2 Workers injured, company cops $17,500 fine

Ekka · 11th April 2008, 10:41 PM

From our local paper. Read very carefully.

They were provided harnesses and an EWP to do the work, however they decided to hang off the 5m awings coz it was easier, they both fell.

When is the responsibility going to pushed onto the worker? The company copped $15,000 fine and $2500 court and legal costs. Section 24 of the Workplace Health and Safety Act 1995 says ...

Quote:

24 Discharge of obligations

(1) A person on whom a workplace health and safety obligation is imposed must discharge the obligation.

Maximum penalty—

(a) if the breach causes multiple deaths—2000 penalty units or 3 years imprisonment; or

(b) if the breach causes death or grievous bodily
harm—1000 penalty units or 2 years imprisonment; or

(c) if the breach causes bodily harm—750 penalty units or 1 year’s imprisonment; or s 25 26 s 26 Workplace Health and Safety Act 1995

(d) if the breach involves exposure to a substance likely to
cause death or grievous bodily harm—750 penalty units
or 1 year’s imprisonment; or

(e) otherwise—500 penalty units or 6 months
imprisonment.

(2) Subsection (1) applies despite Criminal Code, sections 23 and 24.2

(3) If more than 1 person has a workplace health and safety obligation for a matter, each person—

(a) retains responsibility for the person’s workplace health
and safety obligation for the matter; and

(b) must discharge the person’s workplace health and safety obligation to the extent the matter is within the person’s control; and

(c) must consult, and cooperate, with all other persons who
have a workplace health and safety obligation for the
matter.

And for those interested into why they talk penalty units, I dont know, but a penalty unit is $75

newguy18 · 12th April 2008, 08:51 PM

Its a shame thats what the world is coming to,none wants to take responsability and the legal system basically says you don't have to.

Sean Freeman · 12th April 2008, 09:09 PM

Now its not my intention to defend stupidity at work no matter who does it, but a few salient points to ponder over before jumping to conclusions (borne from being a Workplace Health and Safety Officer for 5yrs)....

1) News media are not going to give you either all the facts or all the history to any story, they'll give you what sells the story
2) The company was being charged under its failure to fulfill its obligation, a breach of the WH&S Act....charges against individual workers would not normally made in that hearing despite the breach being made against the same section of the Act (if charges were to be made at all)
3) Individuals are usually investigated for personal breaches in the event of a claim being made through WorkCover, or against their employer....(Death at work is very very different...just watch this space over the death at Brisbane airport!!!!!!)
4) The two fools would be guilty of breaching Section 28, and they would be unlikely to even a fraction of the normal entitlement.
5) In the event of a proven breach the Owner(if also the CEO) can get a double wammie, since he/she can be charged as both an individual and as the buisness....so in this sense (potential penalties) he/she carries greater responsibility.

BTW anyone who attended the last Qld Arb Camp had the opportunity to attend a mock court where exactly these issues and many others were extensively covered.

a_lopa · 12th April 2008, 09:24 PM

Id like to know if the E.W.P could reach all of the job,How many trees get climbed that a E.W.P could reach???

Ekka · 12th April 2008, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Freeman

2) The company was being charged under its failure to fulfill its obligation, a breach of the WH&S Act

That's the blanket charge they use on every case, no matter whose fault ... beat the horse with the same stick.

Seems the workers failed. No matter how much paperwork, procedures or BS when an accident occurs the employer cops that breach, period.

Fools have the right to say no if the EWP didn't reach, and any fool with a blue card knows you dont go 5m unrestrained, and so on goes the circle. Fool worker=boss fine when the shit hits the fan.

Yes, I'd like to see where the workers entitlements diminish for their stupidity, and where the employer gets compensated for the costs, lost productivity and fines etc.

Post them, lets see, lets see if it's a fair system or the typical "bosses fault" system. Coz right now it's so one sided the planet is listing.

I may know nothing about tunnel boring, the equipment or what's involved. I hire an "expert" to do it, he then has an accident and I get fined, great system. Means in this day and age even those trained in their fields pass the buck.

So, bring the facts, till then, my mind is solid on what I see and hear ALL THE TIME.

Sean Freeman · 12th April 2008, 10:15 PM

Eric if you think I've the time or the inclination to trawl through 8-9yrs of prosecution data for you mate...you are wrong!

also I'm not really interested in changing your mind.

I'm not arguing about the responsibilities of the two guys in this case or any other, and they will loose entitlements as a result thats how the legislation works.

WH&S legislation is quite simple and straight forward if an investigation reveals that the company/employer did not have effective management systems in place to maintain WH&S then they will be fined...I don't have a problem with that.

newguy18 · 12th April 2008, 10:52 PM

just out of curiousity,how many feet are in a meter?

Sean Freeman · 12th April 2008, 10:58 PM

3.275

Ekka · 12th April 2008, 10:59 PM

1 meter = 3.2808399 feet

Fell about 16' and 5"

Sean, everyone gets fined coz no matter how good the system, it's always the bosses fault. Even to the degree of not having some-one stand there all day watching to make sure.

Sean Freeman · 12th April 2008, 11:06 PM

No its not always the bosses fault, and no you don't have to stand there watching them, you have to have implemented effective management systems that satisfy the written regulations, if none exist (as is the case for tree work) for your industry or activity then you must adopt the Australian Advisary Standard or Code of Practice if none exists in your state (as is the case in Qld) then match (or exceed) the equivalent set of standards in operation in other states.

The Australian Standards were written to be used not just looked at and put on a shelf...everything needed to satisfy the Act is within the relevant AS....Risk Management AS4360 is one of the larger more comprehensive ones.

cb01 · 14th April 2008, 05:46 PM

I have a question. If the employer had ewp trainning for his employees and it was documented that they had recieved the trainning, and they knew better than to tie off to that structure, but did it any way on their own, not under time pressure from their employer, would that exempt the employer in a case like this? (sorry for the long run on)

Will Kemp · 20th April 2008, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Sean, everyone gets fined coz no matter how good the system, it's always the bosses fault. Even to the degree of not having some-one stand there all day watching to make sure.

Like it or not, it is the bosses fault. If the boss employs idiots, it's their fault. If the boss employs people who aren't properly trained, it's their fault. If the boss sends people out to do a job who aren't capable of doing it safely, then it's their fault. It's only luck there was nobody underneath to get killed.

If the boss doesn't want idiots falling off awnings, then they shouldn't employ idiots who are going to fall off awnings. Or, if they must employ them then they have to somehow make sure the idiots don't fall off awnings.

Pay for tree workers is pretty piss-poor really, given the skills needed and the risk level. But if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. And if you give a monkey a hand grenade, you shouldn't be surprised when it blows you up!

If there's a shortage of properly trained people who aren't idiots then that's another matter altogether. But it doesn't excuse the boss from creating a dangerous situation. It's a hard bloody life - and i'd hate to be the boss of an arb company - but it's their choice, innit!

B3h3m1th · 23rd April 2008, 08:39 PM

exactly stupid as$ workers not using the proper safety procedures BOOM

bet they got kicked 2 the curb n next time on the job they'll think twice about using their faster practice n not the right practice, just my opinion

TrevMcRev · 24th April 2008, 05:31 AM

When it comes to workcover, the question "Do you accept liabilty?" basically means "Do you believe it actually happened?"

Unless it is a false make believe claim then you are liable.

Yes a worker could look you in the eye and laugh as he deliberately cuts one hand off with a Chainsaw despite all your rules and training and you are still liable.

Will Kemp · 24th April 2008, 06:33 AM

A boss who employs a worker who deliberately cuts their hand off is probably not very good at their job.

Over the last 34 years, i've worked in a wide range of occupations, from seaman to computer programmer and from builder's labourer to housing manager. In that time, i've had more bosses than i care to remember - and i haven't come across many bosses who were much good at their job.

Managing staff is not a simple matter, but it's the most important part of a boss's job. I know how hard it is, because i've had to manage staff in at least three different industries - and i certainly wouldn't say i'm the best boss in the world. But being a boss is a job like any other job - if you're not very good at it, you really shouldn't be doing it.

If you're not very good at it and you do do it, then things will go wrong. And in the tree industry, when things go wrong it can get very nasty!

I've done a small amount of tree work but, even though i've got a Cert 3, i haven't had much experience and i would never claim to really know what i'm doing. If i drop a tree on someone's house because i'm not a very good arborist, then it's my fault - not the tree's.

If i hire someone who's not the right person for the job, because i'm not a very good boss, then that's my fault too - not the fault of the person i hired.

Having an arb qualification doesn't make someone a good boss - they need to study management too.

12th April 2008, 08:51 PM	#2 (permalink)
newguy18 Tree World Icon Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,200	Re: 2 Workers injured, company cops $17,500 fine Its a shame thats what the world is coming to,none wants to take responsability and the legal system basically says you don't have to. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

12th April 2008, 09:09 PM	#3 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,521	Re: 2 Workers injured, company cops $17,500 fine Now its not my intention to defend stupidity at work no matter who does it, but a few salient points to ponder over before jumping to conclusions (borne from being a Workplace Health and Safety Officer for 5yrs).... 1) News media are not going to give you either all the facts or all the history to any story, they'll give you what sells the story 2) The company was being charged under its failure to fulfill its obligation, a breach of the WH&S Act....charges against individual workers would not normally made in that hearing despite the breach being made against the same section of the Act (if charges were to be made at all) 3) Individuals are usually investigated for personal breaches in the event of a claim being made through WorkCover, or against their employer....(Death at work is very very different...just watch this space over the death at Brisbane airport!!!!!!) 4) The two fools would be guilty of breaching Section 28, and they would be unlikely to even a fraction of the normal entitlement. 5) In the event of a proven breach the Owner(if also the CEO) can get a double wammie, since he/she can be charged as both an individual and as the buisness....so in this sense (potential penalties) he/she carries greater responsibility. BTW anyone who attended the last Qld Arb Camp had the opportunity to attend a mock court where exactly these issues and many others were extensively covered. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

12th April 2008, 09:24 PM	#4 (permalink)
a_lopa Astronaut Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Drouin Posts: 837	Re: 2 Workers injured, company cops $17,500 fine Id like to know if the E.W.P could reach all of the job,How many trees get climbed that a E.W.P could reach??? __________________ Free Tree Industry Link Directory Drouin tree lopping, land clearing and stump removals

12th April 2008, 10:15 PM	#6 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,521	Re: 2 Workers injured, company cops $17,500 fine Eric if you think I've the time or the inclination to trawl through 8-9yrs of prosecution data for you mate...you are wrong! also I'm not really interested in changing your mind. I'm not arguing about the responsibilities of the two guys in this case or any other, and they will loose entitlements as a result thats how the legislation works. WH&S legislation is quite simple and straight forward if an investigation reveals that the company/employer did not have effective management systems in place to maintain WH&S then they will be fined...I don't have a problem with that. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

12th April 2008, 10:52 PM	#7 (permalink)
newguy18 Tree World Icon Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,200	Re: 2 Workers injured, company cops $17,500 fine just out of curiousity,how many feet are in a meter? __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

12th April 2008, 10:58 PM	#8 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,521	Re: 2 Workers injured, company cops $17,500 fine 3.275 __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

12th April 2008, 10:59 PM	#9 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,673	Re: 2 Workers injured, company cops $17,500 fine 1 meter = 3.2808399 feet Fell about 16' and 5" Sean, everyone gets fined coz no matter how good the system, it's always the bosses fault. Even to the degree of not having some-one stand there all day watching to make sure. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

12th April 2008, 11:06 PM	#10 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,521	Re: 2 Workers injured, company cops $17,500 fine No its not always the bosses fault, and no you don't have to stand there watching them, you have to have implemented effective management systems that satisfy the written regulations, if none exist (as is the case for tree work) for your industry or activity then you must adopt the Australian Advisary Standard or Code of Practice if none exists in your state (as is the case in Qld) then match (or exceed) the equivalent set of standards in operation in other states. The Australian Standards were written to be used not just looked at and put on a shelf...everything needed to satisfy the Act is within the relevant AS....Risk Management AS4360 is one of the larger more comprehensive ones. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

14th April 2008, 05:46 PM	#11 (permalink)
cb01 Break'n the ice Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: usa Posts: 9	Re: 2 Workers injured, company cops $17,500 fine I have a question. If the employer had ewp trainning for his employees and it was documented that they had recieved the trainning, and they knew better than to tie off to that structure, but did it any way on their own, not under time pressure from their employer, would that exempt the employer in a case like this? (sorry for the long run on)

23rd April 2008, 08:39 PM	#13 (permalink)
B3h3m1th Gettin' motoring Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: USA east coast Posts: 13	Re: 2 Workers injured, company cops $17,500 fine exactly stupid as$ workers not using the proper safety procedures BOOM bet they got kicked 2 the curb n next time on the job they'll think twice about using their faster practice n not the right practice, just my opinion

24th April 2008, 05:31 AM	#14 (permalink)
TrevMcRev Astronaut Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 672	Re: 2 Workers injured, company cops $17,500 fine When it comes to workcover, the question "Do you accept liabilty?" basically means "Do you believe it actually happened?" Unless it is a false make believe claim then you are liable. Yes a worker could look you in the eye and laugh as he deliberately cuts one hand off with a Chainsaw despite all your rules and training and you are still liable. __________________ Melbourne Arborist, Total Tree Care, Pruning, Tree and Stump Removal

24th April 2008, 06:33 AM	#15 (permalink)
Will Kemp Break'n the ice Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Darwin Posts: 5	Re: 2 Workers injured, company cops $17,500 fine A boss who employs a worker who deliberately cuts their hand off is probably not very good at their job. Over the last 34 years, i've worked in a wide range of occupations, from seaman to computer programmer and from builder's labourer to housing manager. In that time, i've had more bosses than i care to remember - and i haven't come across many bosses who were much good at their job. Managing staff is not a simple matter, but it's the most important part of a boss's job. I know how hard it is, because i've had to manage staff in at least three different industries - and i certainly wouldn't say i'm the best boss in the world. But being a boss is a job like any other job - if you're not very good at it, you really shouldn't be doing it. If you're not very good at it and you do do it, then things will go wrong. And in the tree industry, when things go wrong it can get very nasty! I've done a small amount of tree work but, even though i've got a Cert 3, i haven't had much experience and i would never claim to really know what i'm doing. If i drop a tree on someone's house because i'm not a very good arborist, then it's my fault - not the tree's. If i hire someone who's not the right person for the job, because i'm not a very good boss, then that's my fault too - not the fault of the person i hired. Having an arb qualification doesn't make someone a good boss - they need to study management too. __________________ http://SnapAndScribble.com/will http://WillKemp-Words.com http://WillKemp-Photos.com