Government wanting to faze out Regular Unleaded Petrol

Brodie

Im not sure if this topic has been covered but I couldn't find anything so here goes.

After accidentally running fuel with an ethanol mix I noticed quite substantial differences in the power output of my saws and also made note that the saws were running hotter and spark plugs were becoming fouled up quicker.
Im have no doubt that others out there have either experienced the same or know the affects of the fuel mix.

Having said this Stihl has stated somewhere cant find the actual documentation that their machines can run on ethanol mix. Im not overly convinced with that but they do manufacture the machines so I guess they would know best.

Having noticed many service stations around my area putting up signs indication they would only be selling ethanol mixed fuels. So I emailed Caltex as this is where I have seen such signage and this is their reply.

So I thought it was a good bit of information to share with you guys. If I am wrong in any way or you have different information I invite you to share and better inform me.

Eric Frei

I avoid that stuff like the plague .... did you also hear about the fact that removing lead from petrol is partly the cause of global climate change?

True.

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Jeff Darby

And it wasn't that long ago they were prosecuting garage owners for doing the very same thing...but now they mandate it..?????

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Eric Frei

Those shonks in Sydney were putting thinners in, remember. Mainly errr .... ethnic owners.

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Jeff Darby

OK, I thought it was ethenol ?? thinners...mmm. my bad..

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Victor Lindsay

I've incurred repairs because of ethenol. I use the no ethenol...3.20 per gal here in florida. They didn't think this ethenol change through. they will get it right, but it will cost us.

Brodie

Your right JayD they did a very big name and shame on service station using the blended fuel.

jeffswede

We use 92 octane and dont believe in man made global warming.
Jeff
All is good,

windthrown

Ethanol will not effect global warming, man made or not. Burning E-10 produces about the same amount of CO2 as gas does. Ethanol lowers levels of smog and theoretially reduces the dependance on oil from abroad.

Beware of ethanol in gas though. That stuff sucks. We have E-10 (10% ethanol) gas here now by law and I get way worse gas milage in my truck and noticably less power using it in my truck and in my saws. I go to another state to get lower ethanol premium gas (5%) for my chainsaws. I also use StaBil gasoline addative in the stuff to avoid all the issues with ethanol (mainly absorbing water and phase separating). Its killing marine engines here and fast. It also corrodes aluminum parts and eats certain types of gaskets. It also leads to a leaner burning saw so you need to retune them to ethanol gas if you have to use that crap (like I have to here).

Read: AVOID!

Eric Frei

The "experts" say that it burns more efficiently and cleaner plus raises octane rating. If so why the hell does my car ping like shit on it and it's gutless and less milage per gallon.

Because that E-10 is shit, period.

I have to run on premium unlead (98 Octane)

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Brodie

Had word from Stihl Australia basically what they said was that their machines can run on either ethanol or premium fuels with carbie adjustments as per specifications. I have attached the document that Stilh sent me hope it helps.

Attached Files

DLR-2006-02-E10-Ethanol-Fuel-Guidelines.pdf (29.7 KB, 166 views)

Brodie

Still given this information I still dont want to go anywhere near that ethanol stuff its rubbish.

windthrown

The octane rating does not have anything to do with the energy available in gasoline. Octane is a rating of even burning in gas, or put another way, the ability to avoid pre-ignition and engine knock. The reason high octane gas can result in more power is that it allows for having higher compression engines with a more advanced ignition timing that will result in more power without self-destructing from knock. This is opposed to the Cetane rating of diesel, as diesel engines constantly knock because they fire from self-ignition (no spark plug ot ignition system in a diesel). In diesel you want the fuel to ignite easy, and in gasoline you do not. Diesel has more energy than gas does, becasue the molecules in diesel fuel are larger than the ones in gasoline, and the compression ratio on diesel engines is far higher than for gasoline engines.

Ethanol has higher octane than gasoline becasue it burns evenly. So does Propane. Ethanol has an octane rating of 129 and propane has an octane of 110. Gasoline is a blend that consists of hydrocarbons with between 4 and 12 carbon atoms per molecule. There is a lot of propane in there, as well as butane for higher octane. Adding ethanol also increases the octane in gas. But there is less energy available in ethanol than in gasoline. Ethanol has 60% of the energy of pure gas. So E-10 (10% ethanol blended gas) will get you 4% less power, and 4% less gas milage than pure gasoline. Its noticable in my truck on both counts.

As for knock, ethanol blended gas should not knock. However, gas intended to blend with ethanol has way less octane than gas intended to be sold as pure gas. That stuff is cheaper to make too, and should cost less. But it does not. Gas refined here for pure gas at the pump has way higher octane than gas made for ethanol blending, becasue adding ethanol drags up the octane rating. It is causing a problem here, becasue they passed the law last year that all gas here had to be E-10 (10% ethanol). So the refineries make lower grade premium gas stock for ethanol blending. Now that they passed the law from protests from the marine engine people to allow for premium non-ethanol gas, there is no raw stock to make any non-ethanol premium fuel from. Its all crap lower octane stock from the refinery intended to be blended with ethanol to raise the octane.

Ethanol sould only be in one place: in booze!

windthrown

The other aspect of ethanol is that it is an oxygenagte for burning gasoline. Meaning that there is an oxygen atom in the ethanol molecule that prevents certain molecules from forming when the gasoline is burned. Gas itself has only hydrogen and carbon atoms. Burned alone, pure gas generates more carbon monoxide (CO) and leave more unburned fuel in the exhaust. Adding oxygen results in more complete burning, and adds more oxygen in the mix so that more CO2 molecules are made rather than CO molecules. This results in a huge reduction in smog.

In places like Los Angeles, they have found that a 2% oxygen by weight is the optimum for complete gas burning and smog reduction. That equates to a 5.6% blend of ethanol in gas. For that reason a lot of ethanol gas is a 4-6% ethanol blend, resulting in a 2% drop in power, rather than a 4% drop as seen with E-10 (10% ethanol). Oregon went to full E-10 to 'save the planet' in some round-about BS politics by the corn/ethanol lobby, and the greenies here. They went overboard in an illusional quest for the state to become 10% energy independant by a specific time (thinking that 10% ethanol is 10% energy savings). Sadly the math just does not work out so well when you factor in that ethanol only has 60% of the power of pure gas. So they are only 6% energy independant with 10% ethanol. I would point this out to them, but then they would more than likely want to raise the ethanol here to 17% to meet their 10% goal.

dov

There was a big thing in Vic a few years ago when Toluene was found in petrol in several places. That stuff will rot your motor apparently.

Alcohol in fuel is another thing. When I was in NSW a few months back, I had to drive around for ages to find a petrol station that had regular unleaded. I was just about to head back to Melbourne, so there was no way I was putting ethanol laced fuel in the tank for the first time. There were tests done in the 90's down here by the government running Falcons on ethanol laced fuel - with noticeable performance issues proven.

Another interesting thing I've noticed - all of the bowsers in Vic that pump Ethanol blend have to carry a notice saying that using ethanol blend might affect fuel consumption. How is that good for the environment? Surely the more efficiently your motor runs, the less pollution emitted?

In short, I won't touch Ethanol Blend in any way shape of form. It's a con by the loony green fringe who have joined forces with the powerful sugar-cane lobby.

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Excalibur

From personal experience I have run E10 enthanol blend in Fords and Holdens, even when in Western Queensland where it can be 300klms between towns and out of mobile phone range, and not a problem. Fuel usage can be just as, if not more effected by tyre pressures and or head winds. Modern electronic fuel injection engines will self tune to cover different fuels, even the old basic electronic ignition could cover bad plugs on cars. Ethanol will make the fuel thinner, so about the only effect it might have on an engine is maybe leak from an old gasket, but even that is in the extreme.

As for saws, even when lead fuel was still available, I made the change to lead free fuel, as when operating big saws you are often sucking the fumes from them, so I decided for my own health to drop the lead. Occasionally the lead would build up on the plug and cause a massive back fire. The Stihl 090's I was using would actually run a grey pipe on lead fuel, similar to a car on a good run! Once I even had water leak into a 20 litre fuel drum, but had no choice one day so used it in the saw. I ended up using all 20 litres of milky fuel through my 090, and it didn't even miss a beat, although an 090 flat out I would imagine would just about burn anything.

Just my observations.

Excalibur

Paul Toivonen

Another thing about ethanol (dont know if it has been posted?) is yes, it raises the octane rating but; Only if you run a rich mixture.
The reason is;
Ethanol burns at a much lower temp to gasoline, so to get the same power you need to feed it more.
If you run a normal mixture with it you are effectively running it lean, hence the pinging.
If you have a carb system with needles and jets, adjustment is easy.(say a chainsaw) An EFI engine would need re-mapping.
Personally, I avoid it. Bring back Super!