Unknown hickory?

MikeSwim07

Hi again,

I am pretty sure this tree is some kind of hickory.

There are two kinds of nuts under the tree. But the tree is in a dense forest so I'm not sure which one belongs to the hickory. I am pretty sure that the larger seed is the hickory seed and the smaller one belongs to another tree.

Also, the 7th picture that I posted is of another tree that I think is an ash. Is that what it is?

What kind of hickory do you think this is?

Thanks

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cte539

I'm guessing, Mockernut Hickory
Carya tomentosa
Pic 4: black walnut
Pic 6: black walnut
Pic 9: hickory nut

Brent Ferris

Your hickory pic looks to show an elongated yellow bud, suggesting Bitternut Hickory (Carya cordiformis). THe Ash might be Red Ash (Fraxinus pennsylvanica) -- need a closeup of leaf and buds on branch for beter idea.

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MikeSwim07

Hmm,

Hickorys seem very similar.

So which of the nuts belong to the hickory?

Is it a bitternut or mockernut?

The larger fruit that is not brown in the picture that I posted used to be green.

I will try to get a better picture of the ash tree for you.

MikeSwim07

Here are some more pictures of the fruit and nut of the hickory.

I will try to get some better pictures of the ash, but its hard because the foliage is all pretty high up in the tree. There don't seem to be lower branches.

I am pretty sure these ash leaves turn yellow in the fall, not red, if that helps.

The last 3 pictures are of the ash with its seeds.

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Brent Ferris

The husks are walnut, prob Black Walnut - start green, turn to brown - remove the husk to get to the shell, remove the shell to get to the meat - one of the highest protein contents of nuts, around 19% I have read.

The ash look like green ash, but need to see leaf edges and buds to be certain.

Both Bitternut and Mockernut have inedible fruit, characteristics are similar -- perhaps someone more familiar with hickories can help narrow down the variety. Try the following links.

http://Mockernut Hickory

http://Ontario's Tree Atlas: Bitternut Hickory (Carya Cordiformis ...

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MikeSwim07

So you think that I have a black walnut as well as either a mockernut or bitternut?

Also, I will try to get a closeup of the leaves tomorrow of the ash.

Thanks

Brent Ferris

Do you have pics of the various trees on your property you are trying to identify - distant shots and closeups. Sometimes the form of a tree can help us identify it.

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MikeSwim07

Hi,

Here are some pictures of the trees from far.
(number's are in the pictures above the tree)
1. The ash
2. I think the black walnut. I found the large green fruit under this tree.
3. Some hickory - found the smaller nuts under here
4. Some hickory - found the smaller nuts under here

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Eden Keeper

The bark looks more like sweetgum, Liquidambar styraciflua L., since the hickories usually have a diamond pattern where the bark splits. The yellow buds are definitive on bitternut hickory, Carya cordiformis (Wangenh.) K. Koch, while the hickory nut is consistent. The black walnut, Juglans nigra L., leaves usually lack a terminal leaflet resulting in an even rather than odd number as in hickory and ash. The ash leaflets strike me as being relatively narrow and could indicate blue ash, Fraxinus quadrangulata Michx., which can be definitively identified if the twigs are square in cross-section while the bark is also rougher and the habitat has limestone bedrock, otherwise I can't rule out black ash, F. nigra Marsh., based on the range. The colors (red, white, green, black, blue) in the ash common names are almost meaningless due to the indicative key (whether underside of leaf or bark characteristic) not necessarily being definitive, besides green and red are synonymous.

MikeSwim07

I'm pretty sure that tree isn't sweetgum. The leaves are definitely not like sweetgum leves and it doesn't produce the type of seeds that sweetgums do.

So you do think that I have a bitternut hickory as well as a black walnut?

I am pretty sure there is not limestone bedrock.

Eden Keeper

I'll admit that due to living in a range gap I've only seen one bitternut hickory (it happens to be the Alabama Co-champion of that species) and while doing some further checking I saw that the bark can be less like other hickories thus the confusion with sweetgum.
The yellow buds of bitternut hickory are as definitive as the green husk on the black walnut so you have both a bitternut hickory and a black walnut.
The pith is chambered in walnuts and the solid in hickories and the (green) hull splints on hickories unlike on walnuts.
Getting the ash to species will require a close up of the samara (with a scale) since there are (minute) differences in the shape (as well as size) of the wing and its attachment to the seed. Based on habitat and range it is most likely white, green, or black (while another less "color"fly named species is pumpkin ash) with these listed in order of the chances of being found from upland to wetland.

MikeSwim07

Hmm, I don't think I will be able to get a closeup of the ash seeds because they are way to high up in the tree. There are no low branches.

So with the ash and hickory (and the gum/shingle oak from the other thread) do you recommend taking a small branch off and cutting it in half and looking at the inside or posting a picture on this thread?

Thanks

Eden Keeper

The ash seed will begin falling soon enough whether normally or due to weather and/or wildlife.

Go for it (especially if you have a camera with a macro lens/function) on posting a photo showing solid, diaphramed, and chambered pith since there are few if any in the forum.

Brent Ferris

I agree with Eden keepers comments. You have both a Bitternut Hickory and a Black Walnut. Might be able to tell the ash from the bark, (black is usually more strippy, green is more interweaved) but a fallen twig from the trees can also give helpful clues. I have never seen a blue ash, only know about the square twigs in cross section. And as he says, the samaras should start falling within a month or so, and you can post those pictures then - with a scale(ruler) for size. THe pic #1 in trees from afar is definitely an ash, the others are harder to be sure about.

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MikeSwim07

Sure,

Here is a picture of the bark on the ash.

I will get pictures of the seeds when they start falling.

The branch might be harder to do but I will try to see what I can do. How exactly do you do the cross sectional cut of the branch?

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Brent Ferris

I am pretty sure the bark in pic # 1 and 2 is green ash.

Longitudinal cross-section. Hold a twig in hand and carefully split it along its length or cut across the twig at 10 to 45 deg. BOth will reveal the pith, and help with identification. The twig is usually 1/2 to 1 inch diameter.,

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MikeSwim07

Hi,

I am unable to reach any of the twigs/branches because they are too high up in the tree. I found what seems to be small ash trees very close to the large one because they have similar leaves as the ash, opposite arrangement of branches, etc. I took a branch off of this and it is definitely not a square twig in cross section, which I think can rule out blue ash.

I guess we wait until the seeds drop.

MikeSwim07

here are pictures of the seeds!

About 3cm long.

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Eden Keeper

The plump seed portion is more like white ash, Fraxinus americana L., and this is more consistent with the length since 3 cm would be a minimum size for green ash compared to 2.5 cm for white ash. Another key to distinguish them is the size of new twig growth relative to that of the previous year, but I forgot which was which although when I did remember I recall that few examples consistently conformed to the conventional keys of habitat, leaf color, and leaflet number while the bark was indistinguishable (to me) it is about like trying to tell identical twins apart when no offspring is around. Even for blue ash it helps to be next next to either a green or white ash of a comparable size for bark difference to be completely obvious.

MikeSwim07

Thanks for your help.

It's too bad that I can't get a leaf. Would that make the ID easier? Or is it not worth it?

There is an ash tree (I think) that is only about 10 ft tall about 10 feet away from this ash tree. Would there be any use in looking at the leaves on that tree? Would I need shade leaves or sun leaves?

Thanks again

Brent Ferris

Either sun or shade - might as well post a pic of the leaves, high likelihood it is the same species. Telling the differences between Ashes is difficult - a lot of relative stuff. Mostly, it doesn't make much difference -- habitats are very similar, life span, size of tree - White Ash usually gets bigger than Green, Black is usually smaller (prob because they grow in wetter soils) and blue ash (I think) is the smallest of the four, and not at all common. It sounds like Eden Keeper has the differences better in hand, so I'll defer to his opinion.

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MikeSwim07

Here are pictures of the leaves...hopefully these can help but I understand it is hard to tell.

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Brent Ferris

pic 1 looks more like white ash with wider leaflets, # 4 looks more like green ash with somewhat narrower leaflets, but green ash usually has slightly serrated margins, while white ash are usually entire (smooth) - So it is likely to be White Ash, as Eden Keeper said with the samara identification

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MikeSwim07

Thank you!