2 Workers injured, company cops $17,500 fine

Eric Frei

From our local paper. Read very carefully.

They were provided harnesses and an EWP to do the work, however they decided to hang off the 5m awings coz it was easier, they both fell.

When is the responsibility going to pushed onto the worker? The company copped $15,000 fine and $2500 court and legal costs. Section 24 of the Workplace Health and Safety Act 1995 says ...

And for those interested into why they talk penalty units, I dont know, but a penalty unit is $75

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newguy18

Its a shame thats what the world is coming to,none wants to take responsability and the legal system basically says you don't have to.

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old schooler

Sean Freeman

Now its not my intention to defend stupidity at work no matter who does it, but a few salient points to ponder over before jumping to conclusions (borne from being a Workplace Health and Safety Officer for 5yrs)....

1) News media are not going to give you either all the facts or all the history to any story, they'll give you what sells the story
2) The company was being charged under its failure to fulfill its obligation, a breach of the WH&S Act....charges against individual workers would not normally made in that hearing despite the breach being made against the same section of the Act (if charges were to be made at all)
3) Individuals are usually investigated for personal breaches in the event of a claim being made through WorkCover, or against their employer....(Death at work is very very different...just watch this space over the death at Brisbane airport!!!!!!)
4) The two fools would be guilty of breaching Section 28, and they would be unlikely to even a fraction of the normal entitlement.
5) In the event of a proven breach the Owner(if also the CEO) can get a double wammie, since he/she can be charged as both an individual and as the buisness....so in this sense (potential penalties) he/she carries greater responsibility.

BTW anyone who attended the last Qld Arb Camp had the opportunity to attend a mock court where exactly these issues and many others were extensively covered.

Drouin Tree Service

Id like to know if the E.W.P could reach all of the job,How many trees get climbed that a E.W.P could reach???

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Eric Frei

That's the blanket charge they use on every case, no matter whose fault ... beat the horse with the same stick.

Seems the workers failed. No matter how much paperwork, procedures or BS when an accident occurs the employer cops that breach, period.

Fools have the right to say no if the EWP didn't reach, and any fool with a blue card knows you dont go 5m unrestrained, and so on goes the circle. Fool worker=boss fine when the shit hits the fan.

Yes, I'd like to see where the workers entitlements diminish for their stupidity, and where the employer gets compensated for the costs, lost productivity and fines etc.

Post them, lets see, lets see if it's a fair system or the typical "bosses fault" system. Coz right now it's so one sided the planet is listing.

I may know nothing about tunnel boring, the equipment or what's involved. I hire an "expert" to do it, he then has an accident and I get fined, great system. Means in this day and age even those trained in their fields pass the buck.

So, bring the facts, till then, my mind is solid on what I see and hear ALL THE TIME.

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Sean Freeman

Eric if you think I've the time or the inclination to trawl through 8-9yrs of prosecution data for you mate...you are wrong! also I'm not really interested in changing your mind.

I'm not arguing about the responsibilities of the two guys in this case or any other, and they will loose entitlements as a result thats how the legislation works.

WH&S legislation is quite simple and straight forward if an investigation reveals that the company/employer did not have effective management systems in place to maintain WH&S then they will be fined...I don't have a problem with that.

newguy18

just out of curiousity,how many feet are in a meter?

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old schooler

Sean Freeman

3.275

Eric Frei

1 meter = 3.2808399 feet

Fell about 16' and 5"

Sean, everyone gets fined coz no matter how good the system, it's always the bosses fault. Even to the degree of not having some-one stand there all day watching to make sure.

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Sean Freeman

No its not always the bosses fault, and no you don't have to stand there watching them, you have to have implemented effective management systems that satisfy the written regulations, if none exist (as is the case for tree work) for your industry or activity then you must adopt the Australian Advisary Standard or Code of Practice if none exists in your state (as is the case in Qld) then match (or exceed) the equivalent set of standards in operation in other states.

The Australian Standards were written to be used not just looked at and put on a shelf...everything needed to satisfy the Act is within the relevant AS....Risk Management AS4360 is one of the larger more comprehensive ones.

cb01

I have a question. If the employer had ewp trainning for his employees and it was documented that they had recieved the trainning, and they knew better than to tie off to that structure, but did it any way on their own, not under time pressure from their employer, would that exempt the employer in a case like this? (sorry for the long run on)

Will Kemp

Like it or not, it is the bosses fault. If the boss employs idiots, it's their fault. If the boss employs people who aren't properly trained, it's their fault. If the boss sends people out to do a job who aren't capable of doing it safely, then it's their fault. It's only luck there was nobody underneath to get killed.

If the boss doesn't want idiots falling off awnings, then they shouldn't employ idiots who are going to fall off awnings. Or, if they must employ them then they have to somehow make sure the idiots don't fall off awnings.

Pay for tree workers is pretty piss-poor really, given the skills needed and the risk level. But if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. And if you give a monkey a hand grenade, you shouldn't be surprised when it blows you up!

If there's a shortage of properly trained people who aren't idiots then that's another matter altogether. But it doesn't excuse the boss from creating a dangerous situation. It's a hard bloody life - and i'd hate to be the boss of an arb company - but it's their choice, innit!

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B3h3m1th

exactly stupid as$ workers not using the proper safety procedures BOOM bet they got kicked 2 the curb n next time on the job they'll think twice about using their faster practice n not the right practice, just my opinion

TrevMcRev

When it comes to workcover, the question "Do you accept liabilty?" basically means "Do you believe it actually happened?"

Unless it is a false make believe claim then you are liable.

Yes a worker could look you in the eye and laugh as he deliberately cuts one hand off with a Chainsaw despite all your rules and training and you are still liable.

Will Kemp

A boss who employs a worker who deliberately cuts their hand off is probably not very good at their job.

Over the last 34 years, i've worked in a wide range of occupations, from seaman to computer programmer and from builder's labourer to housing manager. In that time, i've had more bosses than i care to remember - and i haven't come across many bosses who were much good at their job.

Managing staff is not a simple matter, but it's the most important part of a boss's job. I know how hard it is, because i've had to manage staff in at least three different industries - and i certainly wouldn't say i'm the best boss in the world. But being a boss is a job like any other job - if you're not very good at it, you really shouldn't be doing it.

If you're not very good at it and you do do it, then things will go wrong. And in the tree industry, when things go wrong it can get very nasty!

I've done a small amount of tree work but, even though i've got a Cert 3, i haven't had much experience and i would never claim to really know what i'm doing. If i drop a tree on someone's house because i'm not a very good arborist, then it's my fault - not the tree's.

If i hire someone who's not the right person for the job, because i'm not a very good boss, then that's my fault too - not the fault of the person i hired.

Having an arb qualification doesn't make someone a good boss - they need to study management too.

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Eric Frei

Year ago, around 99/2000 there was a lot of people I hired who refused to wear ...

Helmet, ear muffs and glasses.

These guys were around 30, in the industry around 7 years, but already old school.

Every day was a battle just getting them to wear their PPE. You turn your back, go do a quote and they'd take PPE off.

It's easy to say, "get rid of them", but then you'd have no workers either. I bet there's many in that boat now, put up with them coz there's not much better around.

Then around 2003 there was another deluge of tree workers on the job market as workplace drug testing came in for many of the larger places. I hired a few out of that lot and they were all gone within days.

Some boasted how they'd "do a few cones" before climbing a tree.

A customer said one large company turned up to do a job, at 7.30am the climber downed 2 cans Jim Beam and coke before going up the tree.

That's the reality of the job, and I know I aint the only one who has seen this. So the wheels turn, sad part is that these people actually behave this way and you have to deal with it.

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Will Kemp

Yeah, that's the other side of the story, of course. I've got no doubt it's incredibly hard to find good workers in the arb industry.

The root cause of the problem, of course, is that there are so many cowboy "tree loppers" around undercutting the professional arborists and it's impossible to pay good tree workers a decent wage.

The only solution to that, as i'd imagine has been discussed here before, is a strictly enforced licensing regime - to push out the cowboys and allow the professionals to charge realistic prices for tree work.

It was done with all the other trades decades ago, and it really is long overdue in the tree industry.

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Sunraysia Tree Solutions

[QUOTE=Will Kemp;29169]A boss who employs a worker who deliberately cuts their hand off is probably not very good at their job.


Getting good workers in our industry is very hard I know of small company's where the owner is getting on and can't climb 5 days a week anymore having to close down because they can't find reliable knowledgeable workers.

The first company I worked for it was normal for the guys to have a couple of cones before work (or during) or to be coming of something during work. As my first tree job I thought this is what is normal, and I'll be the first to admit I joined in, yes I know I was an idiot, and its not going to make it any better to say I just dragged branches, thankfully now I know better. The fact is I have seen good workers go to s__t after a relationship breakup so my point is you can start off employing a great employee who ends up being a liability.

Sorry for being so pessimistic but this industry is never going to have a sufficient supply of quality workers, while we are seen by the public as glorified rubbish removalists (that tree is ugly how much ?).

However I believe there are 3 things that can be done to improve the situation

1. Insurers need to recognize qualifications( and or experience) and
charge premiums accordingly

2. Legislation for qualifications and compliance from the government
(unlikely)

3. Employers need to enter into profit sharing arrangements with their
employees, I believe this would reduce the amount of employees turning
into competition too!

Eric Frei

Interesting that 2 out of 3 our out of the employers control.

With #3 I gave that a lot of thought, most of the workers think the boss is always making a fortune and want "profit share".

I proposed that if they want to share in profits then they can also share in losses, like the real world.

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Will Kemp

Ha ha, i don't think there's any "fortunes" to be made in the tree industry!

But number 2 isn't out of the bosses' control at all. That sort of legislation only comes about by pressure on the government.

I know there were moves afoot in NSW the year before last to work towards some sort of compulsory qualification for tree workers - i've been out of touch with what's happening there since then though.

Any boss who wants to push things in that direction should make sure they're qualified themselves and should join ISA or some similar arb trade organisation, and work with that organisation to lobby the government.

If there's enough of a campaign by enough of the people the government recognises as being qualified to push for it, it will happen eventually.

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Eric Frei

To sell pies or flowers on the side of the road I need a licence or permit. Every council differs as to requirements.

An itinerant trader selling electrical goods out of the boot of their car in a major shopping centre car park was fined $30K as second offence and no licence.

Yet we have armies of door knocking hacks taking our work.

Difference is when Harvey Normans or Westfields jumps on local councillor they give a shit.

#2 Is out of employers control. The employer cannot make the law nor enforce it, it's not up to them. It's like saying it's up to you whether or not we have troops in Iraq, clearly it is not however if enough people protest and lobby then a withdrawal will occur however ultimately it is not within your authority.

The most effective catalyst for change is consumer complaints, so many and it triggers legislation. However the irony is customers dont complain to the right authorities about the shit work and hacks... sure they carry on and squeal like stuck pigs but they dont lodge the official complaint.

Recent law changes due to customer complaints include percentile rate charge for short term loans like CashConverters and Payday advance etc, Introduction Agency fees.

When the Fair Trading Dept gets enough complaints on the same thing they look into it. Last year for the whole year there were from memory 18 complaints about the tree/gardener industry, that's all. As far as the govt's concerned all is OK.

There were hundreds about hairdressers, mainly from girls between the ages of 18 and 25 .... but what would expect from them, one hair out of place and scream the house down.

I have asked customers often, why did you pay them when you were unhappy, "coz there was 3 of them and they were huge fellas and most aggressive" ... so intimidation works well. Why didn't you call the cops and dob them in? ... "coz I dont want trouble".

There you go, other people like them and refer them all over coz they think they're getting a bargain and getting their trees hacked or property busted is what they want.... "so they smashed your fence and didn't fix it, why did you pay them? .... Because they were $300 cheaper than anyone else so I'm still in front even if I have to fix it.

At the end of the day when the consumer drives change then it will happen more so, but I dont see an education campaign from the orgs, I dont see help at the coal face, I dont see them writing to councils in official capacities demonstrating the need for change, I dont see them exposing the hacks,I dont see my membership money doing much for me.... might as well do it myself which I have done and got results plus prosecutions ... but they apparently dont like that and one even said it's not nice and wrong and could bring in legal action.

Even on this forum when it comes to showing the who did what there's protectionism being lobbied. Dont disclose the hack, dont this, dont that.

Have a good look at why things are the way they are, there's reasons for it, from the tree operators to the consumers to the orgs.

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