Single trunk | single pith | How to be certain?

Eric Frei

For trees to be nominated in the register they have to be single trunked or pithed.

Source: Tree Measurement : National Register of Big Trees

Now I did have a tree punted a while ago as it was contested. This one.


Now it was pretty obvious for that tree but not all bifurcations are equal, as in dimensions.

Here's two potential trees where there could be an anomaly.

Tree Register : National Register of Big Trees

Tree Register : National Register of Big Trees

Today I attended the Somerset's Council's Biggest Tree Competition awards and the largest trees nominees showed me their find.

It's a huge tree, but when I saw pictures I got curious, same now for the Tinglapa tree I nominated. We always think bifurcations or codominant stems are equal but they do not have to be, sometimes one is larger than the other. Sometimes low vertical collarless branches also confuse the issue too.

So I had to go and see this huge tree and check it out. You see in the picture of it on the register I could see what might have been two trunks, one clearly dominating the other and it would have been a very bazaar branching pattern. The Tinglapa tree was most likely to have a low branch that didn't shed and was engulfed by the trunk (theory of mine).

In this picture you can see the seam of what appears to be 2 stems, the red circle is where two large branches have fully grafted.



So lets go around the other side and see what is going on. Hmm, this gets very interesting. Starting up the top red circled the seam.



I expect about now you are starting to draw some conclusions but here comes the really interesting part. The base hidden behind those shrubs.







Here's my theory. The tree was dual pithed and many years ago, maybe 200 years ago there was a serious failure of the RH leader but some remained. The trunk grew trying to occlude what was left of the stump but the opening was too wide to complete the occlusion. Part of the remaining stem continued to grow and formed part of the canopy, a large interfering branch grafted to the LH trunk.

Those last two pics show what appears to be an old horizontal branch collar. Pretty bazaar to have such a low branch in that spot that diameter but it tells me the branch was a decent size coming straight out of the trunk.

So what happens when a mature bifurcated dual pithed tree fails and the remaining leader occludes the damaged one? Doesn't that mean then we have an increased girth size?

Of course this is all theory.

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derekmcintosh

Hi Eric,

I love it! Thanks so much for this most critical and helpful analysis. Nothing like a 'punted champion' to come back fighting. I would like to share it with a few of my supporters and friends. How do I do this, or do they have to register with Treeworld first? I will go back and read and study it again as I am on the run chasing big trees until I return to Sydney Friday.

How do we share this with the Keller family, and Trevor Page? The Kellers are so excited about it all, and having you go there immediately after the Presentation was a classic example of striking while the iron is hot. They will now be a hazard on the roads in Somerset RC as they will be constantly rubber-necking trees looking for bigger ones, or in their case, seeking confirmation of smaller ones

Kind regards,

Eric Frei

Well, I am not dead sure it is a dual pith, but this is one heck of a good reason to discover a method of knowing.

As many of the trees are going to be really old, it is likely that some wounds etc will have happened, and chances are no-ones old enough to know about it but the tree.

Taking a core wont tell you if it is 2 piths. What about when the centre is hollow?

A core will have vertical lines for rings, but how will you know what pith the line is from? I mean if you went straight through sets of rings you'd still get just a bunch of lines. So cores is not really the solution.

We need similar to a cat-scan a vertical snap shot like when you cut a tree down and see the rings.

Now have a read of this post below I got from here. To the layman there would be no dispute the tree was 1 trunk. And that was an epic failure.

So we need to see somehow a basal cut like the last pic.

And finally, to share this is very easy, heck people can subscribe to the thread too and use RSS feed.

Simply send this link around, copy paste it and send it.

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Brent Ferris

Eric My experience in taking cores - for several years - when you are close to the centre there is a curvature to the lines (if you don't go thru the pith) that should tell you the pith is near, and if you core past the pith, the curvature should be in the opposite direction. As long as the two piths are fairly close, you should be able to tell, plus -- under magnification -- there is usually different wood structure between the piths. Usually the bigger problem is not having a long enough corer. Hollow trees are a lot tougher,

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My business: Tree Pruning and Removals -- Strump Removals -- Advice -- Consulting -- Arborist Reports
If you want an honest opinion, call Brent Ferris...because, Trees want to Live Too !
We do great jobs, even in small yards.

Free Estimates Oakville to Oshawa - North to Bradford (Will travel further if cost of travelling covered)

derekmcintosh

Hi Brent,

Most interesting. A pity you live a little to far for me to get you over to have a look at a few 'problem' trees. I had no idea when I started the Register that there would be such big issues with multi-stemmed trees.
Regards, Derek.

Eric Frei

I have a 500mm corer, it's large but no enough to make the centres of these trees.

Also these eucs are tough wood, I'd hate to bust the corer which is likely.

Need a non invasive technique for this but I'm unsure if any would be able to see rings and the hollow centre issue remains.

Here's a picture of another tree nearby which has had one of the co-doms die. Now imagine this if it happened when the tree was slightly smaller and more vigorous. The left hand dead section continues to rot away and eventually become hollow. The right hand living section starts to occlude the left hand co-dominant. A few hundred years later you have a single looking trunk but it originated from a co-dominant configuration. Of course I think the tree we are looking at (the winner) had a failure to the ground making this process happen quicker.

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Jeff Darby

Your observations sure makes you start thinking, if we have a hollow all evidence of co dominent would be lost ? as the tree is estimated @ approx. 200 years old even local knowledge is lost as well. I can see why you flagged this tree for further investigation, it's just working how to verify the facts.

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Eric Frei

That tree is maybe 500 years old but the damage could have occurred 200 years ago etc.

Seriously, for all we know it had 3 trunks (trifurcation) and the end one split off, the middle one grafted.

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Eric Frei

Here's some pics that I had sent to me.

Very interesting set up, now it could have been similar to this and the trunk out on it's own could have been closer and failed with the tree trying to occlude that.

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derekmcintosh

Commentary by Dean Nicolle:
“It is possible and relatively inexpensive to undertake what’s called a ‘sonic tomograph’ (essentially an untrasound) on the trunk, which gives you a computerised graphic of what the trunk looks like in cross section, as if the tree was cut down. It is completely non-destructive and is mainly used to ascertain the structural integrity of tree trunks, as it clearly indicates the extent of hollowing, decay etc. which isn’t visible from the outside. The big forest red gum would be an interesting tree to tomograph, considering the images and discussion of Eric Frei.”

Dean Nicolle
Currency Creek Arboretum Eucalypt Research
South Australia
Ph. (08) 8270 6056
Mob. 0413 214 303
dn@dn.com.au
Dean Nicolle - Currency Creek Arboretum Eucalypt Research

Eric Frei

I am most versed in the diagnostic tools for tree work but I doubt (and already mentioned that) it could see growth rings and a pith, and what if the centre is hollow?

All tomograph results I have seen did not show the detail of growth rings or a pith. They will always show a circular reading due to the positioning of the sensors.

sonic tomograph - Google Search

It appears at this stage only the Toogoolawah burl tree is of totally straight and single stem for certain, the other two mentioned above need to be validated.

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derekmcintosh

A further comment by Dean Nicolle:

The “old horizontal branch collar” at the base of this tree is actually an old root collar, and nothing to do with a branch. That is, the scar is from an old lateral root which has long-ago broken and/or rotted away, with the soil around the root also having been eroded away. Thus the images of Eric Frei of the ‘base’ of the tree are actually of the root system (below the original soil level), and not of the trunk of the tree.

An interesting tree!!

Eric Frei

Sure, but is it one trunk?

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Brent Ferris

It really looks like the original tree posted was originally a single stem with a single root system, with an early or low offshoot, that later died. If it really had been two stems, the seam between the two stems should have extended to the ground on both sides of the existing trunk. This one does not.

As far as the coring Eric, I presume you keep your corer super sharp. I have found the biggest problem drilling into hard trees is the friction created, and the high tendency of the corer to snap off. I have not heard of a way to counter the high heat while still getting a decent core.

The hollow tree issue is really of no consequence. The only two ways that I know of to counter that lack of info, is 1) drill a comparably sized tree in the immediate vicinity and see if the growths are similar and then extrapolate the info you want or 2) drill higher in the same tree and attempt to extrapolate growth towards the base. Height and diameter are strongly related, and knowing the growth characteristics of a given species an estimate can be possible.

The first option is usually not available. The 2nd option can be viable, except that trunk rot often extends a considerable distance upwards.

I say the hollow tree is really of no consequence, because if the tree was cut down and the rings were visible, the hollow centre would still yield no useful info. For the diameter you have, and the growth rings you can access, and assuming similar growth rates, you can extrapolate back to a rough 10 year period when the tree likely started growing. The best friend you have to extrapolate early growth, is historical records. When was the area logged? or burned? What was the density of the trees on the site when the tree in question started growing and how long before it changed. Utilizing the records of other trees of the same species, how likely is the growth rate to have dramatically altered during its growth.

This won't give you a precise year of birth, just a reasonable guesstimate.

If you want to get exact, you'll need to find a way to travel back in time.

__________________
My business: Tree Pruning and Removals -- Strump Removals -- Advice -- Consulting -- Arborist Reports
If you want an honest opinion, call Brent Ferris...because, Trees want to Live Too !
We do great jobs, even in small yards.

Free Estimates Oakville to Oshawa - North to Bradford (Will travel further if cost of travelling covered)

Eric Frei

It is not the age we are trying to determine, it is whether or not the tree has an increased girth from having more than one pith or trunk. It may have had a subordinate bifurcation or trifurcation that did fail which has been occluded.

The point scoring system for these trees is most weighted to the trunk circumference in inches.

As far as historical events for a single tree that's 100's of years old, no chance.

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Brent Ferris

Of course it will have an increased girth if it has more than one pith, as long as the new shoot achieved any size -- even if that is 1 year. Every new pith generates new wood tissue in a complete circle. IF the two stems should run into each other, the outsides generally grow more to compensate for the lack of growth between them. Whether the two (or more) stems with squashed insides will have a greater girth than a single unobstructed stem -- that is harder to say.

While there may be no active written records thru the past several hundred years, if one can take samples of large trees that are removed, their trunks may allow you to build up a history of events. And perhaps, some of the Aborigines could fill in past events. Just a thought.

__________________
My business: Tree Pruning and Removals -- Strump Removals -- Advice -- Consulting -- Arborist Reports
If you want an honest opinion, call Brent Ferris...because, Trees want to Live Too !
We do great jobs, even in small yards.

Free Estimates Oakville to Oshawa - North to Bradford (Will travel further if cost of travelling covered)

Eric Frei

Brent, if you were closer we'd sink a few and have one heck of a night out.

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Brent Ferris

Thanks Eric. I wish I was closer, or had the wherewithal to visit.

Not sure about the night out though, would play real havoc with weight control - lol.

__________________
My business: Tree Pruning and Removals -- Strump Removals -- Advice -- Consulting -- Arborist Reports
If you want an honest opinion, call Brent Ferris...because, Trees want to Live Too !
We do great jobs, even in small yards.

Free Estimates Oakville to Oshawa - North to Bradford (Will travel further if cost of travelling covered)