UK Arborists| Tree ambiguity| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross Lane

Eric Frei · 18th May 2008, 02:50 AM

It appears the Swansea Council has managed to get an arborist report to condemn as dangerous a perfectly normal healthy tree.

Housewife campaigns to save monkey puzzle tree - icWales

Quote:

Housewife campaigns to save monkey puzzle tree

May 17 2008 by Robin Turner, Western Mail

A NATURE-LOVING housewife is leading a campaign to save a monkey puzzle tree which experts have branded “dangerous”.

One expert hired by Swansea Council which is considering chopping down the 150-year-old tree claims spines on cones from the monkey puzzle are as sharp as “syringe needles”.

And the expert’s report warns: “The fruit could be a potential pedestrian or vehicular hazard when falling.”

The report also warns the council could be held liable if anyone was hurt by falling needles.

The monkey puzzle tree (Araucaria araucana) is just a few hundred yards from singer Bonnie Tyler’s seafront home at West Cross, Swansea.

It is on the site of Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross Lane, which is due to open in a few months.

But West Cross resident Carol Crafer, 49, says the council’s assertions that the tree is dangerous are “laughable”.

She said: “Trees soften the landscape and are a beautiful, natural addition to any neighbourhood.

“Everything possible should be done to save them but it seems the council are prepared to listen to anything which could lead to it being pulled down.”

The future of the West Cross monkey puzzle tree will reach a crisis point in June when Swansea’s planning committee will consider evidence from people on both sides of the argument.

Mrs Crafer says the monkey puzzle tree represents part of Swansea’s heritage.

She said: “When Swansea’s sailors rounded the horn as part of the copper trade, these trees started being brought back from South America.

“That’s why you see so many of them in maritime places like Swansea... to cut them down would be sacrilege.”

She added local historians estimated the tree would have been planted 150 years ago, shortly after the death of the Duke of Wellington when Queen Victoria was still in her 30s.

Gower MP Martin Caton said: “I urge everyone who cares about the quality of their environment to protest against this council plan.”

There's no mention of decay, defects, dead wood etc just of the tree being what it is and using that to get rid of it.

This raises questions of why they didn't accomodate the tree correctly in their planning?

Also why they cannot create a TPZ or make the area safer.

this is swansea - news, entertainment, jobs, homes and cars

According to what this guy says the tree is protected.

Quote:

PLEASE DO NOT CUT TREE

09:00 - 04 March 2008

As a regular visitor to Swansea, I was distressed to read in the Evening Post of the council's plan to cut down the Monkey Puzzle tree in West Cross.This species is endangered and it is illegal to cut them down. The International Cites (Convention on International Trade in Endangered species) listed the Monkey Puzzle tree (Araucaria araucana) in the highest category of those immediately threatened with biological extinction.

The residents of Swansea, particularly the young, would be deprived of admiring this beautiful tree which, if felled, would be irreplaceable.

Douglas Hall

Pool Drive

Doncaster

In June the outcome may be known, if you know anyone in the area or can keep this updated it would be great.

Quote:

The future of the West Cross monkey puzzle tree will reach a crisis point in June when Swansea’s planning committee will consider evidence from people on both sides of the argument.

But seeing first hand the fiasco would be the best, from what I read it stinks!

Roller · 18th May 2008, 09:14 AM

Not much you can say to that, except we live in very funny times.I had the local council bod advise me to take my plum tree down in case the fruit created a slip hazard on a public foot path it over hangs.

I told her to go and get stuffed..........

vitex42 · 18th May 2008, 10:00 AM

Bunya bunya is Araucaria bidwillii and not Araucaria araucana as reported above....

Some big ones in Auckland and the cones are absolutely alarming in size and weigh about half a kilo. If they hit you they'd kill ya.

Trouble is, the tree isn't 'hazardous' unless you're inside the fall zone of the cones. The question is, can the tree be isolated from pedestrians (e.g. by putting a fence around it in cone years)? They don't seem to set cones every year.

Follow this link: the cones are bigger than pineapples!

Woods: Araucaria

I think this tree should be saved, but if so you have to do something about the cones (either prune them off or fence the tree)

Roller · 18th May 2008, 10:10 AM

I've never ever seen a monkey puzzle set a fruit/cone in this country..

Eric Frei · 18th May 2008, 10:17 AM

Personally I think they built something as there's mention of that opening and pedestrians and failed to allocate room for the tree or cut it down back then.

This is a cock up by council. I'd just love to see a pic and what's going on, considering it's a 150year old maybe healthy tree.

Even if it's a Bunya as long as your out of the drip line your OK.

As far spikey foliage, well crown lift it you bloody wankers.

As far as shedding dead spikey foliage, mulch garden beneath or mow the bloody lawn you wankers.

We got Bunyas here, even in the Bot Gardens for crying out loud. Mulch, garden, fancy fence like even rope etc and signs. This isn't rocket science.

vitex42 · 18th May 2008, 10:24 AM

The irony is people hang around buildings with scaffold around them every day and they don't complain about the hazard (even when there's a good chance of being nutted by a dropped hammer).....

Cutting down a tree because it drops leaves is just stupid.

If it was a 150 year old building they'd be screaming!

Eric Frei · 24th May 2008, 10:25 AM

More out now with pics.

150-year-old Monkey puzzle tree facing chop because needles are 'like syringes' | Mail Online

Quote:

One expert likened the effect of the needles to being pricked by a hypodermic syringe.

‘Every effort is made in this day and age to prevent children playing with discarded syringe needles,’ a report stated.

‘Every effort must be made to prevent children coming into contact with these potentially, equally sharp needles.’

Quote:

‘The tree is part of the local landscape and has been for a century and a half. It rarely sheds its foliage and there are plenty of volunteers here who would be happy to clear up the needles.’

‘We have put this to the test by trying to prick ourselves with the needles, but have not been able to – that’s how dangerous they are.’

Sean Freeman · 24th May 2008, 10:54 AM

Hmmmmmm.....I wonder if it is blocking someone's view?

Hypodermic needles my arse!

Eric Frei · 24th May 2008, 02:54 PM

There's an ever growing implied and ridiculous mentality that we are all stupid, and must be protected from normal natural things because some-one "might" sue.

Case after case gets chucked out, but only the cases that are made get aired leaving a distorted perspective. That perspective is then magnified by shiny asses who seldom have interacted with real nature and a public that loves controversy on the front page.

Want to see the end of Tabloids and their trash, stop buying them.

Humans were born with senses and a brain, I'm sure that most can use them sufficiently without having to eradicate half the stuff on the planet to make it safe.

Again, why is society dumbing down?

In a nutshell, people are refusing to take responsibility for their own actions and seeking to make profit from their misfortunes. That is supported by huge industries and shiny asses.

Just imagine the planet in 100 years time with this stupidity gaining momentum.

Sean Freeman · 24th May 2008, 05:45 PM

Rent out "Idiocracy" for a view on what it'll be like

newguy18 · 25th May 2008, 04:09 PM

Man society really sucks these days,God forbid a kid gets poked by a pine needle[got my first scar a 1 1/2].Even when i was growing up i rode my bike without a helmet,climbed trees unbelayed[we're talking 50-60 feet here],when i was in school if you were in a fight the one who threw the first punch caught the heat[now both kids get suspended]I think its friggin ridiculus to even consider cutting a tree down because someone might get pricked or hit with a pine cone.I have no faith in our[or any] government.everyone is afraid of a lawsuit these days and alot of people have a sue anyone for anythign mentality.

Eric Frei · 30th May 2008, 02:03 AM

Oh, this is great, the residents have an excellent rebuttle very well researched and presented.

West Cross Heritage: REPORT SUPPORTING RETENTION OF THE TREE

Quote:

CONTENTS
1. Introduction

2. Rebuttal of ALARP Health & Safety Report

3. Rebuttal of Barrell Tree Consultancy Report

4. The case for the monkey puzzle

5. The moral case

6. Media interest

7. Conclusion

8. Appendix 1 – Paul Barrett’s H&S report

9. Appendix 2 – Letter from Craig Anderson dated 1 July 2002

10. Appendix 3 – Photographs of other monkey puzzle trees

11. Appendix 4 – Storm Damage, Kittle Hill 26/5/08

12. Appendix 5 – Previous Assurances
*5a - Except from Planning Application
*5b – Councillor Mike Day e-mail dated 20 March 2008

13. Appendix 6 – Readers’ comments on S Wales Evening Post article 16/5/08

1. INTRODUCTION

This report has been prepared with the help of informal advice from two arboriculturalists (one approved by the Arboricultural Association), and extensive research of the internet and published sources.

The claims of the Health & Safety and Tree reports are so exaggerated as to discredit themselves.

We are led to question either:

• the “independence” of the external consultants used, or

• whether the Council or its consultant are sufficiently experienced with specialist tree groups to assess this tree species considering it is unique, or

• the wording of the Council’s brief which resulted in such exaggerated reports condemning the tree in such a biased manner.

2. REBUTTAL OF ALARP HEALTH & SAFETY REPORT

It is our opinion that the risk to school children of the monkey puzzle debris described in this report is grossly exaggerated. We attach (Appendix 1) a report by J. Paul Barrett, B. Eng (Hons); C.Eng; MIChemE; CMIOSH, RSP (Local Resident and Health & Safety Governor, Grange Primary School). This represents a thorough rebuttal of the ALARP report, including the following assertions:

• The syringe analogy to the foliage is inappropriate.

• The risk assessment itself is basic, simplistic and incomplete. The axes of the widely used risk matrix (Consequence + Likelihood/Probability) are incorrectly used.

• The consequence levels are misleading.

• A selection of management controls can easily be put in place to reduce the risk to a tolerable level. With an effective safe system of work in place at the new school, it would be extremely unlikely that harm would come to anyone who may be directly affected by the retention of this tree.

He has submitted this to his professional body as an example of Health & Safety regulations being used as an excuse to achieve other ends, and in so doing, giving a bad name to the Health & Safety profession.

Section 6 summarises the huge media response to this proposal, and we attach a list of comments which deluged the Evening Post’s web site following their article on 16 May (Appendix 6). The gist of the argument is that it is “Health & Safety gone mad”, and “wrapping our children in cotton wool” to the extent that they will be unable to judge potential hazards for themselves and learn to live in the real world. Also, there are many other hazards caused by prickly and stinging plants about which children will have to learn if they are to play safely in their gardens, local parks or countryside.

We remind the Council that this was a children’s home for 10 years. Children regularly played in the grounds unsupervised, and there was never any problem with injury by monkey puzzle debris. We are assured by a recent visitor to Patagonia (native habitat of the Monkey Puzzle) that children play happily under monkey puzzle trees in their local parks. Does the Council have any record of any injury ever being caused by monkey puzzle debris?

The amount of debris shed by this slow-growing evergreen is minimal compared to, for example, the Liquidamber suggested to replace it, which would dump a tree-load of leaves on the playground every autumn. The sweeping up of the debris would be a minor chore, not a major inconvenience. The twigs, leaves and other debris falling on the Multi-Use Games Area by the surrounding deciduous trees is likely to be a much more regular task.

The Council has made itself a complete ‘laughing stock’, trying to protect children from prickly plants, and especially drawing an analogy to discarded syringes. We all know that a scratch or prick from a leaf from a tree can in no way compare to the potential depth of incision and risk of infection by HIV or hepatitis of a discarded syringe. The analogy is totally disproportionate.

The Council should put any slight risk of injury from sharp pine needles in perspective, for example the risk of road accidents outside the school (especially bearing in mind the location on a road ranked by the Council as within the top 30 most dangerous roads in Swansea), or the daily likelihood of children at that age falling over and grazing their knees.

3. REBUTTAL OF BARRELL TREE CONSULTANCY REPORT

The Council claims that its Contractor’s (Wilmott Dixon) trench and storage of spoil within the Root Protection Area has damaged the roots, as has a previous excavation. Barrell claims "this level of damage will have a significant adverse effect on the long term health of this tree, which is likely to result in its decline and ultimately its loss." Also, "the damage ... within the RPA ... is likely to be significant to its stability. The root loss, combined with the exposed nature of the site, results in a substantial increase in the potential for the tree to be blown over." The consultant admits, though, that the tree is perfectly healthy at the moment.

Local residents dispute:

a) the seriousness of Willmott Dixon's damage (and so do Willmott Dixon verbally, they doubt if the small roots exposed even belonged to the monkey puzzle, but they will not bring their own tree consultant in to refute the accusations as they find themselves in a difficult position with the Council. Do they risk their reputation as a ‘Considerate Contractor’, or do they risk damaging their commercial relationship with the Council?). Since the alleged damage occurred, there have been winds of gale force 8 on two occasions and 33 force 7 on 33 occasions. These are average wind speeds over 3 hours, but no doubt gusts would have been considerably stronger. (This excludes winds over weekend 24 – 26 May 2008).

b) the seriousness of previous excavations nearby, which happened 6 years ago. Surely the tree would be showing signs of suffering by now? The Council assured us at the time that the tree was not "immediately threatened" and that the retaining wall "should ensure the long term survival of the tree" (copy of letter attached – Appendix 2- from Craig Anderson, then the Director of Development). Since 1 March 2003, Swansea Bay has experienced gale force 8 winds on 5 occasions and near gale force 7 on 63 occasions. Wouldn't it have blown over by now? Would there not be evidence of compromised stability?

Our research indicates that:

The alleged damage is, at best exaggerated, at worst fabricated, as the Council realises that the debris argument, on its own, is insufficient to condemn the tree. The work within the "one-size-fits-all" Root Protection Area, though contrary to good practice, is not that serious for a monkey puzzle tree whose main roots grow straight down, and is a drought tolerant tree growing naturally in extremely harsh, variable and windy environments. The site is not nearly as exposed as its natural mountain habitat, and in fact Swansea Bay and this particular West Cross site is sheltered from the severest effects of westerly gales. The Council's own tree consultant estimated the maximum diameter of the allegedly damaged roots was 1.5cm - could these seriously hold up a tree 45 - 50 ft high? If the exposed roots were monkey puzzle tree roots at all, they were only small surface roots, not structural ones. The tensional strength of such roots would provide a negligible contribution to stability of such a large structure, weight and wind resistance. In terms of tree health, any severance of these roots would merely mimic the effects of drought in its natural habitat, for which the normal response of this species would be for an extra whorl or two of leaves to die off (minor natural retrenchment) and, when conditions become more favourable again, to carry on growing. Your arboriculturalist may not be aware that the natural habitat of these trees are the cloud forests of the Andes. The unusual foliage has probably evolved to absorb moisture from the air, readily available to Swansea monkey puzzles during the familiar sea mist which rolls in onto the West Wales coast. This ensures that this is an optimal location for monkey puzzles.

An idea of the narrow root spread of monkey puzzle trees compared to many other trees can be gained from Cutler & Richardson “Tree Roots and Buildings”, Construction Press, 1981. Two records of monkey puzzle trees causing damage to buildings on clay soils were found, with a maximum distance from the building of only 3m. This compares, for example, to Cupressus (20m), willow (40m), sycamore (20m), ash (21m) and oak (30m). Therefore, it is extremely unlikely that excavation and a new retaining wall 4.5m from the monkey puzzle tree would have caused any significant damage to the roots.

Section 11.3.5 of BS5837:2005 Trees in Relation to Construction Sites, recommends that, within the Root Protection Area, “roots less than 25mm diameter may be pruned back”. The Barrell Tree Consultancy report states that roots “up to 15 mm diameter” were exposed. Even if these were monkey puzzle roots, this is well within the tolerance of damage considered acceptable in BS5837. This was recommended as being acceptable in a recent case in Portsmouth (Development Control Meeting held on 23 April 2008), in which the Applicant wanted to build a new garage and was keen to keep an “early mature” monkey puzzle tree.

Appendix 3 includes photographs which clearly show the resilience of monkey puzzle trees to adverse conditions, retaining walls within very close proximity and abuse by surrounding development.

Monkey puzzle trees have ‘elastic’ branches, designed to withstand the rigours of Andean winds. Even the word ‘branch’ is an overstatement – a ‘whorl of leaves’ is more accurate. Observation of the West Cross monkey puzzle shows that, while other trees are swaying madly, the monkey puzzle (and its neighbour the Scots pine) stands solid as a rock, its ‘branches’ merely twisting around and adjusting shape to the wind. Because it does not have proper ‘branches’, there is no risk of very heavy boughs breaking and crashing to the ground, unlike our poor native broadleaves overburdened with their recent growth of leaves this Bank Holiday weekend.

Appendix 4 shows wind damage over this weekend of 24 - 26 May 2008 to deciduous trees down Kittle Hill. There was widespread debris all over the neighbourhood as a result of high winds gusting to over 60mph (storm force 10) over 3 days. (Source: Met Office: Weather and climate change weather/uk/wl/mumbles_head_latest_weather_graphs.html). There was no visible debris from the monkey puzzle large enough to see with powerful binoculars from neighbouring properties. Coniferous trees such as this are far less susceptible to wind damage than deciduous trees when in leaf.

4. THE CASE FOR THE MONKEY PUZZLE TREE

The unusual shape, character and visual prominence of this tree has made it highly valued by the general public for many decades. In an urban landscape, trees develop immense importance to local people, as demonstrated by the massive public outcry to the threat to this remarkable tree. No monkey puzzle tree is alike, they are all individual art forms. This one, as an unadulterated, un-manicured, self-pruned tree has grown just as nature intended, and oozes character and individuality. How else would this latest threat evoke such total outrage in the whole community?

A native of Chile and Patagonia, the monkey puzzle is now seriously threatened in its native habitat, where it is now regarded as an ancient monument and affords the highest level of legal protection (including Appendix 1 of CITES). If this was an animal species, the individuals planted across Europe in the 1860’s would be regarded as a kind of ‘captive breeding programme’.

It is a living fossil and a fascinating tree, surviving since the late Cretaceous c. 100 million years ago, and outlasting the dinosaurs by tens of millions of years. It has been suggested that the sharp leaves prevented them being eaten by dinosaurs.

Local historians have estimated that this monkey puzzle tree was planted around 150 years ago, when a Mr Strick (one time Mayor of Swansea) bought West Cross House. This would make it one of the original genetic stock of seeds brought in from Chile during the 1860’s, linking with Swansea’s maritime history and the copper trade. By a quirk of fate, this also coincides with the time Welsh speakers from South Wales emigrated to Patagonia to establish Welsh-speaking colonies still thriving today. Whilst most towns have maybe 5 or 6 monkey puzzle trees, Swansea has 20 covered by TPO’s, plus a number (such as this one) in public ownership. There seems to be a curious concentration of these trees in Swansea, and perhaps we should treasure them as some as yet unexplored link with our past, and a potential link with Patagonian and Chilean conservation efforts in the future.

This tree is probably the single most valuable educational asset on the site for the children of Llwynderw, for example:

• An icon and a source of pride, identity and interest for the school
• A focus for art, science, geography, making up stories about dinosaurs, and history – link with Swansea’s seafaring past.
• Welsh language – potentially an interesting link with Welsh-speaking communities in the monkey puzzle’s native Patagonia.

It is really difficult to imagine why the Council would want to cut it down!

5. THE MORAL CASE

The Council has assured local residents on two occasions that the monkey puzzle would be retained:

• In the Planning Application. Did the Council not realise it had prickly leaves then? Why didn’t preliminary site surveys by consultants paid out of the public purse pick up all this quantity of dangerous debris? (Excerpt of Landscape Plan attached – Appendix 5a).

• In an e-mail from Councillor Mike Day dated 20 March 2008 (attached – Appendix 5b), he gave an unequivocal assurance that “the Council will be retaining the monkey puzzle tree at the Llwynderw School site”. Full stop. If the Council was still pursuing consultants to check out the safety of the tree, should he not have said this. One can only assume that it was either a sop in the run up to the election, or designed to prevent local residents from pursuing their own investigations, thereby leaving us a minimal amount of time when the plans finally went out to public consultation on 12 May?

One of the Council’s key roles is to protect the environment. It should be seen to be applying at least the same rules to Council land as it would to a private developer, and preferably showing itself as an example of best practice. The fact that this tree is not covered by a TPO is purely because it is on Council land and Councils do not put TPO’s on their own trees, deeming themselves to be ‘responsible custodians’.

If the Council is so concerned about the Root Protection Area in accordance with BS5837:2005 Trees in Relation to Construction, why did it allow its own contractor to carry out the alleged damage due to poor supervision, and why does it continue to allow its own contractor to store soil within this theoretical RPA? We urge the Council to immediately enforce the RPA and instruct its contractor to fence this tree (and others) against further damage, in accordance with BS5837.

The Council’s contractor, Wilmott Dixon, is registered under the Considerate Contractor scheme, and as such should be protecting all trees which are to be retained against accidental damage. Not a single tree on site has been protected in this way yet tree protection is probably one of the most visible signs of implementation of care for the environment of a construction site.

6. MEDIA INTEREST

There has been enormous media interest in this issue, which is being seen as a prime example of ”health & safety gone mad”, “wrapping children in cotton wool” and another example of over-cautious bureaucrats felling thousands of our favourite urban trees. We have not contacted any of the media ourselves. The South Wales Evening Post picked it up from the Council web site, the Western Mail and news agencies from there, and the rest has snowballed due to the compelling arguments of common sense against the Council’s disproportionate and unbalanced approach to health and safety.

To date, media coverage has been as follows:

South Wales Evening Post 16 May
Western Mail 17 May
ITV Wales 20 May
Daily Mail 23 May
Telegraph 23 May
Radio 5 Live 24 May
GMTV 26 May

The readers’ comments on the Evening Post’s article on 16 May might make highly entertaining reading, but for the Council represent a damning indictment of their disproportionate approach (see Appendix 6). These comments and letters, e-mails and telephone calls to us have been coming from all over Swansea and beyond, and even Bristol, Suffolk, Dorset and London. This is not just a local issue about a tree, it is about a principle causing consternation all over the country.

In addition, Gardeners’ World on Friday 23 May included an interview with Alan Titchmarsh, all about the threatened monkey puzzle as a species, and how we should be protecting them.

7. CONCLUSION

Swansea Council is now very much in the public eye over this issue. If it fells this remarkable and much-loved tree, it will be held up for years to come as one of the classic examples of health & safety gone mad, and the risks of litigation and insurance claims (for a scratched finger?!) winning over common sense. The risk of the tree falling over or suffering long-term deterioration as a result of alleged root damage is negligible and totally unproven. In fact our long term evidence on wind and excavation history around the tree is more compelling than a one-off site visit.

We urge the Council to retain the monkey puzzle tree and ensure that all trees on the site are properly protected from now on in accordance with BS5837:2005.

newguy18 · 30th May 2008, 01:55 PM

i really hope they can save that tree.

Eric Frei · 30th May 2008, 02:31 PM

this is swansea - news, entertainment, jobs, homes and cars

Quote:

09:00 - 29 May 2008

Council bosses have coughed up £3,000 for two reports which condemned a popular monkey puzzle tree in Swansea, saying its needles were too sharp.

A lot of money for 1 healthy tree report, reckon anyones getting favours and back handers here?

newguy18 · 30th May 2008, 02:43 PM

Yeah sounds like the council is useing[abusing] its power.its gonna open someone's view up.

vitex42 · 3rd June 2008, 09:03 AM

This is a really brilliant rebuttal from the citizens action group.

Interestingly, the consultant used by the Council is supposedly a byword in 'state of the art' tree hazard assessment, and this just shows how good a commonsense rebuttal can be.

All you have to do is make sure of your facts, and stick to your guns.

I know from years of experience that it is much easier to condemn a tree through its faults than to protect it. Arborists are kinda conditioned to err on the side of caution.

We're also guilty of using smoke-and-mirrors reports that say nothing and are littered with jargon. I reckon the simpler and clearer arborists are in their reporting, the better the trees are served.

I think it is occasionally appropriate to tell the public to Harden Up....

Sean Freeman · 3rd June 2008, 11:52 AM

Whilst it is possible that Jeremy Barrell actually visited the site and wrote the report it is unlikely....more likely one of the consulting Arborists working in his company did.
Doesn't deflect any criticism of the poor quality of the reporting and the very dubious conclusions, and that as the head of the company he should have to wear the resulting flack.

You are quite correct vitex42, it is one of the most effectively constructed defences for retention of a tree I have read...good on them.
I totally agree with you too that as Arborists we are often guilty of focussing on the minutia of "defects" that are normal within the structure and function of trees.

My gut feeling has been from the outset that this particular instance is being driven by motivations far removed from Health and Safety.

newguy18 · 3rd June 2008, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Freeman

Hypodermic needles my arse!

Maybe to someone who has creamy lotiony hands.

Eric Frei · 3rd June 2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Freeman

My gut feeling has been from the outset that this particular instance is being driven by motivations far removed from Health and Safety.

What do you reckon?

I dont know, the buildings are built. I doubt they want to build right there. What do you reckon coz personally I think, from experiences here, that an over zealous safety/tree hater has badgered some-one to give them the OK to get rid of it.

I dont see any other reason. Some people are afraid of their own shadow ... you know that as well as I do, just wondering what other motivations there might be.

newguy18 · 4th June 2008, 01:30 PM

I think the answer was in the first post.

quote,The report also warns the council could be held liable if anyone was hurt by falling needles.
unquote.
What do you guys think?

Sean Freeman · 4th June 2008, 03:20 PM

Its fine to write whatever you like in a report, but councils in the UK just like anywhere these days have good experience at being targets for claims against them. Falling foliage even firm spikey foliage does not represent an unacceptable risk of harm, not even on the radar...you'd be laughed out of court, and then have to pay the costs!
Risk is not the driver here, individuals that have a wierd world view with leverage in council

...perhaps.

The Arb report from Barrell consultants doesn't talk about needles, it focuses on root damage and the percieved likelihood of the tree failing at the base.

Sean Freeman · 4th June 2008, 03:46 PM

Anyone who is interested by this story check out the local community action group's website West Cross Heritage: OTHER Trees on the site
Its heartening to read that we are not unique in having club handed individuals at the delicate microprocessing controls of urban development.
What a mess, way to get locals on side fell a healthy mature elm tree...like Britain has got lots of those

The more I read the more familiar this sounds

Don't inform, dis-inform, push on regardless, its only one tree (sorry make that 40 trees) we'll plant some more.....

Its a weed..............................no its not
Its going to fall........................no its not
Its poisonous...........................sorry no
Its got got syringes for leaves....get real!
Its not that important...............well looks like it could be one of the first trees to reach Wales from Chile in 1860 planted by a past mayor of Swansea.

It amuses me how the depth of feeling about trees can be so poorly judged by developers/planners etc....
In my experience there are nearly always other options open than removal when it comes to trees and development, it is generally just a matter of $$s. A question of what people value more.

Eric Frei · 4th June 2008, 09:33 PM

Bugger me.

Decision due soon but now they're trumping up "corporate manslaughter" responsibilities.

Monkey puzzle manslaughter fear - icWales

Quote:

Monkey puzzle manslaughter fear

Jun 4 2008 by Robin Turner, Western Mail

A “DANGEROUS” Monkey Puzzle Tree is a threat to children and could land council officers or councillors in jail for manslaughter, planners heard yesterday.

The Monkey Puzzle (Araucaria araucana) has harmed no-one in the 150 years it has stood near Swansea’s seafront at West Cross. A Welsh-medium primary school is being constructed nearby. Council officers now recommend the ancient tree is felled “as soon as possible”.

Reports say the fronds which frequently fall are so sharp they are like “knives” or even “syringe needles”. And it has been said the fruit frequently drops shedding debris “like hand grenades”.

Councillors have heard roots have been weakened meaning it might topple within the next five years.

Yesterday, a supplementary report to Swansea Council’s planning committee said the authority had to consider new Corporate Manslaughter laws. Residents in West Cross have signed a 170 signature petition calling for the tree to be retained.

Shiny asses OUT OF CONTROL!

swansea · 5th June 2008, 05:15 AM

Hi Folks,

I am one of the people involved in campaigning to save this tree. It has received a great deal of publicity world wide.

The councilors on the committee have scheduled a visit to see the tree next week. It is just unbelievable how biased the report to them is. In addition to comparing the leaves to syringe needles they have compared the fruit to "hand grenades". We don't think there are any fruit since the trees are generally single sex and there is no other tree for a great distance.

The latest Press Association story is available on Google news if you wish to see it.

Even at this late stage any expert help would be most welcome.

Sean Freeman · 5th June 2008, 09:48 AM

Its really great that you have dropped in to the forum, as for any advice well you and the group your are part of, have achieved a great deal already in defence of this significant tree.
The syringe and hand grenade nonsense will not get the tree removed but the claims about structural instability might....my advice for what its worth is to contact Brudi & Partner TreeConsult,
Tree Consult
discuss the tree with them, they have good experience in dealing with very similar cases and although not based in the UK may well be able to point you toward Arborists in the UK who are able to carry out a "pull test" on the tree to establish to the satisfaction of a court, just what wind loading the tree would theoretically stand up to.

This kind of testing proved the clincher in the Anne Frank Chestnut court assessment.

newguy18 · 5th June 2008, 01:25 PM

I just got done looking at the pic of that tree,it looks like it would do fine with a canopy raising and thinning.Sean,as for liability two words,eye injury.Thats a garunteed court case.

Sean Freeman · 5th June 2008, 01:39 PM

Bill two words..Reasonable practicability, its the basic tenet of English Law. Is it reasonable or practical to remove all risks of eye injury from any tree?
Sure if there is really low branches then it would be prudent to prune tham away...there are other means of preventing people from walking or running into them though......Basic housekeeping already accepted by the school safety manager, and the community will fulfill their legal obligations.

A hedge of holly, or hawthorn, or brambles, or nettles represents more of a risk of inflicting eye injury to children than this tree.

Trees drop leaves, needles and small deadwood, there is nothing we can do to prevent this natural process impacting on us in some way...if we wish to have the trees in our environment. The level of risk associated with being struck in the eye by falling foliage is so small it would be ridiculous to commit resources to manage that....beyond basic housekeeping.

Eric Frei · 5th June 2008, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swansea

Hi Folks,

I am one of the people involved in campaigning to save this tree. It has received a great deal of publicity world wide.

The councilors on the committee have scheduled a visit to see the tree next week. It is just unbelievable how biased the report to them is. In addition to comparing the leaves to syringe needles they have compared the fruit to "hand grenades". We don't think there are any fruit since the trees are generally single sex and there is no other tree for a great distance.

The latest Press Association story is available on Google news if you wish to see it.

Even at this late stage any expert help would be most welcome.

Thank you for joining and posting, please do keep us up to date and post links to any relevant news items.

This is a very typical case believe it or not.

The removal of a tree for reasons other than tree health.

As professional arborists we face this often. Underlying motivations range from fear (we call it arbor-phobia) to vacant space to build upon.

What has us intrigued is the reasoning, the validifying or some how logically trying to get rid of a healthy tree.

Should this tree be removed for the stated trumped reasons given then I'm sure we can all earn a living trumping up "bogymen" for most trees.

There is little exploratory evidence to support the dubious reasoning of tree failure. Root tracing via air spade etc, vacuum trenching etc to establish what roots if any were cut or compromised.

Also there is little offered for reducing the risk, like pruning and a simple mulched garden beneath fenced off.

In other words as professionals we stand and observe ARBORPHOBIA in full open display with little practical and technical data shown. If this is indeed the future of arboriculture then I shall invest in a crystal ball at the next market stall I attend and put myself on the treasured UK consulting arborists expert list.

swansea · 7th June 2008, 01:40 AM

This is the latest story, below. There is also more on the campaign web site.
West Cross Heritage: Health & Safety man condemns Swansea- letter
Thanks for the Arbor-phobia bit It is useful.

Monkey puzzle manslaughter fear

Jun 4 2008 by Robin Turner, Western Mail

A “DANGEROUS” Monkey Puzzle Tree is a threat to children and could land council officers or councillors in jail for manslaughter, planners heard yesterday.

The Monkey Puzzle (Araucaria araucana) has harmed no-one in the 150 years it has stood near Swansea’s seafront at West Cross. A Welsh-medium primary school is being constructed nearby. Council officers now recommend the ancient tree is felled “as soon as possible”.

Reports say the fronds which frequently fall are so sharp they are like “knives” or even “syringe needles”. And it has been said the fruit frequently drops shedding debris “like hand grenades”.

Councillors have heard roots have been weakened meaning it might topple within the next five years.

Yesterday, a supplementary report to Swansea Council’s planning committee said the authority had to consider new Corporate Manslaughter laws. Residents in West Cross have signed a 170 signature petition calling for the tree to be retained.

newguy18 · 7th June 2008, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Freeman

Bill two words..Reasonable practicability, its the basic tenet of English Law. Is it reasonable or practical to remove all risks of eye injury from any tree?
Sure if there is really low branches then it would be prudent to prune tham away...there are other means of preventing people from walking or running into them though......Basic housekeeping already accepted by the school safety manager, and the community will fulfill their legal obligations.

A hedge of holly, or hawthorn, or brambles, or nettles represents more of a risk of inflicting eye injury to children than this tree.

Trees drop leaves, needles and small deadwood, there is nothing we can do to prevent this natural process impacting on us in some way...if we wish to have the trees in our environment. The level of risk associated with being struck in the eye by falling foliage is so small it would be ridiculous to commit resources to manage that....beyond basic housekeeping.

I'm just saying,we also have to look at what they see.From the pic of the trees i see a tree that needs a canopy raising and a light crown thinning,the council sees a lawsuit waiting to happen.I was in a simaler situation back in march a woman called me about a very large oak[10' in diameter!]that she wanted removed.I looked the tree over and was able to convince her that it was safe and neede no more than the dead wood removed.Its still standing today and i probabley could have made a decent chunk of change off removing it but i saw far more value in leaving it.i would like to see the tree in question remain for many more years myself but once someone like the council is convinced it is a hazard it looks bleak for the tree.

18th May 2008, 09:14 AM	#2
Roller Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Suffolk UK Posts: 143	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La Not much you can say to that, except we live in very funny times.I had the local council bod advise me to take my plum tree down in case the fruit created a slip hazard on a public foot path it over hangs. I told her to go and get stuffed..........

18th May 2008, 10:00 AM	#3
vitex42 Sappling Join Date: May 2008 Location: Auckland, NZ - NHD Forestry ISA Certified Arborist Posts: 35	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La Bunya bunya is Araucaria bidwillii and not Araucaria araucana as reported above.... Some big ones in Auckland and the cones are absolutely alarming in size and weigh about half a kilo. If they hit you they'd kill ya. Trouble is, the tree isn't 'hazardous' unless you're inside the fall zone of the cones. The question is, can the tree be isolated from pedestrians (e.g. by putting a fence around it in cone years)? They don't seem to set cones every year. Follow this link: the cones are bigger than pineapples! Woods: Araucaria I think this tree should be saved, but if so you have to do something about the cones (either prune them off or fence the tree)

18th May 2008, 10:10 AM	#4
Roller Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Suffolk UK Posts: 143	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La I've never ever seen a monkey puzzle set a fruit/cone in this country..

18th May 2008, 10:17 AM	#5
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,820	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La Personally I think they built something as there's mention of that opening and pedestrians and failed to allocate room for the tree or cut it down back then. This is a cock up by council. I'd just love to see a pic and what's going on, considering it's a 150year old maybe healthy tree. Even if it's a Bunya as long as your out of the drip line your OK. As far spikey foliage, well crown lift it you bloody wankers. As far as shedding dead spikey foliage, mulch garden beneath or mow the bloody lawn you wankers. We got Bunyas here, even in the Bot Gardens for crying out loud. Mulch, garden, fancy fence like even rope etc and signs. This isn't rocket science. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

18th May 2008, 10:24 AM	#6
vitex42 Sappling Join Date: May 2008 Location: Auckland, NZ - NHD Forestry ISA Certified Arborist Posts: 35	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La The irony is people hang around buildings with scaffold around them every day and they don't complain about the hazard (even when there's a good chance of being nutted by a dropped hammer)..... Cutting down a tree because it drops leaves is just stupid. If it was a 150 year old building they'd be screaming!

24th May 2008, 10:54 AM	#8
Sean Freeman Monument Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,985	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La Hmmmmmm.....I wonder if it is blocking someone's view? Hypodermic needles my arse!

24th May 2008, 02:54 PM	#9
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,820	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La There's an ever growing implied and ridiculous mentality that we are all stupid, and must be protected from normal natural things because some-one "might" sue. Case after case gets chucked out, but only the cases that are made get aired leaving a distorted perspective. That perspective is then magnified by shiny asses who seldom have interacted with real nature and a public that loves controversy on the front page. Want to see the end of Tabloids and their trash, stop buying them. Humans were born with senses and a brain, I'm sure that most can use them sufficiently without having to eradicate half the stuff on the planet to make it safe. Again, why is society dumbing down? In a nutshell, people are refusing to take responsibility for their own actions and seeking to make profit from their misfortunes. That is supported by huge industries and shiny asses. Just imagine the planet in 100 years time with this stupidity gaining momentum. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

24th May 2008, 05:45 PM	#10
Sean Freeman Monument Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,985	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La Rent out "Idiocracy" for a view on what it'll be like

25th May 2008, 04:09 PM	#11
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: orlando,fl Posts: 4,977	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La Man society really sucks these days,God forbid a kid gets poked by a pine needle[got my first scar a 1 1/2].Even when i was growing up i rode my bike without a helmet,climbed trees unbelayed[we're talking 50-60 feet here],when i was in school if you were in a fight the one who threw the first punch caught the heat[now both kids get suspended]I think its friggin ridiculus to even consider cutting a tree down because someone might get pricked or hit with a pine cone.I have no faith in our[or any] government.everyone is afraid of a lawsuit these days and alot of people have a sue anyone for anythign mentality. __________________ Have your say join us today. old schooler

30th May 2008, 01:55 PM	#13
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: orlando,fl Posts: 4,977	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La i really hope they can save that tree. __________________ Have your say join us today. old schooler

30th May 2008, 02:43 PM	#15
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: orlando,fl Posts: 4,977	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La Yeah sounds like the council is useing[abusing] its power.its gonna open someone's view up. __________________ Have your say join us today. old schooler

3rd June 2008, 09:03 AM	#16
vitex42 Sappling Join Date: May 2008 Location: Auckland, NZ - NHD Forestry ISA Certified Arborist Posts: 35	Re: Local Residents’ Action Group This is a really brilliant rebuttal from the citizens action group. Interestingly, the consultant used by the Council is supposedly a byword in 'state of the art' tree hazard assessment, and this just shows how good a commonsense rebuttal can be. All you have to do is make sure of your facts, and stick to your guns. I know from years of experience that it is much easier to condemn a tree through its faults than to protect it. Arborists are kinda conditioned to err on the side of caution. We're also guilty of using smoke-and-mirrors reports that say nothing and are littered with jargon. I reckon the simpler and clearer arborists are in their reporting, the better the trees are served. I think it is occasionally appropriate to tell the public to Harden Up....

3rd June 2008, 11:52 AM	#17
Sean Freeman Monument Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,985	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La Whilst it is possible that Jeremy Barrell actually visited the site and wrote the report it is unlikely....more likely one of the consulting Arborists working in his company did. Doesn't deflect any criticism of the poor quality of the reporting and the very dubious conclusions, and that as the head of the company he should have to wear the resulting flack. You are quite correct vitex42, it is one of the most effectively constructed defences for retention of a tree I have read...good on them. I totally agree with you too that as Arborists we are often guilty of focussing on the minutia of "defects" that are normal within the structure and function of trees. My gut feeling has been from the outset that this particular instance is being driven by motivations far removed from Health and Safety.

4th June 2008, 01:30 PM	#20
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: orlando,fl Posts: 4,977	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La I think the answer was in the first post. quote,The report also warns the council could be held liable if anyone was hurt by falling needles. unquote. What do you guys think? __________________ Have your say join us today. old schooler

4th June 2008, 03:20 PM	#21
Sean Freeman Monument Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,985	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La Its fine to write whatever you like in a report, but councils in the UK just like anywhere these days have good experience at being targets for claims against them. Falling foliage even firm spikey foliage does not represent an unacceptable risk of harm, not even on the radar...you'd be laughed out of court, and then have to pay the costs! Risk is not the driver here, individuals that have a wierd world view with leverage in council...perhaps. The Arb report from Barrell consultants doesn't talk about needles, it focuses on root damage and the percieved likelihood of the tree failing at the base.

4th June 2008, 03:46 PM	#22
Sean Freeman Monument Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,985	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La Anyone who is interested by this story check out the local community action group's website West Cross Heritage: OTHER Trees on the site Its heartening to read that we are not unique in having club handed individuals at the delicate microprocessing controls of urban development. What a mess, way to get locals on side fell a healthy mature elm tree...like Britain has got lots of those The more I read the more familiar this sounds Don't inform, dis-inform, push on regardless, its only one tree (sorry make that 40 trees) we'll plant some more..... Its a weed..............................no its not Its going to fall........................no its not Its poisonous...........................sorry no Its got got syringes for leaves....get real! Its not that important...............well looks like it could be one of the first trees to reach Wales from Chile in 1860 planted by a past mayor of Swansea. It amuses me how the depth of feeling about trees can be so poorly judged by developers/planners etc.... In my experience there are nearly always other options open than removal when it comes to trees and development, it is generally just a matter of $$s. A question of what people value more.

5th June 2008, 05:15 AM	#24
swansea Sappling Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Wales Posts: 7	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La Hi Folks, I am one of the people involved in campaigning to save this tree. It has received a great deal of publicity world wide. The councilors on the committee have scheduled a visit to see the tree next week. It is just unbelievable how biased the report to them is. In addition to comparing the leaves to syringe needles they have compared the fruit to "hand grenades". We don't think there are any fruit since the trees are generally single sex and there is no other tree for a great distance. The latest Press Association story is available on Google news if you wish to see it. Even at this late stage any expert help would be most welcome.

5th June 2008, 09:48 AM	#25
Sean Freeman Monument Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,985	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La Its really great that you have dropped in to the forum, as for any advice well you and the group your are part of, have achieved a great deal already in defence of this significant tree. The syringe and hand grenade nonsense will not get the tree removed but the claims about structural instability might....my advice for what its worth is to contact Brudi & Partner TreeConsult, Tree Consult discuss the tree with them, they have good experience in dealing with very similar cases and although not based in the UK may well be able to point you toward Arborists in the UK who are able to carry out a "pull test" on the tree to establish to the satisfaction of a court, just what wind loading the tree would theoretically stand up to. This kind of testing proved the clincher in the Anne Frank Chestnut court assessment.

5th June 2008, 01:25 PM	#26
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: orlando,fl Posts: 4,977	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La I just got done looking at the pic of that tree,it looks like it would do fine with a canopy raising and thinning.Sean,as for liability two words,eye injury.Thats a garunteed court case. __________________ Have your say join us today. old schooler

5th June 2008, 01:39 PM	#27
Sean Freeman Monument Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,985	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La Bill two words..Reasonable practicability, its the basic tenet of English Law. Is it reasonable or practical to remove all risks of eye injury from any tree? Sure if there is really low branches then it would be prudent to prune tham away...there are other means of preventing people from walking or running into them though......Basic housekeeping already accepted by the school safety manager, and the community will fulfill their legal obligations. A hedge of holly, or hawthorn, or brambles, or nettles represents more of a risk of inflicting eye injury to children than this tree. Trees drop leaves, needles and small deadwood, there is nothing we can do to prevent this natural process impacting on us in some way...if we wish to have the trees in our environment. The level of risk associated with being struck in the eye by falling foliage is so small it would be ridiculous to commit resources to manage that....beyond basic housekeeping.

7th June 2008, 01:40 AM	#29
swansea Sappling Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Wales Posts: 7	Re: UK Arborists\| Tree ambiguity\| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross La This is the latest story, below. There is also more on the campaign web site. West Cross Heritage: Health & Safety man condemns Swansea- letter Thanks for the Arbor-phobia bit It is useful. Monkey puzzle manslaughter fear Jun 4 2008 by Robin Turner, Western Mail A “DANGEROUS” Monkey Puzzle Tree is a threat to children and could land council officers or councillors in jail for manslaughter, planners heard yesterday. The Monkey Puzzle (Araucaria araucana) has harmed no-one in the 150 years it has stood near Swansea’s seafront at West Cross. A Welsh-medium primary school is being constructed nearby. Council officers now recommend the ancient tree is felled “as soon as possible”. Reports say the fronds which frequently fall are so sharp they are like “knives” or even “syringe needles”. And it has been said the fruit frequently drops shedding debris “like hand grenades”. Councillors have heard roots have been weakened meaning it might topple within the next five years. Yesterday, a supplementary report to Swansea Council’s planning committee said the authority had to consider new Corporate Manslaughter laws. Residents in West Cross have signed a 170 signature petition calling for the tree to be retained.

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