UK School Tree Madness - Cambridge Under Fives Roundabout Pre-School

Eric Frei · 3rd February 2009, 07:51 PM

Following the Monkey Puzzle Tree fiasco comes another similar but with a different twist.

This time around the Cambridge Council arborist (Diana Oviatt-Ham) thinks children should not play beneath trees as they'll compact the soil.

Have they not heard of mulch or other permeable anti-compaction surfaces?

In this playground in Brisbane you'll see no worries with lots of traffic and mulch working a treat.

Council seeks to ban nursery children from playing under tree - Telegraph

Quote:

Officers are applying for a permanent preservation order on the 30-year-old cedar to safeguard it from damage.

Parents have called for common sense and say that the children - aged two to four - exert too little pressure to cause any harm and will be too restricted in where they can play if they are not allowed under the tree.

The move follows a Cambridge City Council report into the health of the tree at the Under Fives Roundabout Pre-School in Cambridge.

The report argues the tree, which covers half the playground, will suffer if the ground is "poached and compacted" by "constant activity" which could stop water reaching the roots.

It recommends: "Ideally, the children would not be able to play beneath the tree."

Poached ground is commonly caused by cattle cutting up grassland with their hooves near gates and feeding points, exposing the soil leaving it open to erosion.

The council served a tree preservation order on the school on June 9, 2008.

A planning committee meeting will be held tomorrow (Wed) to hear objections and decide whether to confirm or reject the order.

The pre-school moved to its current site on the grounds of a primary school in September. Previously the tree was outside school grounds by a public footpath.

Eileen Hori, chairman of the nursery's management committee and parent, said the tree is now better protected than ever.

"Before the tree had branches broken off and was played under and climbed on by children and adults," she said. "People littered on it, dogs and cats went to the toilet on it and tramps slept under it - and yet the tree still thrived.

"The tree is beautiful and a great asset to the school. We are taking care to protect it whilst enjoying it."

Mrs Hori said the pre-school has a maximum of 34 pupils with no more than 12 playing outside at anyone time.

She added: "It's utterly ridiculous to restrict the kids like this. They will have a tiny amount of space to play in."

As a compromise the pre-school wants to sow the ground under the tree with flowers and use it as a quiet area where children can listen to stories.

David Hargreaves, vice-chairman of the pre-school's management committee, said it is happy to protect the tree but does not want "harsh restrictions" on action.

He added: "It's deeply frustrating. We don't think two and three year olds are going to exert too much pressure. We just want the children to be able to enjoy the tree."

The council's principal arboricultural officer Diana Oviatt-Ham said the children could compact the earth and starve the roots of water.

"They were advised right from the start when they were interested in the site that there were going to be constraints on the use of the tree," she said.

She said that if the order is upheld council planning officers will work with the school to agree on exact restrictions.

Mrs Oviatt-Ham added: "If the order is upheld we hope we will be able to reach a satisfactory compromise as to how the area is used."

The council report also warns the tree might need to be trimmed if children are allowed to play underneath.

It states: "In addition, cedar trees shed spiky needles and exude resin, which could result in complaints from parents and an application to trim the tree to reduce the nuisance."

David Howarth, Liberal Democrat MP for Cambridge, who lives near the pre-school, said: "Children have played underneath trees for centuries without serious harm coming to either. I am sure some sensible arrangement can be reached."

Cedar trees are coniferous and closely related to Firs. They are native to the mountains of the western Himalaya and the Mediterranean region.

They typically grow up to between 30m to 40m. The leaves are evergreen and needle-like.

Another news link. Cambridge News Home - Young could be banned from playing near tree

Eric Frei · 3rd February 2009, 07:57 PM

Now here's the councils online complaint form.

Complaint form

Now WTF sort of council asks this type of question on their forms?

Quote:

*How would you describe your ethnic origin?

White - British
White - Irish
White - Other
Black or Black British - Caribbean
Black or Black British - African
Black or Black British - Other
Mixed - White and Black Caribbean
Mixed - White and Black African
Mixed - White and Asian
Mixed - Other
Asian or Asian British - Indian
Asian or Asian British - Pakistani
Asian or Asian British - Bangladeshi
Asian or Asian British - Other
Chinese British
Other:

*Do you have a disability?
Yes
No

I have never ever seen something so unusual, I feel it's like going backwards some 100 years, talk about some type of categorization going on here, bordering on either racism or discrimination.

Anyway, fill it in and send them off a link to this thread.

Here's a copy of mine. By the way for the ethnic question I ticked other and wrote "none of your stuck up business"

Quote:

Your complaint concerning Parks and playgrounds has been submitted.

You said

In this thread on a public forum we're looking at how your arborist (Diana Oviatt-Ham) assessed a tree. UK School Tree Madness - Cambridge Under Fives Roundabout Pre-School Also, what are you people a bunch of racist white Brits? Fancy asking about ethnic origin, as if that matters! Lordy, get your act together!!

Read the thread, look to mulch the area or even hi-tech permeable rubber mats are used in parks here. I cannot believe in this day and age an arborist would be make such a ridiculous request considering the age of the tree and weight of the kids. Rid your online form of ethnic and disability questions!

Thank you for contacting us. A copy of the information you have submitted has been sent to the email address you specified in the form.

Your form has been submitted to the appropriate department and you will be contacted shortly.

Cambridge City Council Customer Services

Here's the schools website
Under Fives Roundabout Pre-School

I have also emailed the school.

treefeller · 4th February 2009, 03:23 AM

I know, Surley she would know about various mulches that will help reduce compaction, i think its a pretty lame excuse to put a tpo on a tree. As for the Ethnic survey unfortunatly over here thay have to be filled whether its for a job application,applying for a drivers license or just a survey. as you i dont agree with them either.,

Eric Frei · 4th February 2009, 06:11 AM

I've had a reply from the school to an email.

Any ideas and suggestions guys now is the time!

Quote:

Hello Eric,

Thank you very much for your support! We’re delighted with all offers of help of course J. The TPO is going before committee tomorrow morning – we have a 3 minute slot in which to appeal for common sense. We would be very grateful for any pointers on what we should include. As you know we’re all for protecting the tree and enjoying it as part of our garden, we just don’t want harsh restrictions placed upon us that may mean the children cannot play under it.

Many many thanks again for your support.

Best wishes

Lisa Bailey

Eric Frei · 4th February 2009, 06:31 AM

Again, here's a pic of mulched playground area.

This avenue of Ficus Benjamina was planted 1874 and is a common walkway through a park to the university, again a mulched walkway, very difficult to compact yet very inviting. The 2 pictures below were taken April 2008 after the trees endured 3 years of drought, the worst drought on record for 100 years.

This picture shows some understory planting, it's important to have shade tolerant smaller plants and low density planting, I often recommend no more that perhaps 1 plant per 1m2 but it does vary according to each location and species. It's important to realise that understory plantings are competitors to the tree for resources so choose things which do not take over like some ground covers and spreading/suckering plants do. Dig holes carefully by hand so the tree's roots aren't damaged, also keep away from the immediate trunk perhaps 1.5m with smaller plantings. You need to ensure the trees roots and trunk aren't damaged, do not mulch up the trunk of the tree, leave say 0.2m soil, this ensures no collar rot.

Again there is no reason why seating cannot be incorporated.

Regarding the shedding of spikey material, read the Monkey Puzzle (far worse tree for spikes) thread, Swansea council tried that rubbish too. You need to bring that outcome to the table also so these people see that for people to interact with the environment there's always some level of minor risk like stubbing a toe on a footpath or treading on stones while walking barefoot at the beach. A simple policy of children wearing their sunsmart hats when under the tree would suffice.

UK Arborists| Tree ambiguity| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross Lane

Sean Freeman · 4th February 2009, 07:13 AM

As Eric has indicated there are many different solutions to the potential conflict between the desire to the use and access the area under the tree and the known requirements for healthy growth of the roots of the tree.

You are only really limted by your imagination and your budget.

Very hard to believe that any council tree officer worth their salt would not be able to provide a win-win outcome for the tree and the kids.

Jeff Darby · 4th February 2009, 02:42 PM

The options go on, What about a small wooden platform suported by peers you could have seats aswell for the children to sit on and not hurt the roots or compact the ground under the tree!

Hopefully common sence will prevail here

Eric Frei · 4th February 2009, 07:45 PM

Received an email from David, the guy who's like the ham in the sandwich.

Quote:

I'd be very grateful if you could clarify a couple of points:

- Are all TPOs of a standard form, or are they individually worded for the specific circumstances of the tree, describing what can and what cannot be done?

- At the planning meeting tomorrow, councillors can apparently confirm, not confirm or amend the TPO - what form can amendments take (especially if TPOs have a standard form?)

- Does a TOP grant the council any specific powers to control the use of the site, and place specific restrictions on the use - for example prohibiting children for using the area under the tree, mandating fencing the tree off, or requiring us to plant prickly plants to deter children from using the area under the tree?

Any help you could provide would be gratefully received!

TPO's sadly vary council to council, there's differences in consistency and how they work.

Generally speaking a TPO (Tree Protection Order) protects a tree from either being cut down, trimmed or built upon.

However in certain circumstances the tree can have specific treatment mandated by councils, yes ... at their whims but generally speaking for the benefit of the tree.

What in essence a council wants is the tree to live and thrive. Simply protecting a tree in the past hasn't done it's job in private residences as the trees can be ignored, have root areas driven over and compacted etc.

So, what they'll be looking for is a plan that ensures longevity of the tree that withstands scrutiny.

Sean Freeman · 4th February 2009, 09:11 PM

If it were me I would try to engage the council tree officer in discussing the available options for this tree.

If there is no clear means to do this then try presenting the problem to a whole range of tree officers on the ???? forum. You will get advice from people who are charged with interpreting and enforcing TPO's every day.

Eric Frei · 6th February 2009, 06:00 AM

They had their meeting and some progress.

Quote:

Hi Eric,

Thanks for the email.

So the Tree Preservation Order was confirmed by the Planning Committee yesterday - however, there was some reasonable news for us. The Councillors discussed what a TPO actually covers / allows / prohibits, and it was confirmed (and I hope will be minuted) that a TPO should not be used to preclude people (particularly children) from going under or playing under a tree.

We have a separate issue to resolve, in that we are trying to discharge our final planning condition regarding landscaping - and the Principal Arboricultural Officer is reluctant to discharge the condition until we do some planting under the tree to 'deter' children from playing there. We are now trying to reach a compromise on this issue.

Thanks for your interest - and please feel free to following up with any other questions ...

Best regards,
David.

They still have to get around under planting issue, seems the council want under planting to deter kids from access, I would say less dense under planting with 10cm of mulch would be better for the tree, even better would be pier and beam deck or walkway, surely with the two combinations there'd be a compromise.

Also there are bio-decompaction agents, mychorrizal fungi etc which can be used to treat the area if required. Perhaps an initial treatment as a drench prior to mulching in the first instance followed by regular re-application and mulch top ups. Re-application of soil treatment could be done with a wand or spear so the mulch surface remains untreated.

treefeller · 6th February 2009, 10:29 AM

d say, underplanting with pier decking, stratigicaly placed seating would make the area more enjoyable for the kids. The soil wont be compacted therefore minimal damage to the root system and everyones happy. When the council arborist says plant to deter the kids, what with, plants with thorns and spikes, as this would do more damage tahn good

Eric Frei · 6th March 2009, 07:11 PM

In this Australian story an old cafe and it's deck surrounds a large tree. Now after 3 decades some geniuses have suggested that it all be removed ...

Story:Carriage Cafe | Fremantle residents fight to save iconic cafe

Quote:

The council also says it's worried about the health of the pines surrounding the cafe but, according to arborist reports, the decking of the cafe may actually protect the roots of the trees more than those growing elsewhere in the park.

''[The arborists] are recommending that they are the healthiest in the park; they've been living in harmony with the carriage for the last 30 years,'' Mr Smith said.

The deck is permeable, it reduces compaction, shades the soil ... darn good in fact and I often recommend decking around tree root zones where traffic could be a concern.

4th February 2009, 03:23 AM	#3
treefeller Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: aaa Posts: 224	Re: UK School Tree Madness - Cambridge Under Fives Roundabout Pre-School I know, Surley she would know about various mulches that will help reduce compaction, i think its a pretty lame excuse to put a tpo on a tree. As for the Ethnic survey unfortunatly over here thay have to be filled whether its for a job application,applying for a drivers license or just a survey. as you i dont agree with them either.,

4th February 2009, 06:31 AM	#5
Eric Frei Admin - Owner Palm & Tree Services in Brisbane Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,994	Re: UK School Tree Madness - Cambridge Under Fives Roundabout Pre-School Again, here's a pic of mulched playground area. This avenue of Ficus Benjamina was planted 1874 and is a common walkway through a park to the university, again a mulched walkway, very difficult to compact yet very inviting. The 2 pictures below were taken April 2008 after the trees endured 3 years of drought, the worst drought on record for 100 years. This picture shows some understory planting, it's important to have shade tolerant smaller plants and low density planting, I often recommend no more that perhaps 1 plant per 1m2 but it does vary according to each location and species. It's important to realise that understory plantings are competitors to the tree for resources so choose things which do not take over like some ground covers and spreading/suckering plants do. Dig holes carefully by hand so the tree's roots aren't damaged, also keep away from the immediate trunk perhaps 1.5m with smaller plantings. You need to ensure the trees roots and trunk aren't damaged, do not mulch up the trunk of the tree, leave say 0.2m soil, this ensures no collar rot. Again there is no reason why seating cannot be incorporated. Regarding the shedding of spikey material, read the Monkey Puzzle (far worse tree for spikes) thread, Swansea council tried that rubbish too. You need to bring that outcome to the table also so these people see that for people to interact with the environment there's always some level of minor risk like stubbing a toe on a footpath or treading on stones while walking barefoot at the beach. A simple policy of children wearing their sunsmart hats when under the tree would suffice. UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross Lane Attached Thumbnails __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Palm and Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

4th February 2009, 07:13 AM	#6
Sean Freeman Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,981	Re: UK School Tree Madness - Cambridge Under Fives Roundabout Pre-School As Eric has indicated there are many different solutions to the potential conflict between the desire to the use and access the area under the tree and the known requirements for healthy growth of the roots of the tree. You are only really limted by your imagination and your budget. Very hard to believe that any council tree officer worth their salt would not be able to provide a win-win outcome for the tree and the kids.

4th February 2009, 02:42 PM	#7
Jeff Darby Moderator - Previously known as JayD Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: TreeWorld, Sydney Australia Posts: 2,059	Re: UK School Tree Madness - Cambridge Under Fives Roundabout Pre-School The options go on, What about a small wooden platform suported by peers you could have seats aswell for the children to sit on and not hurt the roots or compact the ground under the tree! Hopefully common sence will prevail here __________________ Member: Australian Tree Association Join the Australian Tree Association...Have your voice heard ! Arboriculture, A life long study for some, a passing phase for others © Jeffrey J Darby 2011 Last edited by Jeff Darby; 4th February 2009 at 07:12 PM.

4th February 2009, 09:11 PM	#9
Sean Freeman Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,981	Re: UK School Tree Madness - Cambridge Under Fives Roundabout Pre-School If it were me I would try to engage the council tree officer in discussing the available options for this tree. If there is no clear means to do this then try presenting the problem to a whole range of tree officers on the ???? forum. You will get advice from people who are charged with interpreting and enforcing TPO's every day.

6th February 2009, 10:29 AM	#11
treefeller Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: aaa Posts: 224	Re: UK School Tree Madness - Cambridge Under Fives Roundabout Pre-School d say, underplanting with pier decking, stratigicaly placed seating would make the area more enjoyable for the kids. The soil wont be compacted therefore minimal damage to the root system and everyones happy. When the council arborist says plant to deter the kids, what with, plants with thorns and spikes, as this would do more damage tahn good

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Chatswood Hills State School Tree Issues\| NT school tree kills boy and were advised!	Eric Frei	General Tree Chat	151	27th February 2011 01:09 PM
Help stop school tree topping	playfordtree	Ask an Arborist here	52	6th August 2010 01:21 PM
ID Old school chipper	treevet	Tree machinery and equipment	22	3rd March 2010 07:11 AM
UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross Lane	Eric Frei	ANNOUNCEMENTS	45	4th February 2009 05:02 PM
Trees at school	playfordtree	Picture Forum	4	2nd November 2007 02:33 PM