12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tree

Ekka · 23rd May 2008, 09:10 PM

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Kent | Dutch treat 1,000-year-old tree

Quote:

A team of 12 arboriculturists from Holland has paid 500 euros (£400) each to travel to Kent to try to save a 1,000-year-old sweet chestnut tree.

The tree, which has a 54ft girth and is over 100ft tall, is suffering from a lack of oxygen to its root system and is having remedial treatment.

The tree, in a Penshurst wood, is said to be in a "critical" condition and could die within five years.

But it is hoped treatment will help it to live another 200 to 300 years.

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"We say it is not a tree, it is a system," said arboriculturist team leader Jeroen Heindyx.

"When a system is blocked because there is no air coming down then the whole thing dies - just like we would die when our oxygen system is blocked."

Mr Heindyx said the team wanted to learn and share knowledge about the ancient tree.

Dead branches are also being cut away from the canopy.

The tree is in a 44-acre wood which is open to the public as well as home to Penshurst off-road cycle club.

In the longer term, a platform will be built round the tree to stop visitors damaging its roots and allow more oxygen to reach them.

Sean Freeman · 23rd May 2008, 09:51 PM

Thats a good story Eric, and even if they paid only a fraction of that its still great to see such commitment to trying to conserve ancient trees and the ecosystems they are a pivital part of

I'll ask some southern friends to in the UK to keep an eye and ear tuned for developments...the deck is a great idea, perhaps if it were outside the dripline they wouldn't need to cut anything off the tree at all.

Ekka · 23rd May 2008, 09:54 PM

Yeah, it would be good to get some footage, 54' girth?

Is that like around those 4 stems? Hard to make out what's going on there.

Sean Freeman · 23rd May 2008, 09:57 PM

Its not a tree I have heard of before but will look it up, I imagine you're right they're measuring the four stems as if they were still connected forming one large trunk, but hard to be certain.

DBS · 1st June 2008, 01:38 AM

i also was a bit confused from the 54" girth.

that would yield a 17" diameter stem. from what i see they are much larger than that...

**edit*** i guess i am more confused than i should be i read it as 54" not 54'...LMAO.....

so all things considered... 17 FOOT diameter seems false as well....

Ekka · 1st June 2008, 09:04 AM

Maybe 54m?!

What's annoying about these stories is getting the outcomes ... be good to know who went and email them.

Hey Quercus, any chance you know any of these guys etc?

quercus · 1st June 2008, 08:13 PM

nah mate, don't know them... but next week it's the Dutch national treeclimbing championship and I'll ask around for ya ok... In fact, I'll start e-mailing some people right now.

Greetz

dguntertrees · 30th June 2008, 08:39 AM

Sean,

Sweet Chestnut is Castanea sativa, quite common in the UK, but not native.

quercus · 17th July 2008, 11:38 PM

It seems as though I know a few of these guys, after hearing around.
Is there something ya'll would like to know?

Funny thing is they climbed it, but didn't do anything to it.

Harrie · 13th September 2008, 05:41 AM

Someone posted the following movie on the dutch forum, the quality is unfortunately very poor, it gives some impression of the trees.

Greetz Harrie

Dutch Forum
Treehugs.nl - Home of the boomknuffelaar

You Tube
YouTube - BBC SouthEast Tree Rescue 22 May 2008

Sean Freeman · 13th September 2008, 06:02 AM

Thanks for the posting, great vid...they were lucky guys those Dutch Arbs, shame the BBC reporting wasn't better would have liked to hear more about what it was they thought was going on in the soil, personally beginning to believe that whilst compaction can be a problem for all plants trees included but it is more often part of a greater range of interrelated set of environmental factors...we often misunderstand just how widspread the root system is and where it is in the soil, and how it is interacting with other organisms and elements there..still what a cracker that chestnut beautiful.

willem · 13th September 2008, 08:12 AM

Hello Sean,

My boss was one of the twelve arborists who went overthere. He is the one they call the soilexpert in the interview.
He told me that the tree is in a really bad shape. He had seen the tree a couple of years back and then it was in much better condition.
He said a local arborist had brought in a couple of truck loads of fresh woodchips and covered the roots +\- 30 cm thick!! This smoothering of the roots started the decline of the condition of this tree.

Sean Freeman · 13th September 2008, 09:22 AM

Thanks willem, thats a better more informed view...I guess they thought they were doing the right thing but more is not always better! Personally would not have removed any deadwood....but again probably not getting the correct picture from the BBC there either.

willem · 13th September 2008, 09:28 AM

I talked to one of the climbers. He removed some dead wood in the crown but only so the bbc had some nice shots. The climber told me that if all the dead wood was removed there wouldn't be much of a crown left.

Sean Freeman · 13th September 2008, 09:53 AM

Thanks Willem....much better info

JayD · 13th September 2008, 10:27 AM

WoW, What a big lovely old tree,Obviously in decline.

Here's a theory for you to mull over,We all know we inherit our characteristics from our parents,Right, Well maybe dad tree was a strong healthy bearer of his DNA, and mum tree through her line had a DNA imperfection and her line did not live as long as generally expected of this species.

Because of this, This tree is naturally in it's spiral of decline and sadly all the kings horse's and all the kings men can not stop what has be pre determined in this grand old tree's DNA.

Sean Freeman · 13th September 2008, 10:49 AM

If the tree is indeed in the 1000yr range then it is well and truely into the last half of its life just like any organism a big part of the latter years is increased susceptability to many of the pressures (environmental etc..) that were not really significant at all in the earlier stages of life.

But we should never loose sight of the importance that trees play in the wider (more important) ecology of the local environment, their decline is part of that bigger cycle, its hard enough for us to comprehend the interrelationships immediately surrounding the tree, let alone the part each tree plays and the place it takes in the greater more complex range of connections in the wider environment.

Knotahippie · 13th September 2008, 11:13 AM

Some good info. on ancient trees here...

Ancient Tree Forum

Knotahippie · 13th September 2008, 11:38 AM

I always liked the idea of compaction remediation/pruning in small, seasonal stages.

Let the tree compartmentalize a little at a time.

Read some really interesting info on tree related organisms and potential benifits, said that mice/owls/castings help many Sp. of mychorriza get from one area to another.

Seems like deadwood stabilization could be somthing to consider...

Sean Freeman · 13th September 2008, 02:02 PM

Yes its an amazing range of ever developing relationships between flora and fauna of all scales!

Ekka · 13th September 2008, 02:12 PM

I'm intrigued about the air theory, after reading and a little research it could well be a myth.

Was there any testing of the soil to show what it was like? I dont think the human eye is capable of determining soil air levels etc.

To say it would die in 5 years without treatment would at best be a guess. And to say you'd get another 195 years out of it by treating it is yet another guess.

When all of these factors can be measured and quantified then we move ahead, till then we are just guessing. Could well be a lighter layer of mulch, generic soil treatment with mycorrhizal fungi is all it needed. You certainly wouldn't be able to get a borer or dig a hole in the ground here as easily as seen in that video, and the soil would be hard.

A core to 400mm depth would have shown root density and soil layering, could have been tested for various properties.

Not saying the Dutch didn't help, nor that they were wrong, just for something this unique it would have been good to get same real data we could all digest and learn from.

Sean Freeman · 13th September 2008, 02:26 PM

I don't disagree Eric, decompaction has little hard evidence to support the big claims made for it....I have made those claims myself in the past.

I do think that decompaction is often just one element of a range of serious soil related problems that impact on tree root health and often in undertaking decompaction with other treatments the overall impact is positive, but every time a single action is toughted as the answer I think its over simplified.

Certainly in the case of this tree if as described the existing grade had been dramatically altered even with organic matter this may well have had a significant impact on root health in the upper horizon, but what is the nature of the soils there, the various levels...moisture organic matter pH etc... let alone the living biology.

Root senescence is ongoing throughout the life of the tree, cycles of growth and expansion are followed by decline and restriction (in root tip growth, and root hair extension) what was the recent history (or indeed long term history) of this site with regards soil moisture etc...

I think it is good to have media events like this to highlight the significance of such trees raise the awareness in the general public, but as professionals we need to recognise what is over simplification and aimed at getting a general position across what is not.

Ekka · 13th September 2008, 05:35 PM

A nice summation in this piece, and lord knows what that tree's core could tell us about the environment with it's time capsuled heartwood.

From: Tree Health Care: Managing Natural Changes

Quote:

Trees are vital, functional parts of our communities, our homes and yards, and our lives. Just as importantly, most of us simply like trees. We especially like large, mature trees to shade our homes and streets and beautify our communities. Large trees are also more effective than small trees in cooling urban areas, using carbon dioxide from the air, reducing water runoff and soil erosion, and generally improving our environment.

Unfortunately, trees in our cities and communities often do not grow long enough or well enough to become nearly as large or as old as they would in typical forest conditions. Forest trees may live to be hundreds of years old or more, but the average city tree lives only 32 years and inner city trees only seven years. As a result, a large portion of our urban trees die well before maturity and never provide the aesthetic, economic, and functional benefits for which they were intended.

Why do our urban trees perform so poorly? First, they are living in a very harsh, unnatural environment. Secondly, most tree-care programs are reactionary. They focus on treating tree problems or symptoms after they develop rather than promoting comprehensive plant health care (PHC). We can do very little to alter the harsh urban environment. However, we can develop proactive tree programs that favor long-term tree health, reduce maintenance and replacement costs, and enhance tree longevity.

The Tree System

Every tree has a genetic code that enables it to grow to a certain height and exhibit specific growth characteristics. Whether a tree reaches its full growth potential depends on the effects of environmental factors and pest problems that can weaken it or drain energy from its system.

Yes, a tree is a system. All of its components are part of a single, interacting plant system. What happens in one part of the plant has an effect on the overall system. By understanding how the tree system grows, how it defends itself, and how it dies, we can apply proper, long-term tree care that can improve health and longevity.

HOW TREES LIVE

Energy - The Source of Life
Energy is needed to maintain order in the tree system. Trees depend on chlorophyll molecules, primarily in their leaves, to capture energy from the sun in a process called photosynthesis. The energy is stored in the chemical bonds that hold carbon, hydrogen and oxygen together as carbohydrates. The process of using the stored energy is called respiration. During respiration, high energy-yielding bonds of carbohydrate molecules are broken and the energy is released to "run" or "fuel" the biological work of the tree system.

Energy is allocated for various functions much like we allocate funds in our personal budgets. It is used to break dormancy in the spring and to produce and maintain adequate foliage as well as woody tissue found in trunks, branches and roots. It is required in high quantities for reproduction and for responding to regularly occurring wounds. Finally, some energy is stored for emergencies just as we allocate money in a savings account. In essence, the energy supply is the basis for the growth and defense of the tree system. When energy is deficient, either growth, defense, or both suffer.

WHY TREES DIE

Certain causes of tree death are obvious. Destructive forces of nature such as high winds, lightning, fire or other catastrophic events can physically destroy a tree in a relatively short period of time. Young, newly planted trees often die from lack of water, improper planting or other acute problems related to early tree care. However, what causes older, well established trees to eventually die? Essentially, they run out of energy! All living cells in the tree system require energy to survive. As trees age and grow, their massive size and structural complexity demands more energy. They have less energy stored for emergencies. As certain environmental or pest problems occur, energy demands increase, and reserves are depleted.

Think about a city tree growing in hard, compacted soil. The tree may appear healthy for a period of time. However, its roots are not growing well due to inadequate supplies of oxygen and moisture and an inability to penetrate the hard soil. The roots fail to supply the top of the tree with adequate water and nutrients. Fewer, smaller, yellowish leaves are produced. Consequently, carbohydrate production (energy storage) is reduced. The tree is unable to grow well because of low energy reserves. The tree is under stress.

Stress can be visualized much like a coiled spring with a heavy weight hanging from it. The weight stretches the spring to its limits. When the weight is removed, the spring returns to its "normal" state. If a heavier weight is hung from the spring, it may be so heavy that it stretches the spring beyond its ability to return to "normal" after the weight is removed. The spring can no longer function!

If the stress can be removed from our city tree, it may recover. Typically, however, other problems compound the situation. Periods of drought intensify the soil and root problems. The tree is wounded by a car. Insects attack the trunk. High amounts of energy (carbohydrates) are used for "defense." Energy levels are depleted further. The tree begins to decline and, if stress continues, the tree dies. The spring has stretched beyond its limits.

Figure 1 illustrates a typical urban tree "mortality spiral." Such a spiral can begin at any age and may take several years to run full course. The objective of comprehensive, long-term tree care programs is to use our knowledge of tree systems to prevent or minimize stress and avoid mortality spirals.

CHANGING ENERGY DEMANDS

Growth vs. Survival
As trees age, we see distinct changes in their ability to respond to stress (Figure 2). Young trees have a high ratio of photosynthetic (leaves) to non-photosynthetic (woody) tissue. Consequently, for their size, they produce a relatively high amount of energy. Healthy, young trees produce enough energy for growth and abundant storage. They tolerate environmental change and maintenance treatments. In contrast, mature trees have heavier demands on their energy supply. They utilize some energy for growth, but a large percentage is used just to maintain the massive amounts of existing tissues in the trunk, branches and roots. Additional energy is needed to seal wounds that occur from wind breakage, insect attacks and other sources and for the development of reproductive structures. Because of their tighter energy budget, mature trees have very little stored energy for responding to environmental change. In essence, mature, healthy trees are in delicate balance with their environment. The key to preserving this balance, and therefore their health, is to maintain environmental stability around mature trees.

Practical Significance
Comprehensive tree care programs should always be considered long-term. A program should begin before planting and should continue throughout the life of the tree. Practices should be geared to mesh with the natural changes that occur in the tree system. There are three important phases in urban tree development during which practices should be modified to meet the tree’s ability to withstand change These include the planting/establishment phase, a juvenile growth phase, and maturity.
Before planting, the most critical factor for consideration is tree selection. Too often we see the wrong tree species planted on a given site. For example, oaks, maples, elms or other species exhibiting large mature growth forms are often planted under utility lines and/or between sidewalks and street curbs. Over time the trees become stressed due to limited growing space, soil compaction or other factors, and due to their size, eventually must be heavily pruned. Attempts to force a tree to fit a given site by altering the crown or root system almost always leads to a shortened life span. In order to avoid this situation, we should be sure, prior to planting, that the species fits the site.

During planting, intensive care must be applied to assure early survival and to prevent rooting problems as the tree matures. Soil structure and moisture relations at the planting site become immediately important. In order for roots to grow, the soil must provide both water and air. Trees will not grow well in compacted or poorly drained soils.

During the juvenile growth phase, maintenance practices should take advantage of the tree’s vigor and ability to adapt to site changes and respond to maintenance treatments. Tree care practices during this period can ultimately determine the form and quality of the mature tree. Mulching and fertilization will help develop a good root system and a generally healthy tree. Pruning to promote proper branching and crown form should be done while the tree is young, so that pruning wounds will be relatively small. Energy reserves are available for sealing off wounds, and early pruning can reduce the necessity for structural pruning later, when wounding becomes more severe and the tree has less energy for recovery. Finally, comprehensive pest management practices should be established to prevent severe injury from insects and disease.

As the tree matures, its ability to tolerate and adapt to change decreases. Maintaining stable environmental conditions around the tree is vital to its continued health. Measures should be taken to protect the root area. Digging, grading, soil filling and other practices should be conducted so as not to damage roots, disrupt the exchange of soil oxygen and carbon dioxide or create moisture problems. Mulch should be maintained to conserve soil moisture and avoid soil compaction problems. The crown should be protected. Heavy pruning should be avoided except to remove dead or diseased branches. Pest management should be continued to prevent insect or disease problems.

Once mature trees begin to decline, they do not respond well to remedial or corrective treatments. For that reason, continuous tree care, beginning with tree selection and planting, and maintaining a stable environment around mature trees are absolute necessities for keeping healthy trees healthy!

Figure 1. Typical mortality spiral
for red oaks.

Figure 2. Relative ability of trees to tolerate and respond to environmental stress and maintenance treatments with age.

Sean Freeman · 13th September 2008, 05:37 PM

Excellent piece

Knotahippie · 13th September 2008, 08:28 PM

You bet

newguy18 · 19th September 2008, 01:24 PM

great diagram and post Eric,i do mainly removals but i also advocate planting small trees or large bushes and shrubs in thier place that in my opinion would stand a much better chance to reach maturity in a city enviroment instead of a large growing tree which would inevitably result in heavy pruning and eventual removal.

themoudie · 22nd May 2010, 10:48 AM

Just a few additional comments:

If the Bulk Density (BD) of the soil exceeds ~1.7 - 2.0 grams per cubic centimeter, tree roots are unable to penetrate the soil, as they are unable to produce sufficient internal cell pressure without rupturing the root cell walls, to force their way through the soil.

Mycorrhizza application is a 'red herring' in my opinion. They are site specific and often when introduced to a site, the very conditions you are trying to ameliorate, kill the mycorrhiza.

Mulches are supposed to be fully composted, friable and thinly applied. Piling on thick layers (>5cm) of green/raw/woody material just generates heat, takes up any available nitrogen from the site and often reduces the aerobic capacity of the soil, as it seals the surface beneath a slimy mess.

By spiking the ground ~1 meter either side of the drip line with a fork and slackening the soil to a depth of ~15cm and then applying a good mulch with a little bone meal mixed in and 'Brambling earthworms', the worms will open the soil up for you!

As for slackening the soil with lances, compressed air etc. Whilst this may reduce the compaction, it also reduces the mechanical strength of the soil. Big crown = big sail area, with reduced soil strength and a moderate wind + potential fungal infection of the root system you can loose the whole sheebang.

Thank you, if you read this wee piece, I'm not angry, I just get vexed as most of the problems I deal with daily with arb and silv tree problems are down to missing the detail and not noticing site specific inter-relationships.

My regards to you All, Bill.

Ekka · 22nd May 2010, 05:28 PM

Bill,

You need to read this thread, and the stack of PDF's there.
You are better off to auger the ground, get like a 1" drill and drill the hole, then rough up the sides with wire. If you use a tungsten tipped auger (concrete type of drill) you can drill the hole then stop with the bit in the soil and pull it out ... that roughs up the hole too. Only need to go, like you said, 6" to 10" deep, no big deal. But spiking compacts the soil around the spike, doesn't reduce mass/volume.

Soil Aeration Experiments| Grade Changes| Compaction| Decompaction

23rd May 2008, 09:51 PM	#2
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 2,130	Re: 12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tree Thats a good story Eric, and even if they paid only a fraction of that its still great to see such commitment to trying to conserve ancient trees and the ecosystems they are a pivital part of I'll ask some southern friends to in the UK to keep an eye and ear tuned for developments...the deck is a great idea, perhaps if it were outside the dripline they wouldn't need to cut anything off the tree at all.

23rd May 2008, 09:54 PM	#3
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort & Seldom Wrong Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 10,587	Re: 12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tree Yeah, it would be good to get some footage, 54' girth? Is that like around those 4 stems? Hard to make out what's going on there. __________________ TAS Training & Assessment Services\| Arb and Hort Training available here Free Online Tree Value Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online TPZ and SRZ AS4970-2009 Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online Tree Surface Area and Tree Volume Calculator by TreeWorld Free Tree and Green Industry Deep Link Directory ... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist, Tree and Arborist Reports \| Project Arborist

23rd May 2008, 09:57 PM	#4
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 2,130	Re: 12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tre Its not a tree I have heard of before but will look it up, I imagine you're right they're measuring the four stems as if they were still connected forming one large trunk, but hard to be certain.

1st June 2008, 01:38 AM	#5
DBS Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: CT USA Posts: 200	Re: 12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tre i also was a bit confused from the 54" girth. that would yield a 17" diameter stem. from what i see they are much larger than that... edit* i guess i am more confused than i should be i read it as 54" not 54'...LMAO..... so all things considered... 17 FOOT diameter seems false as well.... __________________ Stihl MS 200T Stihl MS 361

1st June 2008, 09:04 AM	#6
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort & Seldom Wrong Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 10,587	Re: 12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tre Maybe 54m?! What's annoying about these stories is getting the outcomes ... be good to know who went and email them. Hey Quercus, any chance you know any of these guys etc? __________________ TAS Training & Assessment Services\| Arb and Hort Training available here Free Online Tree Value Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online TPZ and SRZ AS4970-2009 Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online Tree Surface Area and Tree Volume Calculator by TreeWorld Free Tree and Green Industry Deep Link Directory ... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist, Tree and Arborist Reports \| Project Arborist

1st June 2008, 08:13 PM	#7
quercus Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: belgium Posts: 378	Re: 12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tre nah mate, don't know them... but next week it's the Dutch national treeclimbing championship and I'll ask around for ya ok... In fact, I'll start e-mailing some people right now. Greetz

30th June 2008, 08:39 AM	#8
dguntertrees Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Mudgeeraba, SE Queensland Posts: 82	Re: 12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tre Sean, Sweet Chestnut is Castanea sativa, quite common in the UK, but not native.

17th July 2008, 11:38 PM	#9
quercus Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: belgium Posts: 378	Re: 12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tre It seems as though I know a few of these guys, after hearing around. Is there something ya'll would like to know? Funny thing is they climbed it, but didn't do anything to it.

13th September 2008, 05:41 AM	#10
Harrie Sappling Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: The Netherlands, Eindhoven Posts: 26	Re: 12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tre Someone posted the following movie on the dutch forum, the quality is unfortunately very poor, it gives some impression of the trees. Greetz Harrie Dutch Forum Treehugs.nl - Home of the boomknuffelaar You Tube YouTube - BBC SouthEast Tree Rescue 22 May 2008 __________________ Soontiens Boomverzorging http://www.tuincentrumsoontiens.nl

13th September 2008, 06:02 AM	#11
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 2,130	Re: 12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tre Thanks for the posting, great vid...they were lucky guys those Dutch Arbs, shame the BBC reporting wasn't better would have liked to hear more about what it was they thought was going on in the soil, personally beginning to believe that whilst compaction can be a problem for all plants trees included but it is more often part of a greater range of interrelated set of environmental factors...we often misunderstand just how widspread the root system is and where it is in the soil, and how it is interacting with other organisms and elements there..still what a cracker that chestnut beautiful.

13th September 2008, 08:12 AM	#12
willem Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: the netherlands Posts: 169	Re: 12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tre Hello Sean, My boss was one of the twelve arborists who went overthere. He is the one they call the soilexpert in the interview. He told me that the tree is in a really bad shape. He had seen the tree a couple of years back and then it was in much better condition. He said a local arborist had brought in a couple of truck loads of fresh woodchips and covered the roots +\- 30 cm thick!! This smoothering of the roots started the decline of the condition of this tree.

13th September 2008, 09:22 AM	#13
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 2,130	Re: 12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tre Thanks willem, thats a better more informed view...I guess they thought they were doing the right thing but more is not always better! Personally would not have removed any deadwood....but again probably not getting the correct picture from the BBC there either.

13th September 2008, 09:28 AM	#14
willem Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: the netherlands Posts: 169	Re: 12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tre I talked to one of the climbers. He removed some dead wood in the crown but only so the bbc had some nice shots. The climber told me that if all the dead wood was removed there wouldn't be much of a crown left.

13th September 2008, 09:53 AM	#15
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 2,130	Re: 12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tre Thanks Willem....much better info

13th September 2008, 10:27 AM	#16
JayD Moderator Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: TreeWorld, Sydney Australia Posts: 1,619	Re: 12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tre WoW, What a big lovely old tree,Obviously in decline. Here's a theory for you to mull over,We all know we inherit our characteristics from our parents,Right, Well maybe dad tree was a strong healthy bearer of his DNA, and mum tree through her line had a DNA imperfection and her line did not live as long as generally expected of this species. Because of this, This tree is naturally in it's spiral of decline and sadly all the kings horse's and all the kings men can not stop what has be pre determined in this grand old tree's DNA. __________________ Level 4 Arborist/ FPIFGM 3204A: Fall trees manually (intermediate) Arboriculture, A life long study for some, a passing phase for others

13th September 2008, 10:49 AM	#17
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 2,130	Re: 12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tre If the tree is indeed in the 1000yr range then it is well and truely into the last half of its life just like any organism a big part of the latter years is increased susceptability to many of the pressures (environmental etc..) that were not really significant at all in the earlier stages of life. But we should never loose sight of the importance that trees play in the wider (more important) ecology of the local environment, their decline is part of that bigger cycle, its hard enough for us to comprehend the interrelationships immediately surrounding the tree, let alone the part each tree plays and the place it takes in the greater more complex range of connections in the wider environment.

13th September 2008, 11:13 AM	#18
Knotahippie Mature tree Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bay Area Ca. Posts: 367	Re: 12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tre Some good info. on ancient trees here... Ancient Tree Forum

13th September 2008, 11:38 AM	#19
Knotahippie Mature tree Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bay Area Ca. Posts: 367	Re: 12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tre I always liked the idea of compaction remediation/pruning in small, seasonal stages. Let the tree compartmentalize a little at a time. Read some really interesting info on tree related organisms and potential benifits, said that mice/owls/castings help many Sp. of mychorriza get from one area to another. Seems like deadwood stabilization could be somthing to consider...

13th September 2008, 02:02 PM	#20
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 2,130	Re: 12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tre Yes its an amazing range of ever developing relationships between flora and fauna of all scales!

13th September 2008, 02:12 PM	#21
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort & Seldom Wrong Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 10,587	Re: 12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tre I'm intrigued about the air theory, after reading and a little research it could well be a myth. Was there any testing of the soil to show what it was like? I dont think the human eye is capable of determining soil air levels etc. To say it would die in 5 years without treatment would at best be a guess. And to say you'd get another 195 years out of it by treating it is yet another guess. When all of these factors can be measured and quantified then we move ahead, till then we are just guessing. Could well be a lighter layer of mulch, generic soil treatment with mycorrhizal fungi is all it needed. You certainly wouldn't be able to get a borer or dig a hole in the ground here as easily as seen in that video, and the soil would be hard. A core to 400mm depth would have shown root density and soil layering, could have been tested for various properties. Not saying the Dutch didn't help, nor that they were wrong, just for something this unique it would have been good to get same real data we could all digest and learn from. __________________ TAS Training & Assessment Services\| Arb and Hort Training available here Free Online Tree Value Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online TPZ and SRZ AS4970-2009 Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online Tree Surface Area and Tree Volume Calculator by TreeWorld Free Tree and Green Industry Deep Link Directory ... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist, Tree and Arborist Reports \| Project Arborist

13th September 2008, 02:26 PM	#22
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 2,130	Re: 12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tre I don't disagree Eric, decompaction has little hard evidence to support the big claims made for it....I have made those claims myself in the past. I do think that decompaction is often just one element of a range of serious soil related problems that impact on tree root health and often in undertaking decompaction with other treatments the overall impact is positive, but every time a single action is toughted as the answer I think its over simplified. Certainly in the case of this tree if as described the existing grade had been dramatically altered even with organic matter this may well have had a significant impact on root health in the upper horizon, but what is the nature of the soils there, the various levels...moisture organic matter pH etc... let alone the living biology. Root senescence is ongoing throughout the life of the tree, cycles of growth and expansion are followed by decline and restriction (in root tip growth, and root hair extension) what was the recent history (or indeed long term history) of this site with regards soil moisture etc... I think it is good to have media events like this to highlight the significance of such trees raise the awareness in the general public, but as professionals we need to recognise what is over simplification and aimed at getting a general position across what is not.

13th September 2008, 05:37 PM	#24
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 2,130	Re: 12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tre Excellent piece

13th September 2008, 08:28 PM	#25
Knotahippie Mature tree Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bay Area Ca. Posts: 367	Re: 12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tre You bet

19th September 2008, 01:24 PM	#26
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: orlando,fl Posts: 5,238	Re: 12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tre great diagram and post Eric,i do mainly removals but i also advocate planting small trees or large bushes and shrubs in thier place that in my opinion would stand a much better chance to reach maturity in a city enviroment instead of a large growing tree which would inevitably result in heavy pruning and eventual removal. __________________ Have your say join us today. I ship USA saws out of the USA old schooler

22nd May 2010, 10:48 AM	#27
themoudie Sappling Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Scotland Posts: 6	Re: 12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tre Just a few additional comments: If the Bulk Density (BD) of the soil exceeds ~1.7 - 2.0 grams per cubic centimeter, tree roots are unable to penetrate the soil, as they are unable to produce sufficient internal cell pressure without rupturing the root cell walls, to force their way through the soil. Mycorrhizza application is a 'red herring' in my opinion. They are site specific and often when introduced to a site, the very conditions you are trying to ameliorate, kill the mycorrhiza. Mulches are supposed to be fully composted, friable and thinly applied. Piling on thick layers (>5cm) of green/raw/woody material just generates heat, takes up any available nitrogen from the site and often reduces the aerobic capacity of the soil, as it seals the surface beneath a slimy mess. By spiking the ground ~1 meter either side of the drip line with a fork and slackening the soil to a depth of ~15cm and then applying a good mulch with a little bone meal mixed in and 'Brambling earthworms', the worms will open the soil up for you! As for slackening the soil with lances, compressed air etc. Whilst this may reduce the compaction, it also reduces the mechanical strength of the soil. Big crown = big sail area, with reduced soil strength and a moderate wind + potential fungal infection of the root system you can loose the whole sheebang. Thank you, if you read this wee piece, I'm not angry, I just get vexed as most of the problems I deal with daily with arb and silv tree problems are down to missing the detail and not noticing site specific inter-relationships. My regards to you All, Bill.

22nd May 2010, 05:28 PM	#28
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort & Seldom Wrong Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 10,587	Re: 12 Dutch arborists paid £400 each to travel to travel to Kent to save 1000 yo tre Bill, You need to read this thread, and the stack of PDF's there. You are better off to auger the ground, get like a 1" drill and drill the hole, then rough up the sides with wire. If you use a tungsten tipped auger (concrete type of drill) you can drill the hole then stop with the bit in the soil and pull it out ... that roughs up the hole too. Only need to go, like you said, 6" to 10" deep, no big deal. But spiking compacts the soil around the spike, doesn't reduce mass/volume. Soil Aeration Experiments\| Grade Changes\| Compaction\| Decompaction __________________ TAS Training & Assessment Services\| Arb and Hort Training available here Free Online Tree Value Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online TPZ and SRZ AS4970-2009 Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online Tree Surface Area and Tree Volume Calculator by TreeWorld Free Tree and Green Industry Deep Link Directory ... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist, Tree and Arborist Reports \| Project Arborist

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