UK Arborists| Tree ambiguity| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross Lane

Ekka · 17th May 2008, 08:50 AM

It appears the Swansea Council has managed to get an arborist report to condemn as dangerous a perfectly normal healthy tree.

Housewife campaigns to save monkey puzzle tree - icWales

Quote:

Housewife campaigns to save monkey puzzle tree

May 17 2008 by Robin Turner, Western Mail

A NATURE-LOVING housewife is leading a campaign to save a monkey puzzle tree which experts have branded “dangerous”.

One expert hired by Swansea Council which is considering chopping down the 150-year-old tree claims spines on cones from the monkey puzzle are as sharp as “syringe needles”.

And the expert’s report warns: “The fruit could be a potential pedestrian or vehicular hazard when falling.”

The report also warns the council could be held liable if anyone was hurt by falling needles.

The monkey puzzle tree (Araucaria araucana) is just a few hundred yards from singer Bonnie Tyler’s seafront home at West Cross, Swansea.

It is on the site of Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross Lane, which is due to open in a few months.

But West Cross resident Carol Crafer, 49, says the council’s assertions that the tree is dangerous are “laughable”.

She said: “Trees soften the landscape and are a beautiful, natural addition to any neighbourhood.

“Everything possible should be done to save them but it seems the council are prepared to listen to anything which could lead to it being pulled down.”

The future of the West Cross monkey puzzle tree will reach a crisis point in June when Swansea’s planning committee will consider evidence from people on both sides of the argument.

Mrs Crafer says the monkey puzzle tree represents part of Swansea’s heritage.

She said: “When Swansea’s sailors rounded the horn as part of the copper trade, these trees started being brought back from South America.

“That’s why you see so many of them in maritime places like Swansea... to cut them down would be sacrilege.”

She added local historians estimated the tree would have been planted 150 years ago, shortly after the death of the Duke of Wellington when Queen Victoria was still in her 30s.

Gower MP Martin Caton said: “I urge everyone who cares about the quality of their environment to protest against this council plan.”

There's no mention of decay, defects, dead wood etc just of the tree being what it is and using that to get rid of it.

This raises questions of why they didn't accomodate the tree correctly in their planning?

Also why they cannot create a TPZ or make the area safer.

this is swansea - news, entertainment, jobs, homes and cars

According to what this guy says the tree is protected.

Quote:

PLEASE DO NOT CUT TREE

09:00 - 04 March 2008

As a regular visitor to Swansea, I was distressed to read in the Evening Post of the council's plan to cut down the Monkey Puzzle tree in West Cross.This species is endangered and it is illegal to cut them down. The International Cites (Convention on International Trade in Endangered species) listed the Monkey Puzzle tree (Araucaria araucana) in the highest category of those immediately threatened with biological extinction.

The residents of Swansea, particularly the young, would be deprived of admiring this beautiful tree which, if felled, would be irreplaceable.

Douglas Hall

Pool Drive

Doncaster

In June the outcome may be known, if you know anyone in the area or can keep this updated it would be great.

Quote:

The future of the West Cross monkey puzzle tree will reach a crisis point in June when Swansea’s planning committee will consider evidence from people on both sides of the argument.

But seeing first hand the fiasco would be the best, from what I read it stinks!

Roller · 17th May 2008, 03:14 PM

Not much you can say to that, except we live in very funny times.I had the local council bod advise me to take my plum tree down in case the fruit created a slip hazard on a public foot path it over hangs.

I told her to go and get stuffed..........

vitex42 · 17th May 2008, 04:00 PM

Bunya bunya is Araucaria bidwillii and not Araucaria araucana as reported above....

Some big ones in Auckland and the cones are absolutely alarming in size and weigh about half a kilo. If they hit you they'd kill ya.

Trouble is, the tree isn't 'hazardous' unless you're inside the fall zone of the cones. The question is, can the tree be isolated from pedestrians (e.g. by putting a fence around it in cone years)? They don't seem to set cones every year.

Follow this link: the cones are bigger than pineapples!

Woods: Araucaria

I think this tree should be saved, but if so you have to do something about the cones (either prune them off or fence the tree)

Roller · 17th May 2008, 04:10 PM

I've never ever seen a monkey puzzle set a fruit/cone in this country..

Ekka · 17th May 2008, 04:17 PM

Personally I think they built something as there's mention of that opening and pedestrians and failed to allocate room for the tree or cut it down back then.

This is a cock up by council. I'd just love to see a pic and what's going on, considering it's a 150year old maybe healthy tree.

Even if it's a Bunya as long as your out of the drip line your OK.

As far spikey foliage, well crown lift it you bloody wankers.

As far as shedding dead spikey foliage, mulch garden beneath or mow the bloody lawn you wankers.

We got Bunyas here, even in the Bot Gardens for crying out loud. Mulch, garden, fancy fence like even rope etc and signs. This isn't rocket science.

vitex42 · 17th May 2008, 04:24 PM

The irony is people hang around buildings with scaffold around them every day and they don't complain about the hazard (even when there's a good chance of being nutted by a dropped hammer).....

Cutting down a tree because it drops leaves is just stupid.

If it was a 150 year old building they'd be screaming!

Ekka · 23rd May 2008, 04:25 PM

More out now with pics.

150-year-old Monkey puzzle tree facing chop because needles are 'like syringes' | Mail Online

Quote:

One expert likened the effect of the needles to being pricked by a hypodermic syringe.

‘Every effort is made in this day and age to prevent children playing with discarded syringe needles,’ a report stated.

‘Every effort must be made to prevent children coming into contact with these potentially, equally sharp needles.’

Quote:

‘The tree is part of the local landscape and has been for a century and a half. It rarely sheds its foliage and there are plenty of volunteers here who would be happy to clear up the needles.’

‘We have put this to the test by trying to prick ourselves with the needles, but have not been able to – that’s how dangerous they are.’

Sean Freeman · 23rd May 2008, 04:54 PM

Hmmmmmm.....I wonder if it is blocking someone's view?

Hypodermic needles my arse!

Ekka · 23rd May 2008, 08:54 PM

There's an ever growing implied and ridiculous mentality that we are all stupid, and must be protected from normal natural things because some-one "might" sue.

Case after case gets chucked out, but only the cases that are made get aired leaving a distorted perspective. That perspective is then magnified by shiny asses who seldom have interacted with real nature and a public that loves controversy on the front page.

Want to see the end of Tabloids and their trash, stop buying them.

Humans were born with senses and a brain, I'm sure that most can use them sufficiently without having to eradicate half the stuff on the planet to make it safe.

Again, why is society dumbing down?

In a nutshell, people are refusing to take responsibility for their own actions and seeking to make profit from their misfortunes. That is supported by huge industries and shiny asses.

Just imagine the planet in 100 years time with this stupidity gaining momentum.

Sean Freeman · 23rd May 2008, 11:45 PM

Rent out "Idiocracy" for a view on what it'll be like

newguy18 · 24th May 2008, 10:09 PM

Man society really sucks these days,God forbid a kid gets poked by a pine needle[got my first scar a 1 1/2].Even when i was growing up i rode my bike without a helmet,climbed trees unbelayed[we're talking 50-60 feet here],when i was in school if you were in a fight the one who threw the first punch caught the heat[now both kids get suspended]I think its friggin ridiculus to even consider cutting a tree down because someone might get pricked or hit with a pine cone.I have no faith in our[or any] government.everyone is afraid of a lawsuit these days and alot of people have a sue anyone for anythign mentality.

Ekka · 29th May 2008, 08:03 AM

Oh, this is great, the residents have an excellent rebuttle very well researched and presented.

West Cross Heritage: REPORT SUPPORTING RETENTION OF THE TREE

Quote:

CONTENTS
1. Introduction

2. Rebuttal of ALARP Health & Safety Report

3. Rebuttal of Barrell Tree Consultancy Report

4. The case for the monkey puzzle

5. The moral case

6. Media interest

7. Conclusion

8. Appendix 1 – Paul Barrett’s H&S report

9. Appendix 2 – Letter from Craig Anderson dated 1 July 2002

10. Appendix 3 – Photographs of other monkey puzzle trees

11. Appendix 4 – Storm Damage, Kittle Hill 26/5/08

12. Appendix 5 – Previous Assurances
*5a - Except from Planning Application
*5b – Councillor Mike Day e-mail dated 20 March 2008

13. Appendix 6 – Readers’ comments on S Wales Evening Post article 16/5/08

1. INTRODUCTION

This report has been prepared with the help of informal advice from two arboriculturalists (one approved by the Arboricultural Association), and extensive research of the internet and published sources.

The claims of the Health & Safety and Tree reports are so exaggerated as to discredit themselves.

We are led to question either:

• the “independence” of the external consultants used, or

• whether the Council or its consultant are sufficiently experienced with specialist tree groups to assess this tree species considering it is unique, or

• the wording of the Council’s brief which resulted in such exaggerated reports condemning the tree in such a biased manner.

2. REBUTTAL OF ALARP HEALTH & SAFETY REPORT

It is our opinion that the risk to school children of the monkey puzzle debris described in this report is grossly exaggerated. We attach (Appendix 1) a report by J. Paul Barrett, B. Eng (Hons); C.Eng; MIChemE; CMIOSH, RSP (Local Resident and Health & Safety Governor, Grange Primary School). This represents a thorough rebuttal of the ALARP report, including the following assertions:

• The syringe analogy to the foliage is inappropriate.

• The risk assessment itself is basic, simplistic and incomplete. The axes of the widely used risk matrix (Consequence + Likelihood/Probability) are incorrectly used.

• The consequence levels are misleading.

• A selection of management controls can easily be put in place to reduce the risk to a tolerable level. With an effective safe system of work in place at the new school, it would be extremely unlikely that harm would come to anyone who may be directly affected by the retention of this tree.

He has submitted this to his professional body as an example of Health & Safety regulations being used as an excuse to achieve other ends, and in so doing, giving a bad name to the Health & Safety profession.

Section 6 summarises the huge media response to this proposal, and we attach a list of comments which deluged the Evening Post’s web site following their article on 16 May (Appendix 6). The gist of the argument is that it is “Health & Safety gone mad”, and “wrapping our children in cotton wool” to the extent that they will be unable to judge potential hazards for themselves and learn to live in the real world. Also, there are many other hazards caused by prickly and stinging plants about which children will have to learn if they are to play safely in their gardens, local parks or countryside.

We remind the Council that this was a children’s home for 10 years. Children regularly played in the grounds unsupervised, and there was never any problem with injury by monkey puzzle debris. We are assured by a recent visitor to Patagonia (native habitat of the Monkey Puzzle) that children play happily under monkey puzzle trees in their local parks. Does the Council have any record of any injury ever being caused by monkey puzzle debris?

The amount of debris shed by this slow-growing evergreen is minimal compared to, for example, the Liquidamber suggested to replace it, which would dump a tree-load of leaves on the playground every autumn. The sweeping up of the debris would be a minor chore, not a major inconvenience. The twigs, leaves and other debris falling on the Multi-Use Games Area by the surrounding deciduous trees is likely to be a much more regular task.

The Council has made itself a complete ‘laughing stock’, trying to protect children from prickly plants, and especially drawing an analogy to discarded syringes. We all know that a scratch or prick from a leaf from a tree can in no way compare to the potential depth of incision and risk of infection by HIV or hepatitis of a discarded syringe. The analogy is totally disproportionate.

The Council should put any slight risk of injury from sharp pine needles in perspective, for example the risk of road accidents outside the school (especially bearing in mind the location on a road ranked by the Council as within the top 30 most dangerous roads in Swansea), or the daily likelihood of children at that age falling over and grazing their knees.

3. REBUTTAL OF BARRELL TREE CONSULTANCY REPORT

The Council claims that its Contractor’s (Wilmott Dixon) trench and storage of spoil within the Root Protection Area has damaged the roots, as has a previous excavation. Barrell claims "this level of damage will have a significant adverse effect on the long term health of this tree, which is likely to result in its decline and ultimately its loss." Also, "the damage ... within the RPA ... is likely to be significant to its stability. The root loss, combined with the exposed nature of the site, results in a substantial increase in the potential for the tree to be blown over." The consultant admits, though, that the tree is perfectly healthy at the moment.

Local residents dispute:

a) the seriousness of Willmott Dixon's damage (and so do Willmott Dixon verbally, they doubt if the small roots exposed even belonged to the monkey puzzle, but they will not bring their own tree consultant in to refute the accusations as they find themselves in a difficult position with the Council. Do they risk their reputation as a ‘Considerate Contractor’, or do they risk damaging their commercial relationship with the Council?). Since the alleged damage occurred, there have been winds of gale force 8 on two occasions and 33 force 7 on 33 occasions. These are average wind speeds over 3 hours, but no doubt gusts would have been considerably stronger. (This excludes winds over weekend 24 – 26 May 2008).

b) the seriousness of previous excavations nearby, which happened 6 years ago. Surely the tree would be showing signs of suffering by now? The Council assured us at the time that the tree was not "immediately threatened" and that the retaining wall "should ensure the long term survival of the tree" (copy of letter attached – Appendix 2- from Craig Anderson, then the Director of Development). Since 1 March 2003, Swansea Bay has experienced gale force 8 winds on 5 occasions and near gale force 7 on 63 occasions. Wouldn't it have blown over by now? Would there not be evidence of compromised stability?

Our research indicates that:

The alleged damage is, at best exaggerated, at worst fabricated, as the Council realises that the debris argument, on its own, is insufficient to condemn the tree. The work within the "one-size-fits-all" Root Protection Area, though contrary to good practice, is not that serious for a monkey puzzle tree whose main roots grow straight down, and is a drought tolerant tree growing naturally in extremely harsh, variable and windy environments. The site is not nearly as exposed as its natural mountain habitat, and in fact Swansea Bay and this particular West Cross site is sheltered from the severest effects of westerly gales. The Council's own tree consultant estimated the maximum diameter of the allegedly damaged roots was 1.5cm - could these seriously hold up a tree 45 - 50 ft high? If the exposed roots were monkey puzzle tree roots at all, they were only small surface roots, not structural ones. The tensional strength of such roots would provide a negligible contribution to stability of such a large structure, weight and wind resistance. In terms of tree health, any severance of these roots would merely mimic the effects of drought in its natural habitat, for which the normal response of this species would be for an extra whorl or two of leaves to die off (minor natural retrenchment) and, when conditions become more favourable again, to carry on growing. Your arboriculturalist may not be aware that the natural habitat of these trees are the cloud forests of the Andes. The unusual foliage has probably evolved to absorb moisture from the air, readily available to Swansea monkey puzzles during the familiar sea mist which rolls in onto the West Wales coast. This ensures that this is an optimal location for monkey puzzles.

An idea of the narrow root spread of monkey puzzle trees compared to many other trees can be gained from Cutler & Richardson “Tree Roots and Buildings”, Construction Press, 1981. Two records of monkey puzzle trees causing damage to buildings on clay soils were found, with a maximum distance from the building of only 3m. This compares, for example, to Cupressus (20m), willow (40m), sycamore (20m), ash (21m) and oak (30m). Therefore, it is extremely unlikely that excavation and a new retaining wall 4.5m from the monkey puzzle tree would have caused any significant damage to the roots.

Section 11.3.5 of BS5837:2005 Trees in Relation to Construction Sites, recommends that, within the Root Protection Area, “roots less than 25mm diameter may be pruned back”. The Barrell Tree Consultancy report states that roots “up to 15 mm diameter” were exposed. Even if these were monkey puzzle roots, this is well within the tolerance of damage considered acceptable in BS5837. This was recommended as being acceptable in a recent case in Portsmouth (Development Control Meeting held on 23 April 2008), in which the Applicant wanted to build a new garage and was keen to keep an “early mature” monkey puzzle tree.

Appendix 3 includes photographs which clearly show the resilience of monkey puzzle trees to adverse conditions, retaining walls within very close proximity and abuse by surrounding development.

Monkey puzzle trees have ‘elastic’ branches, designed to withstand the rigours of Andean winds. Even the word ‘branch’ is an overstatement – a ‘whorl of leaves’ is more accurate. Observation of the West Cross monkey puzzle shows that, while other trees are swaying madly, the monkey puzzle (and its neighbour the Scots pine) stands solid as a rock, its ‘branches’ merely twisting around and adjusting shape to the wind. Because it does not have proper ‘branches’, there is no risk of very heavy boughs breaking and crashing to the ground, unlike our poor native broadleaves overburdened with their recent growth of leaves this Bank Holiday weekend.

Appendix 4 shows wind damage over this weekend of 24 - 26 May 2008 to deciduous trees down Kittle Hill. There was widespread debris all over the neighbourhood as a result of high winds gusting to over 60mph (storm force 10) over 3 days. (Source: Met Office: Weather and climate change weather/uk/wl/mumbles_head_latest_weather_graphs.html). There was no visible debris from the monkey puzzle large enough to see with powerful binoculars from neighbouring properties. Coniferous trees such as this are far less susceptible to wind damage than deciduous trees when in leaf.

4. THE CASE FOR THE MONKEY PUZZLE TREE

The unusual shape, character and visual prominence of this tree has made it highly valued by the general public for many decades. In an urban landscape, trees develop immense importance to local people, as demonstrated by the massive public outcry to the threat to this remarkable tree. No monkey puzzle tree is alike, they are all individual art forms. This one, as an unadulterated, un-manicured, self-pruned tree has grown just as nature intended, and oozes character and individuality. How else would this latest threat evoke such total outrage in the whole community?

A native of Chile and Patagonia, the monkey puzzle is now seriously threatened in its native habitat, where it is now regarded as an ancient monument and affords the highest level of legal protection (including Appendix 1 of CITES). If this was an animal species, the individuals planted across Europe in the 1860’s would be regarded as a kind of ‘captive breeding programme’.

It is a living fossil and a fascinating tree, surviving since the late Cretaceous c. 100 million years ago, and outlasting the dinosaurs by tens of millions of years. It has been suggested that the sharp leaves prevented them being eaten by dinosaurs.

Local historians have estimated that this monkey puzzle tree was planted around 150 years ago, when a Mr Strick (one time Mayor of Swansea) bought West Cross House. This would make it one of the original genetic stock of seeds brought in from Chile during the 1860’s, linking with Swansea’s maritime history and the copper trade. By a quirk of fate, this also coincides with the time Welsh speakers from South Wales emigrated to Patagonia to establish Welsh-speaking colonies still thriving today. Whilst most towns have maybe 5 or 6 monkey puzzle trees, Swansea has 20 covered by TPO’s, plus a number (such as this one) in public ownership. There seems to be a curious concentration of these trees in Swansea, and perhaps we should treasure them as some as yet unexplored link with our past, and a potential link with Patagonian and Chilean conservation efforts in the future.

This tree is probably the single most valuable educational asset on the site for the children of Llwynderw, for example:

• An icon and a source of pride, identity and interest for the school
• A focus for art, science, geography, making up stories about dinosaurs, and history – link with Swansea’s seafaring past.
• Welsh language – potentially an interesting link with Welsh-speaking communities in the monkey puzzle’s native Patagonia.

It is really difficult to imagine why the Council would want to cut it down!

5. THE MORAL CASE

The Council has assured local residents on two occasions that the monkey puzzle would be retained:

• In the Planning Application. Did the Council not realise it had prickly leaves then? Why didn’t preliminary site surveys by consultants paid out of the public purse pick up all this quantity of dangerous debris? (Excerpt of Landscape Plan attached – Appendix 5a).

• In an e-mail from Councillor Mike Day dated 20 March 2008 (attached – Appendix 5b), he gave an unequivocal assurance that “the Council will be retaining the monkey puzzle tree at the Llwynderw School site”. Full stop. If the Council was still pursuing consultants to check out the safety of the tree, should he not have said this. One can only assume that it was either a sop in the run up to the election, or designed to prevent local residents from pursuing their own investigations, thereby leaving us a minimal amount of time when the plans finally went out to public consultation on 12 May?

One of the Council’s key roles is to protect the environment. It should be seen to be applying at least the same rules to Council land as it would to a private developer, and preferably showing itself as an example of best practice. The fact that this tree is not covered by a TPO is purely because it is on Council land and Councils do not put TPO’s on their own trees, deeming themselves to be ‘responsible custodians’.

If the Council is so concerned about the Root Protection Area in accordance with BS5837:2005 Trees in Relation to Construction, why did it allow its own contractor to carry out the alleged damage due to poor supervision, and why does it continue to allow its own contractor to store soil within this theoretical RPA? We urge the Council to immediately enforce the RPA and instruct its cont

17th May 2008, 03:14 PM	#2 (permalink)
Roller Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Suffolk UK Posts: 208	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La Not much you can say to that, except we live in very funny times.I had the local council bod advise me to take my plum tree down in case the fruit created a slip hazard on a public foot path it over hangs. I told her to go and get stuffed..........

17th May 2008, 04:00 PM	#3 (permalink)
vitex42 Sappling Join Date: May 2008 Location: Auckland, NZ - NHD Forestry ISA Certified Arborist Posts: 35	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La Bunya bunya is Araucaria bidwillii and not Araucaria araucana as reported above.... Some big ones in Auckland and the cones are absolutely alarming in size and weigh about half a kilo. If they hit you they'd kill ya. Trouble is, the tree isn't 'hazardous' unless you're inside the fall zone of the cones. The question is, can the tree be isolated from pedestrians (e.g. by putting a fence around it in cone years)? They don't seem to set cones every year. Follow this link: the cones are bigger than pineapples! Woods: Araucaria I think this tree should be saved, but if so you have to do something about the cones (either prune them off or fence the tree)

17th May 2008, 04:10 PM	#4 (permalink)
Roller Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Suffolk UK Posts: 208	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La I've never ever seen a monkey puzzle set a fruit/cone in this country..

17th May 2008, 04:17 PM	#5 (permalink)
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,734	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La Personally I think they built something as there's mention of that opening and pedestrians and failed to allocate room for the tree or cut it down back then. This is a cock up by council. I'd just love to see a pic and what's going on, considering it's a 150year old maybe healthy tree. Even if it's a Bunya as long as your out of the drip line your OK. As far spikey foliage, well crown lift it you bloody wankers. As far as shedding dead spikey foliage, mulch garden beneath or mow the bloody lawn you wankers. We got Bunyas here, even in the Bot Gardens for crying out loud. Mulch, garden, fancy fence like even rope etc and signs. This isn't rocket science. __________________ Arborist Training in Australia\| Your Free Helping Guide Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory .... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Tree Care, Consulting, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

17th May 2008, 04:24 PM	#6 (permalink)
vitex42 Sappling Join Date: May 2008 Location: Auckland, NZ - NHD Forestry ISA Certified Arborist Posts: 35	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La The irony is people hang around buildings with scaffold around them every day and they don't complain about the hazard (even when there's a good chance of being nutted by a dropped hammer)..... Cutting down a tree because it drops leaves is just stupid. If it was a 150 year old building they'd be screaming!

23rd May 2008, 04:54 PM	#8 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,868	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La Hmmmmmm.....I wonder if it is blocking someone's view? Hypodermic needles my arse! __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

23rd May 2008, 08:54 PM	#9 (permalink)
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,734	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La There's an ever growing implied and ridiculous mentality that we are all stupid, and must be protected from normal natural things because some-one "might" sue. Case after case gets chucked out, but only the cases that are made get aired leaving a distorted perspective. That perspective is then magnified by shiny asses who seldom have interacted with real nature and a public that loves controversy on the front page. Want to see the end of Tabloids and their trash, stop buying them. Humans were born with senses and a brain, I'm sure that most can use them sufficiently without having to eradicate half the stuff on the planet to make it safe. Again, why is society dumbing down? In a nutshell, people are refusing to take responsibility for their own actions and seeking to make profit from their misfortunes. That is supported by huge industries and shiny asses. Just imagine the planet in 100 years time with this stupidity gaining momentum. __________________ Arborist Training in Australia\| Your Free Helping Guide Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory .... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Tree Care, Consulting, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

23rd May 2008, 11:45 PM	#10 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,868	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La Rent out "Idiocracy" for a view on what it'll be like __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

24th May 2008, 10:09 PM	#11 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Dead twig Florida. Posts: 4,062	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La Man society really sucks these days,God forbid a kid gets poked by a pine needle[got my first scar a 1 1/2].Even when i was growing up i rode my bike without a helmet,climbed trees unbelayed[we're talking 50-60 feet here],when i was in school if you were in a fight the one who threw the first punch caught the heat[now both kids get suspended]I think its friggin ridiculus to even consider cutting a tree down because someone might get pricked or hit with a pine cone.I have no faith in our[or any] government.everyone is afraid of a lawsuit these days and alot of people have a sue anyone for anythign mentality. __________________ Have your say join us today. I ship USA saws out of the USA "Everybody's hell on safety." G.f.beranek. www.atreestory.com