth of the scarf was open too wide the head may have hit to steep and the butt come back, go poolside and brake the coping. If the mouth was too shallow, the butt would have come down first and again the tons of weight impacting close to the pool.

Here's a pic of the lay of the land, notice how where the pool is it is a little lower.

Attached Thumbnails

 

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Tim Craig

As you stand making your undercut first using the pulling chain you are too busy looking the wrong way.

Wheras when the top cut is made first you can set the direction of fell and position the saw letting it it just drop nicely into the stem. In fact if the saw is sharp you don't even need to apply any pressure. It's a more natural and relaxing way to make a felling cut.

You sound like your really happy with the undercut 1st.

Kevin

Eric;
You want the top off as soon as possible creating the least bending moment.
Using a conventional notch keeps the top on the tree longer.

For your pool side tree I may have opted for an open face leaving the tree on the stump but I don't know if that works with Palms.

Tim Craig

I reckon it was exactly the right choice of cut to make in that situation.

If you take into consideration that the palm was only falling a relatively short distance then it was definately the correct angle of cut.

Tim Craig

Kevin, by 'conventional' do you mean a 45 degrees angled notch?

Kevin

Tim;
This link illustrates the cuts...

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logg...s/notches.html

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logg..._top_cuts.html

Try these new links

Sean Freeman

Ekka, I watched nearly all of your vids and read most of your posts here and elsewhere about falling trees, so I have the opinion that you are a very skillful tree faller. I don't question for a moment that when you cut your scarf starting top or bottom you constantly check the cut matches the intended direction of the fall.
Like some of the others posting in this thread I was taught to make the initial cut from the top using the sighting line on the saw to aid accuracy in the intended direction of fall, I have cut scarfs the other way and all has been good, but for 95% of my falls the bottom horizontal cut goes in after the top angled cut. Using the sighting lines is something I do on the ground, in the tree with a top handled saw its not so simple.

On a not so different tack check out this forestry falling vid from Sweden its great.

TREE-SURFER

"Horses for Courses";

Tim, what I think Ekka is trying to say (and myself), is that different trees in different circumstances follow a different course of action. Don't get me wrong, I was taught to cut down 1st and then in to meet the 1st cut to make the scarf, but I find that it easier to make this cut in reverse, if you will. Making the top cut secondary, allows you to justify your angle of hinge a little bit easier. That is to say, how and where YOU want it to fall. I think. Like I said, when I was taught, it was in a forest near cumbria felling small sitca spruce. These were relatively straight standing and only stood 50foot max. So making the top cut first, was the only option.

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Isle of Man Tree Surgeon| All Aspects of Tree Work

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Tim Craig

Ok, I think I know what you are saying, I'm not so dogmatic in my views re felling.

When I make a directional felling notch I sometimes have to adjust the direction because I was slightly out with the initial top cut, so I will re-cut the top cut after the undercut has been made.

Which is similar to what you guys are doing in the 1st instance.

But I will never re-cut the undercut as a way of adjusting the direction of fell.

See what I mean?

TREE-SURFER

No probs Tim.
Try it on the next good one you get to fell. You will see the difference.

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Isle of Man Tree Surgeon| All Aspects of Tree Work

What experts say about TOPPING