Council ignored warning over trees before Victoria bushfires

Eric Frei · 12th February 2009, 08:01 PM

When you are forced to have trees ........

Council ignored warning over trees before Victoria bushfires | The Australian

Quote:

THE shire council covering some of the areas hit hardest by the bushfires was warned five years ago that its policy of encouraging people to grow trees near their homes to give the appearance of a forest would lead to disaster.

One of Australia's leading bushfire experts, Rod Incoll, warned Nillumbik Shire Council in a 2003 report that it risked devastation if it went ahead with changes to planning laws proposed by green groups that restricted the removal of vegetation.

Mr Incoll, the Victorian fire chief from 1990 to 1996, and David Packham, a former CSIRO bushfire scientist and academic who also produced a report on the issue, argued against the regulations, which actively encouraged the builders of new homes to plant trees around the houses for aesthetic reasons.

Mr Incoll told The Australian yesterday the proposed planning rules were "foolhardy and dangerous and ought not to be proceeded with".

"But they were nevertheless instituted," he said. "That is certainly one of the things that people will be looking at as an aftermath of this tragic event."

Mr Packham, now an honorary senior research fellow at Monash University's school of geography and environmental science, wrote in his report, after inspecting the Kinglake to Heidelberg Road: "The mix of fuel, unsafe roadsides and embedded houses, some with zero protection and no hope of survival, will all ensure that when a large fire impinges upon the area a major disaster will result."

Mr Incoll said that in 2003, green groups were pushing for changes to planning laws that included restrictions on the removal of vegetation, "and worse still, the requirement for planting vegetation around and almost over houses, as part of any planning permit to build a house in the shire of Nillumbik, so it gave the appearance from the outside of being a forest".

In 2003, the Nillumbik Ratepayers Group asked Mr Incoll to assess the bushfire risk, and the proposed planning rules.

Council elections were looming, and planning was a major issue. "The green group carried the day in council and the rules came to pass," he said.

Nillumbik Shire councillors, many of whom were last night attending community meetings across the region, declined to comment.

The councillors said it would be inappropriate to speak about a six-year-old report when bushfires were still raging in the area and a royal commission had been announced.

Nillumbik shire calls itself the "green wedge shire". It extends from the Yarra River, on the northwest outskirts of Melbourne to Kinglake National Park. Its villages include Eltham, Hurstbridge, St Andrews, Strathewen and the outskirts of Kinglake.

Mr Incoll and Mr Packham both produced reports for the group. "There was a planning process under the auspices of the state planning authority, and David (Packham) and I gave lengthy evidence," Mr Incoll said.

"They took no notice whatsoever of what we said."

The reports on Nillumbik shire were not the first to warn of the increased bushfire risk associated with failing to manage vegetation around towns.

Victoria's auditor-general warned 17 years ago that a failure to carry out controlled burn-offs placed the state at risk of bushfires. In a 1992 report to parliament, the auditor-general criticised the Department of Conservation and Environment for letting combustible material build up on the forest floor.

"The failure of the department to achieve its planned fuel reduction burns each year has resulted in an increasing accumulation of fuel on forest floors," the report stated. "This makes Victoria's forests and protected lands more susceptible to the occurrence offires."

The report said the department was not burning in "priority1 zones" because they were too close to houses".

"Those areas warranting the highest level of protection to human life, property and public assets had in fact received the lowest level of protection," it said.

The auditor-general's audit found "fuel loads" of combustible material on the forest floors in the range of 20 to 60 tonnes a hectare in the Alexandra and Orbost regions and at Blackwood near Geelong - seven times higher than the department's target.

Mr Incoll said the CSIRO had put out excellent plain-English publications on building safety standards for bushfire-prone areas and that the Country Fire Authority was doing a good job of public education. After the Ash Wednesday fires, fire researcher Andrew Wilson had produced the CSIRO House Survival Meter, a simple calculator to determine the chances of a house surviving a bushfire.

"That, plus the CSIRO information, plus the CFA information, should have and would have been sufficient to prevent most of these unfortunate deaths. It falls down somewhere around the implementation," Mr Incoll said.

He said one of the commonsense rules was not having a tree within a tree height and a half from the house - about 50m.

"People had vegetation growing up in their eves. Vegetation clearance wasn't observed. People didn't understand the threat or believe the threat."

Some areas had very strict controls about the removal of vegetation, "trees being the holy green icon", he said. "Removal of trees is quite an effort in many municipalities and Nillumbik is one of them."

Mr Incoll said he had always worried about the flee-early-or-fight message.

"An untrained person who has never seen a fire like that, and hasn't properly prepared their house, has really got no hope in the teeth of a fire like that if they cop the full force of it," he said, referring to Saturday's fire.

He was hopeful that the royal commission announced on Monday would result in "a collection of all the wisdom that has been gathered over the years".

Garry Brockley · 12th February 2009, 09:38 PM

unbelievable why do the authorities believe they know better than the experts on the subject, i find this happens world wide and noone ever learns the lesson until now maybe, i hope they learn alot from this and implement the needed changes country wide.

Bruce Hopf · 13th February 2009, 05:53 AM

If I were Members of any of those People Killed, I'd go after

the Members of that Counsel, for everything that they were Worth, and then some.
As Far as I'm concerned, they

should be Held Accountable for the Blaze as well as the

culprit, that Set the Fire as well. Bruce.

Eric Frei · 14th February 2009, 09:15 PM

Property owners say it's time for a tree chop - The Geelong Advertiser

February 14th, 2009

PROPERTY owners who successfully fended off the blazes that ravaged central Victoria say our region should change its approach to tree clearing or perish.

Strath Creek Pub owner, 65-year-old Harry Harvey, sheltered a group of townsfolk in his establishment as fire ravaged the region.

Mr Harvey says they survived by the skin of their teeth with the blaze getting within a couple of hundred metres of the pub, protected only by being in an area cleared of trees and by the top work of the local CFA.

"If it had have gone any further the pub would have gone up," he says.

But he is critical of restrictions regarding clearing that he says have created a danger zone in many parts of Victoria.

"The fire swept through all the undergrowth. But you are not allowed to touch it because there might be a lizard living in it. I can't understand why people think more of trees than human life," Mr Harvey said. "I'm deadset against greenies."

Mr Harvey said the locals who survived are those who cleared.

"The bloke up the road got fined. But he survived," he said referring to neighbour Liam Sheahan.

With relatives in Geelong, he knows the region well and says Geelong needs to pay heed to what he has seen.

"You see plenty of places that could go up," he said.

Meanwhile, Karen King of Gippsland tells a similar story.

Mrs King saw a giant flame walking its way across the hills of Hazelwood towards her property last Saturday. King now has no doubt what stopped it in its tracks.

"Having the trees at a distance from the house kept the flames away," she says in a matter of fact way.

"Deadset that is what saved us."

King and her husband Cameron teamed with their neighbours to save their brick home. Flames burnt to within 50cm of their back door but they fought them off.

She said the fact there were no overhanging trees made the battle one of fending off embers and not a direct fire.

King says many of her neighbours have learned the lesson and are doing what they said they should have done years ago.

"We know of people down here who are now getting bulldozers out to clear all the trees directly near their property. They know the danger of having the trees around them," she said.

Bruce Hopf · 15th February 2009, 12:15 AM

I find this very Sad. There are way to Many Green Piercers in the World, that don't think of what could happen if a Situation Occurs like this. They are more Concerned with Animal Life, than Human Life.
The Pub Owner Basically said if the Undergrowth was clear, the Fire would have been such a Blaze, like it is now.
Even the Woman stated, that they watched the Fire Stop in it's Tracks, because it didn't have any more Fuel to keep it going.
The very Sad thing about this, is it will happen again, and again, because Some People will never Learn from this. Governments are always afraid, what the Cost would be, to have something like this kept under Control. The Cost would have been a lot Cheaper in the Long Run, to keep things Clear of Under Brush, than leave it to Fuel and Inferno.
Now for the

Jerk who lit the Fire. They should place a few Tires over his Head, with his Body Inserted in the Tires, Douse the Tires with Gas, and throw a Match. Let him know what it feels like to be Burned to Death, like he did to How Many People? Just what the

Deserves. Shooting the

as far as I'm Concerned, is not Good Enough. That is Too

Easy of a way out for a Person like this, and so is Prison. Bruce.

newguy18 · 15th February 2009, 12:24 AM

I'd like to get my hands on the arsonist for about an hour or two,in my neck of the woods,none can hear you scream,and i they do,they ignore it.

Eric Frei · 16th February 2009, 08:31 PM

Quote:

it is not arsonists who should be hanging from lamp-posts but greenies.

Quote:

Governments … have been in too much of a rush to appease green idealism

Source: Green ideas must take blame for deaths | smh.com.au

Link to 2005 CSIRO PDF on climate change and bushfire intensity.
http://www.cmar.csiro.au/e-print/ope...sykj_2005b.pdf

Jeff Darby · 17th February 2009, 10:09 AM

What ever happened to the lessons of Ash Wednesday?? Remember that tragic fire?

Eric Frei · 17th February 2009, 04:55 PM

JayD,

CSIRO document about bushfires.

In another thread I loaded a BOM PDF about storm intensities in SEQ.

But the greenies still stick by their guns, and take away peoples rights to do as they choose with their trees.

These documents come from reliable sources not rednecks!

Fresh in.

Trees are valuable, in the right place | theage.com.au

Quote:

Trees are valuable, in the right place

Peter Ker
February 17, 2009

ONE of the world's leading thinkers on the economic benefits of trees in urban landscapes has conceded that vegetation can be a danger and a liability when grown in the wrong place.

Dr Greg McPherson, whose revolutionary work has influenced the environmental policies of New York City mayor Michael Bloomberg, said major disasters such as hurricane Katrina and last week's devastating bushfires were a reminder that while trees created economic advantages for cities, they still needed to be kept in control.

"Like anything else, the wrong tree in the wrong place can be a liability and a threat, so we have to be really mindful about the trees we select and where we put them," he told The Age yesterday, at the start of his Australian visit.

Dr McPherson is best known for his argument that trees create economic benefits far beyond their cost to cities. Applied to New York City, Dr McPherson calculated that for every dollar spent on trees, more than five dollars was saved across a range of expenses including energy bills and stormwater contamination.

Urban land clearing has become an important issue in the wake of the bushfires, with councils such as Nillumbik in the north-eastern suburbs being criticised for refusing to allow residents to clear vegetation around homes.

Dr McPherson, who will speak at a forestation conference in Canberra today, said the "full range of benefits and costs" had to be considered when choosing where to plant trees.

Eric Frei · 17th February 2009, 07:41 PM

Source: Fined for illegal clearing, family now feel vindicated - National News - National - General - The Canberra Times

Quote:

"We've lost two people in my family because you dickheads won't cut trees down"

The full story is below.

Fined for illegal clearing, family now feel vindicated

Quote:

RICHARD BAKER AND NICK MCKENZIE
17/02/2009 1:01:00 PM

They were labelled law breakers, fined $50,000 and left emotionally and financially drained.

But seven years after the Sheahans bulldozed trees to make a fire break — an act that got them dragged before a magistrate and penalised — they feel vindicated. Their house is one of the few in Reedy Creek, Victoria, still standing.

The Sheahans' 2004 court battle with the Mitchell Shire Council for illegally clearing trees to guard against fire, as well as their decision to stay at home and battle the weekend blaze, encapsulate two of the biggest issues arising from the bushfire tragedy.

Do Victoria's native vegetation management policies need a major overhaul? And should families risk injury or death by staying home to fight the fire rather than fleeing?

Anger at government policies stopping residents from cutting down trees and clearing scrub to protect their properties is already apparent. "We've lost two people in my family because you dickheads won't cut trees down," Warwick Spooner told Nillumbik Mayor Bo Bendtsen at a meeting on Tuesday night.

Although Liam Sheahan's 2002 decision to disregard planning laws and bulldoze 250 trees on his hilltop property hurt his family financially and emotionally, he believes it helped save them and their home on the weekend.

"The house is safe because we did all that," he said as he pointed out his kitchen window to the clear ground where tall gum trees once cast a shadow on his house.

"We have got proof right here. We are the only house standing in a two-kilometre area."

At least seven houses and several sheds on neighbouring properties along Thompson-Spur road in Reedy Creek were destroyed by Saturday night's blaze.

Saving their home was no easy task. At 2pm on Saturday, Mr Sheahan saw the nearby hills ablaze.

He knew what lay ahead when the predicted south-westerly change came.

The family of four had discussed evacuation but decided their property was defensible, due largely to their decision to clear a fire break. It also helped that Mr Sheahan, his son Rowan and daughter Kirsten were all experienced members of the local CFA.

"We prayed and we worked bloody hard. Our house was lit up eight times by the fire as the front passed," Mr Sheahan said. "The elements off our TV antenna melted. We lost a Land Rover, two Subarus, a truck and trailer and two sheds."

Mr Sheahan is still angry about his prosecution, which cost him $100,000 in fines and legal fees. The council's planning laws allow trees to be cleared only when they are within six metres of a house. Mr Sheahan cleared trees up to 100 metres away from his house.

"The council stood up in court and made us to look like the worst, wanton environmental vandals on the earth. We've got thousands of trees on our property. We cleared about 247," he said.

He said the royal commission on the fires must result in changes to planning laws to allow land owners to clear trees and vegetation that pose a fire risk.

"Both the major parties are pandering to the Greens for preferences and that is what is causing the problem. Common sense isn't that common these days," Mr Sheahan said.

Melbourne University bushfire expert Kevin Tolhurst gave evidence to help the Sheahan family in their legal battle with the council.

"Their fight went over nearly two years. The Sheahans were victimised. It wasn't morally right," he said yesterday.

Dr Tolhurst told the Seymour Magistrates court that Mr Sheahan's clearing of the trees had reduced the fire risk to his house from extreme to moderate.

"That their house is still standing is some natural justice for the Sheahans," he said.

He said council vegetation management rules required re-writing. He also called on the State Government to provide clearer guidelines about when families should stay and defend their property.

Houses in fire-prone areas should be audited by experts to advise owners whether their property is defensible, Dr Tolhurst said.

Mr Sheahan said he wanted others to learn from his experience and offered an invitation for Government ministers to visit his property.

He would also like his convictions overturned and fines repaid.

"It would go a long way to making us feel better about the system. But I don't think it will happen."

After suffering court action that cost the family $100,000, Liam Sheahan believes clearing trees saved his home and his family. Photo: Paul Rovere

Bruce Hopf · 17th February 2009, 11:22 PM

I hate to say it, but when it comes to Government, Things will never Change. They do not know how to use Common Sense Period. I also hate to say this, but I think that those People that lost their Lives, Died in Vain. I hope that I'm Wrong, and that Policies do Change. I hope that the Rowan Family gets back their Money, that they Spent for Lawyers, and Fines. But when it comes to Government, they do not like to be Wrong. Bruce.

Eric Frei · 23rd March 2009, 08:44 AM

Tree debris made town a 'death trap' - National - Home - brisbanetimes.com.au

Quote:

TOWERING roadside gums and a lack of fuel reduction burning turned the major road that leads to the Victorian town of Flowerdale into a "death trap", a bushfire Royal Commission community meeting was told yesterday. Eight people died there during the fires.

Before the meeting - closed to the media - Flowerdale resident Pat Cowman said that while she had successfully defended her home of 35 years, she would never stay back and fight another fire because Victoria's Department of Sustainability and Environment regularly refused to clear tree debris.

Mrs Cowman attacked the department. "My house is right up the creek and the fire just roared around it. They [the DSE] just poison the fuel and leave it dry," she said. "We kept telling them to burn but they did nothing. [The Whittlesea-Yea Road] became a death trap during the fire. A mother and her two kids were lost there. You ask the DSE about that and they pass the buck to VicRoads."

Bruce Hopf · 23rd March 2009, 12:56 PM

As far as I'm concerned, if everything, and was Properly cleared handled Properly in the First Place this Fire could have been just Minor, instead of what had Happened. I feel that everyone involved in Not Taking Heed to any of the Warnings here by the Residence should be held Accountable

, and Put into

. Bruce.

Eric Frei · 23rd March 2009, 08:05 PM

I assure you, greenies, tree huggers and ecologist are the main culprits of mass stupidity.

Most are younger than 30 with little real world experience sitting on their office chairs shining up their backsides.... aka shiny asses.

Experts in dictating their tunnel visioned education at main stream society, taking security in public paying positions where little financial impact of poor decisions will reflect on them personally, I know, I deal with them daily.

Bruce Hopf · 25th March 2009, 05:25 AM

Ekka.
I don't know how you feel, but I think that a lot of People in this World, should have their Heads Bashed Together. Just maybe that would Knock some Sence it a Few Heads,

, or would that be expecting too much?

Bruce.

Eric Frei · 10th April 2009, 12:37 PM

Fire settlement's tree-lined roads became a death trap | theage.com.au

Quote:

Strathewen resident Bill Putt at Arthurs Creek yesterday before he spoke to the Bushfires Royal Commission.

Fire settlement's tree-lined roads became a death trap

-------------------------------

Dewi Cooke and Karen Kissane
April 9, 2009

TREES were the only thing on Bill Putt's mind yesterday as he prepared to speak at the royal commission on the Victorian bushfires.

Strathewen, the tiny settlement where Mr Putt and his partner Rosemary lived, was surrounded by them - eucalypt, blackwood and pine - but he says it was these very trees, which lined the roads into Strathewen, that put his life at risk on Black Saturday.

Rosemary, an artist, had already left their mudbrick home for safer ground before the fire hit, but Mr Putt, who is better known to Australian music fans as bass guitarist in 1970s prog-rock band Spectrum, stayed to defend their property.

"I initially tried to get out but couldn't because there were trees across the road so I turned around to come back but couldn't get all the way to the house because trees were across the road again," he said.

Clambering over the fallen trunks, Mr Putt believed he beat the fire before it reached his home with two minutes to spare.

With wheelie bins and buckets filled with water he managed to save the house but their studios, equipment and two other cottages were reduced to ash. He told the final royal commission community consultation in Arthurs Creek yesterday there needed to be a tree's length clearance along roads so that lives were not jeopardised in the manner his was.

The death toll from the fires at Strathewen, population about 200, was 27. Mr Putt said he and Rosemary knew 26 of those who died.

"We're greenies, but when it comes to human life that comes first," he said.

Local Peter Jenkinson agreed. "There's not that many roads in and out of Strathewen," he said.

"A large tree fell in one that was an escape route, and that was the demise of two people that I personally found."

For Lorraine Tully and many others, communication on the day was key.

She said every bush home should have a CFA scanner, a device which she credited with saving her life and those of several neighbours.

She sat at home with the scanner, hearing reports of the fire's progress and the frantic tone of maydays on nearby roads, then called neighbours who sheltered at her home while the fire front passed. "Scanners are pivotal," she said.

The ferocity of the fire still haunts Norma and Laurence Nelson, Strathewen residents and farmers for 54 years.

They lost everything - their house on their a 130-hectare property, cattle, lemon orchard and tools. They survived the inferno by jumping into their pool.

"We were prepared for a bushfire, we weren't prepared for what came over that hill," Mrs Nelson said.

Applications to formally appear before the Bushfires Royal Commission close at 4pm today. Submissions are due by May 18.

Sunraysia Tree Solutions · 18th April 2009, 09:35 PM

Has anyone thought about the Dandenongs near Melbourne ?

Acemaster stomping ground, I have read reports dated as far back as the 1960's stating no more houses should be built up there because of the fire risk , there was a fire near upway this year and one on the basin side in 1998 and one in ferny crk in 1995 i think, yet every time i visit my mate in Selby there's more houses on even steeper blocks and more traffic on narrow roads. I know there will be a bushfire up there again and I'm afraid it will make black saturday look like a nice day out.

timscott · 11th July 2009, 04:43 PM

Once again someone in office with pencil trying to keep his job influencing others lives.
If they rebuild with trees surrounding homes still, no insurance none! people don't learn NSW, VIC fires repeat and repeat every 20 years or so.

This makes me very angry that we will (the rest of australia) will pay for this.
Yes we need trees but not all over every house as was the case in VIC bush fires.

booster · 9th August 2009, 10:11 AM

unbelievable why do the authorities believe they know better than the experts on the subject, i find this happens world wide and noone ever learns the lesson until now maybe, i hope they learn alot from this and implement the needed changes country wide.

Bruce Hopf · 9th August 2009, 10:35 AM

I could be wrong here, but wouldn't it help if every year or so, have a controlled burn, to prevent a wild fire? I remember in the late 70's, they were doing a lot of experiments along the west coasts of Canada, and the US, to try and prevent the big fires. Mabey Windthrown (if he posted to this thread), can clarify this for me, or someone else could. Thanks. Bruce.

Apocalypsse · 9th August 2009, 07:58 PM

Local councils are responsible for authorising controlled burns. but they keep getting hammered by the greenie groups that controlled burns are super bad and that they will never seen the end to protests and crap like that if they decide to do the burns. Now they have gotten off their asses a bit and started doing more burns.

Bruce Hopf · 9th August 2009, 11:22 PM

If I was on Council, and I was approached by these so called Greene groups

, I'd ask what they would rather have, Controlled Burns, or more devastation like this fire, and I'd say to them, that the Next Fire could destroy a Family Member's home, or even worse, they could be burned to death, like so many of those people that did burn to death in this fire.

Everyone knows, or should know, that the vegetation will grow back after a fire has gone through, but with a controlled fire, wouldn't there be less damage than a wild fire like this? Thanks. Bruce.

ejrea · 17th September 2009, 06:04 PM

I realise that this thread is quite old now, but I have only just signed up, and really couldn't let it go after I had read some of the comments.
I work in the Dandenongs and was heavily involved in the fire cleanup. As most of you don't seem to come from the area I will let you know a few facts.
There were houses that burnt down without a tree in sight. In fact one guy had a single tree on 2 acres and still lost his house, and then there is the place that has been in the papers a few times with forest up 2 meters of house that went through the fire twice, when it came through the first time and then again when the wind changed. The house is still standing and the thing that nearly burnt it down was the cars exploding in the carport.
The difference is that the house that survived was built over and above the standard for fire risk areas.
These forests are some of the most beautiful in the country, but they are also THE most flammable. Regnans only germinate after a MASSIVE fire event, and they have been due for one for some decades now. If people choose to live in this sort of landscape then they have to be well and truly aware of what they are signing up to.
I don't think that it is permissable to destroy this landscape for the rest of us because some people have decided to live there.
I have family who live up there, and I have lived up there in the past as well, and really there is no way that I would choose to stay and defend on a day like that day. It wouldn't matter how many trees you cut down, if your house is in the way of a fire like that one and you hadn't built for it, only luck would save you.

Sean Freeman · 17th September 2009, 08:07 PM

A good post ejrea, it certainly matches conversations I have had with Bush Fire consultants here in Queensland.

Eric Frei · 12th February 2010, 04:58 PM

Source: Zealously planting natives don't help fight bushfire, commission told | The Australian

Quote:

With the commission focused this week on planning issues, Matt Parsons, the manager of development and environmental services for Murrindindi shire, which includes the devastated townships of Marysville and Kinglake, showed the commission two aerial photographs of Marysville, before and after Black Saturday.

Pointing to a thin line of cleared land in dense bush on the outskirts of the town, Mr Parsons said: "That's a strategic firebreak".

There was laughter, so obviously inadequate was it to the task of protecting the town.

Mr Parsons said that since Black Saturday, "a lot of people have taken their own initiative", removing trees to ensure that their homes were separated from bushland by "appropriate defendable space".

And:- Dandenongs communities live in fear of another firestorm | Herald Sun

Quote:

Mr Francis gave a selection of photographs to the royal commission showing that 100 years ago the Dandenongs were mostly cleared of native vegetation.

But in the past 50 years government and local council policies had allowed the eucalypt forest to dominate the landscape.

"What is basically a fire- dependent ecology has hugely raised the bushfire risks. Put them through the ceiling," he said.

The commission also heard that the Nillumbik Shire is a battleground between groups who believe in tree clearing and those who want to preserve the area's natural beauty.

Brian Murray, of the Nillumbik Ratepayers Association, said they believed Eltham, Diamond Creek and Apollo Parkways were at extreme risk from bushfires.

He said all title-holders should be allowed to develop their blocks and every resident should be forced to clear trees and native vegetation.

Eric Frei · 12th May 2010, 07:38 PM

This one is interesting ...

Eltham test case on tree felling rules - Council - News | Diamond Valley Leader

Quote:

2 May 10 @ 10:28am by Elizabeth Allen

AN Eltham landowner says he is being used as a guinea pig to test the limits of tree removal rules put in place after Black Saturday’s bushfires.

Daniel Potter removed a tree from his Main St property without a permit in December 2009.

Under the State Government’s 10/30 rule, introduced last September, residents can clear shrubs and ground covers within 30 metres of their home and trees up to 10 metres from buildings.

Mr Potter said he removed the gum tree on his property because he believed it was dangerous and presented a bushfire risk.

But Nillumbik Council says Main St, Eltham, is not considered bushfire-prone and is not included in the council’s Wildfire Management Overlay.

Council spokeswoman Joanne Hammond said Mr Potter’s case was last month presented to the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal in a bid to “clarify” the 10/30 laws.

“Council is seeking advice about whether tests should be conducted to demonstrate that the removal of vegetation is for bushfire prevention,” Ms Hammond said.

“There is no case law to assist councils when it comes to making a decision about enforcement action.”

Mr Potter said he believed he could remove the tree under the new laws - spelt out under the temporary clause 52.43 of Nillumbik’s planning scheme, due to expire on August 31. “I don’t think council likes the 10/30 exemption at all,” Mr Potter said.

“They’re using me as a test case.

“Nillumbik Council does not consider Eltham in danger of bushfire but I believe Eltham has a real bushfire risk.”

Ms Hammond said the council had not taken Mr Potter to VCAT but merely presented his case as a means of discussing “legitimacy tests”.

“Council is not opposed to clause 52.43,” she said. “In order to provide the best advice to all members of the community, further clarification is being sought as a proactive step.”

The tribunal has yet to rule.

Sunraysia Tree Solutions · 13th May 2010, 11:57 AM

Tough one, having worked on the tree crew for Nillumbik council and also for a private company in the area, I do not think main rd Eltham is a great bushfire risk although it has quite large red and yellow box on sections of it. The rest of it is basically normal suburbia. The council should have clearly spelt out its bushfire zones, to avoid confusion. Looks like it has been caught napping again.

Eric Frei · 23rd May 2010, 06:41 PM

Leak presents scathing review of bushfire policy - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Quote:

The Victorian Government will come under attack this week by lawyers for the royal commission into the Black Saturday bushfires.

The Age newspaper has reported that lawyers assisting the commission will this week accuse the Government of "substantial policy failure" that placed "at least some of those who died at great risk".

The paper reports that submissions to be put to the commission allege the Government and its fire agencies still fail to accept that the "stay or go" policy has been discredited.

The chairman of the commission says the leaking of the submission is "entirely inappropriate".

Victorian Government frontbencher, Bronwyn Pike, says the Government will wait until the commission releases its final report before committing to policy changes.

"I'm much more interested in allowing the Royal Commission the time and the space to evaluate all of the submissions and do something that's going to be positive for the future of Victoria," she said.

"We know that families and communities were devastated in the bushfires, and what's most important is that we learn from these experiences."

She said she was not surprised details of the submission were leaked to the media.

"People in Victoria have a huge interest in what's happening at the Royal Commission," she said.

"I'm not surprised that from time to time that information enters the public arena, but in the end the Royal Commission has been tasked with the responsibility of assessing all of the information that comes to it."

The Victorian Opposition accused the Brumby Government of committing a litany of failures.

National Party leader and opposition spokesman for bushfire response, Peter Ryan, says the Government must be held accountable.

"It is a commentary, I think, for which this Government must be held accountable, because on the face of this documentation, at least some Victorians died that day who simply should not have, had policy been implemented properly," he said.

He says it is clear the current system does not work.

"The Government response to the interim report was inadequate," he said.

"[Premier John] Brumby tried to paper over the cracks and what this report shows, quite brutally I must say, is that there does need to be a new system, which is in plain English."

Opposition spokesman David Davis says the concerns raised by the Commission's lawyers expose serious flaws.

"It's very clear that there's a failure of leadership, a litany of failures under this Brumby Government, a failure to speak plainly, a failure to respond to the interim report adequately and a failure of leadership on the day," he said.

12th February 2009, 09:38 PM	#2
Garry Brockley Bayside Tree Care Brisbane Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Brisbane Aus Posts: 1,641	Re: Council ignored warning over trees before Victoria bushfires unbelievable why do the authorities believe they know better than the experts on the subject, i find this happens world wide and noone ever learns the lesson until now maybe, i hope they learn alot from this and implement the needed changes country wide. __________________ My business:- Brisbane Bayside Tree Care

13th February 2009, 05:53 AM	#3
Bruce Hopf Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: North of Sebringville, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,167	Re: Council ignored warning over trees before Victoria bushfires If I were Members of any of those People Killed, I'd go after the Members of that Counsel, for everything that they were Worth, and then some. As Far as I'm concerned, they should be Held Accountable for the Blaze as well as the culprit, that Set the Fire as well. Bruce. __________________ McCulloch chain saws 1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's, 2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener, 1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver 2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10 Stihl chain saws 2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084, Strunk chain saws 1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

14th February 2009, 09:15 PM	#4
Eric Frei Admin - Owner Palm & Tree Services in Brisbane Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,994	Re: Council ignored warning over trees before Victoria bushfires Property owners say it's time for a tree chop - The Geelong Advertiser February 14th, 2009 PROPERTY owners who successfully fended off the blazes that ravaged central Victoria say our region should change its approach to tree clearing or perish. Strath Creek Pub owner, 65-year-old Harry Harvey, sheltered a group of townsfolk in his establishment as fire ravaged the region. Mr Harvey says they survived by the skin of their teeth with the blaze getting within a couple of hundred metres of the pub, protected only by being in an area cleared of trees and by the top work of the local CFA. "If it had have gone any further the pub would have gone up," he says. But he is critical of restrictions regarding clearing that he says have created a danger zone in many parts of Victoria. "The fire swept through all the undergrowth. But you are not allowed to touch it because there might be a lizard living in it. I can't understand why people think more of trees than human life," Mr Harvey said. "I'm deadset against greenies." Mr Harvey said the locals who survived are those who cleared. "The bloke up the road got fined. But he survived," he said referring to neighbour Liam Sheahan. With relatives in Geelong, he knows the region well and says Geelong needs to pay heed to what he has seen. "You see plenty of places that could go up," he said. Meanwhile, Karen King of Gippsland tells a similar story. Mrs King saw a giant flame walking its way across the hills of Hazelwood towards her property last Saturday. King now has no doubt what stopped it in its tracks. "Having the trees at a distance from the house kept the flames away," she says in a matter of fact way. "Deadset that is what saved us." King and her husband Cameron teamed with their neighbours to save their brick home. Flames burnt to within 50cm of their back door but they fought them off. She said the fact there were no overhanging trees made the battle one of fending off embers and not a direct fire. King says many of her neighbours have learned the lesson and are doing what they said they should have done years ago. "We know of people down here who are now getting bulldozers out to clear all the trees directly near their property. They know the danger of having the trees around them," she said. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Palm and Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

15th February 2009, 12:15 AM	#5
Bruce Hopf Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: North of Sebringville, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,167	Re: Council ignored warning over trees before Victoria bushfires I find this very Sad. There are way to Many Green Piercers in the World, that don't think of what could happen if a Situation Occurs like this. They are more Concerned with Animal Life, than Human Life. The Pub Owner Basically said if the Undergrowth was clear, the Fire would have been such a Blaze, like it is now. Even the Woman stated, that they watched the Fire Stop in it's Tracks, because it didn't have any more Fuel to keep it going. The very Sad thing about this, is it will happen again, and again, because Some People will never Learn from this. Governments are always afraid, what the Cost would be, to have something like this kept under Control. The Cost would have been a lot Cheaper in the Long Run, to keep things Clear of Under Brush, than leave it to Fuel and Inferno. Now for the Jerk who lit the Fire. They should place a few Tires over his Head, with his Body Inserted in the Tires, Douse the Tires with Gas, and throw a Match. Let him know what it feels like to be Burned to Death, like he did to How Many People? Just what the Deserves. Shooting the as far as I'm Concerned, is not Good Enough. That is Too Easy of a way out for a Person like this, and so is Prison. Bruce. __________________ McCulloch chain saws 1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's, 2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener, 1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver 2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10 Stihl chain saws 2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084, Strunk chain saws 1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

15th February 2009, 12:24 AM	#6
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: orlando,fl Posts: 4,948	Re: Council ignored warning over trees before Victoria bushfires I'd like to get my hands on the arsonist for about an hour or two,in my neck of the woods,none can hear you scream,and i they do,they ignore it. __________________ Have your say join us today. old schooler

17th February 2009, 10:09 AM	#8
Jeff Darby Moderator - Previously known as JayD Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: TreeWorld, Sydney Australia Posts: 2,059	Re: Council ignored warning over trees before Victoria bushfires What ever happened to the lessons of Ash Wednesday?? Remember that tragic fire? __________________ Member: Australian Tree Association Join the Australian Tree Association...Have your voice heard ! Arboriculture, A life long study for some, a passing phase for others © Jeffrey J Darby 2011

17th February 2009, 11:22 PM	#11
Bruce Hopf Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: North of Sebringville, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,167	Re: Council ignored warning over trees before Victoria bushfires I hate to say it, but when it comes to Government, Things will never Change. They do not know how to use Common Sense Period. I also hate to say this, but I think that those People that lost their Lives, Died in Vain. I hope that I'm Wrong, and that Policies do Change. I hope that the Rowan Family gets back their Money, that they Spent for Lawyers, and Fines. But when it comes to Government, they do not like to be Wrong. Bruce. __________________ McCulloch chain saws 1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's, 2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener, 1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver 2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10 Stihl chain saws 2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084, Strunk chain saws 1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

23rd March 2009, 12:56 PM	#13
Bruce Hopf Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: North of Sebringville, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,167	Re: Council ignored warning over trees before Victoria bushfires As far as I'm concerned, if everything, and was Properly cleared handled Properly in the First Place this Fire could have been just Minor, instead of what had Happened. I feel that everyone involved in Not Taking Heed to any of the Warnings here by the Residence should be held Accountable , and Put into. Bruce. __________________ McCulloch chain saws 1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's, 2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener, 1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver 2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10 Stihl chain saws 2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084, Strunk chain saws 1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

23rd March 2009, 08:05 PM	#14
Eric Frei Admin - Owner Palm & Tree Services in Brisbane Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,994	Re: Council ignored warning over trees before Victoria bushfires I assure you, greenies, tree huggers and ecologist are the main culprits of mass stupidity. Most are younger than 30 with little real world experience sitting on their office chairs shining up their backsides.... aka shiny asses. Experts in dictating their tunnel visioned education at main stream society, taking security in public paying positions where little financial impact of poor decisions will reflect on them personally, I know, I deal with them daily. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Palm and Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

25th March 2009, 05:25 AM	#15
Bruce Hopf Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: North of Sebringville, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,167	Re: Council ignored warning over trees before Victoria bushfires Ekka. I don't know how you feel, but I think that a lot of People in this World, should have their Heads Bashed Together. Just maybe that would Knock some Sence it a Few Heads,, or would that be expecting too much? Bruce. __________________ McCulloch chain saws 1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's, 2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener, 1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver 2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10 Stihl chain saws 2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084, Strunk chain saws 1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

18th April 2009, 09:35 PM	#17
Sunraysia Tree Solutions Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Mildura Posts: 117	Re: Council ignored warning over trees before Victoria bushfires Has anyone thought about the Dandenongs near Melbourne ? Acemaster stomping ground, I have read reports dated as far back as the 1960's stating no more houses should be built up there because of the fire risk , there was a fire near upway this year and one on the basin side in 1998 and one in ferny crk in 1995 i think, yet every time i visit my mate in Selby there's more houses on even steeper blocks and more traffic on narrow roads. I know there will be a bushfire up there again and I'm afraid it will make black saturday look like a nice day out.

11th July 2009, 04:43 PM	#18
timscott I'm new here so be nice Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Brisbane Posts: 3	Re: Council ignored warning over trees before Victoria bushfires Once again someone in office with pencil trying to keep his job influencing others lives. If they rebuild with trees surrounding homes still, no insurance none! people don't learn NSW, VIC fires repeat and repeat every 20 years or so. This makes me very angry that we will (the rest of australia) will pay for this. Yes we need trees but not all over every house as was the case in VIC bush fires.

9th August 2009, 10:11 AM	#19
booster Former Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: india Posts: 1	Re: Council ignored warning over trees before Victoria bushfires unbelievable why do the authorities believe they know better than the experts on the subject, i find this happens world wide and noone ever learns the lesson until now maybe, i hope they learn alot from this and implement the needed changes country wide. Last edited by Jeff Darby; 9th August 2009 at 10:24 AM. Reason: removed spam link

9th August 2009, 10:35 AM	#20
Bruce Hopf Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: North of Sebringville, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,167	Re: Council ignored warning over trees before Victoria bushfires I could be wrong here, but wouldn't it help if every year or so, have a controlled burn, to prevent a wild fire? I remember in the late 70's, they were doing a lot of experiments along the west coasts of Canada, and the US, to try and prevent the big fires. Mabey Windthrown (if he posted to this thread), can clarify this for me, or someone else could. Thanks. Bruce. __________________ McCulloch chain saws 1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's, 2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener, 1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver 2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10 Stihl chain saws 2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084, Strunk chain saws 1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

9th August 2009, 07:58 PM	#21
Apocalypsse Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Victoria, Australia Posts: 1,152	Re: Council ignored warning over trees before Victoria bushfires Local councils are responsible for authorising controlled burns. but they keep getting hammered by the greenie groups that controlled burns are super bad and that they will never seen the end to protests and crap like that if they decide to do the burns. Now they have gotten off their asses a bit and started doing more burns.

9th August 2009, 11:22 PM	#22
Bruce Hopf Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: North of Sebringville, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,167	Re: Council ignored warning over trees before Victoria bushfires If I was on Council, and I was approached by these so called Greene groups , I'd ask what they would rather have, Controlled Burns, or more devastation like this fire, and I'd say to them, that the Next Fire could destroy a Family Member's home, or even worse, they could be burned to death, like so many of those people that did burn to death in this fire. Everyone knows, or should know, that the vegetation will grow back after a fire has gone through, but with a controlled fire, wouldn't there be less damage than a wild fire like this? Thanks. Bruce. __________________ McCulloch chain saws 1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's, 2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener, 1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver 2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10 Stihl chain saws 2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084, Strunk chain saws 1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

17th September 2009, 06:04 PM	#23
ejrea Sappling Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Bittern, Mornington Peninsula Posts: 11	Re: Council ignored warning over trees before Victoria bushfires I realise that this thread is quite old now, but I have only just signed up, and really couldn't let it go after I had read some of the comments. I work in the Dandenongs and was heavily involved in the fire cleanup. As most of you don't seem to come from the area I will let you know a few facts. There were houses that burnt down without a tree in sight. In fact one guy had a single tree on 2 acres and still lost his house, and then there is the place that has been in the papers a few times with forest up 2 meters of house that went through the fire twice, when it came through the first time and then again when the wind changed. The house is still standing and the thing that nearly burnt it down was the cars exploding in the carport. The difference is that the house that survived was built over and above the standard for fire risk areas. These forests are some of the most beautiful in the country, but they are also THE most flammable. Regnans only germinate after a MASSIVE fire event, and they have been due for one for some decades now. If people choose to live in this sort of landscape then they have to be well and truly aware of what they are signing up to. I don't think that it is permissable to destroy this landscape for the rest of us because some people have decided to live there. I have family who live up there, and I have lived up there in the past as well, and really there is no way that I would choose to stay and defend on a day like that day. It wouldn't matter how many trees you cut down, if your house is in the way of a fire like that one and you hadn't built for it, only luck would save you.

17th September 2009, 08:07 PM	#24
Sean Freeman Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,981	Re: Council ignored warning over trees before Victoria bushfires A good post ejrea, it certainly matches conversations I have had with Bush Fire consultants here in Queensland.

13th May 2010, 11:57 AM	#27
Sunraysia Tree Solutions Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Mildura Posts: 117	Re: Council ignored warning over trees before Victoria bushfires Tough one, having worked on the tree crew for Nillumbik council and also for a private company in the area, I do not think main rd Eltham is a great bushfire risk although it has quite large red and yellow box on sections of it. The rest of it is basically normal suburbia. The council should have clearly spelt out its bushfire zones, to avoid confusion. Looks like it has been caught napping again.

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