maybe Chaenomeles speciosa, maybe Malus halliana, or...

daygan · 28th May 2011, 12:44 AM

I bought a tree in China and the seller told me that it was a "Hai Tang". Since then, I have learned that "Hai Tang" is actually a name that is used in China for at least seven different shrubs/trees, namely Chaenomeles Speciosa, Chaenomeles Sinensis, Chaenomeles Japonica, 'Alba Plena' Camellia Japonica, Malus Halliana, Malus Spectabilis, and Malus Hupehensis.

So I need to figure out which one of these it actually is. My thought is that it's most similar to pictures I've found of the Chaenomeles Speciosa (except without thorns) and Malus Halliana (except the flowers are a bit darker).

Here are some pictures:

daygan · 28th May 2011, 12:33 PM

I accidentally posted this before I made some edits that I needed to make.

It should actually be "at least six different trees/shrubs" - 'Alba Plena' Camellia Japonica, I understand, is actually a type of Malus Spectabilis.

.. and here's a picture of a leaf:

I'll try to get some more photos soon and post them. If anyone needs any more information or any specific part of the tree photographed, let me know. Thanks!

daygan · 29th May 2011, 08:41 PM

also confusing to me is the fact that the flowers seem to have a great many petals, whereas information about both Malus and Chaenomeles genera that I'm finding is that their flowers have only five petals.

So, does anyone have any idea yet, or do you want more pictures?

jmcg.insight.gardens · 29th May 2011, 10:12 PM

Hi Daygan

there are double flowers in the cultivars of all Genera you mention, which mean they have more petals than the species.

No thorns you say?

How soft are the leaves?

Camelia leaves are not easily crushed, while the leaves of Malus and Chaenomeles are supple and easily crushed.

How shiny are the leaves?

Camelia leaves are very shiny while Malus and Chaenomeles are not very shiny.

It reminds me more of a Chaenomeles because of the shiny bark, which also has double cultivars, but they have thorns, so perhaps a Malus.

Do you think that since it has been pruned the thorns might have been removed, you would see some scars on the stem?

The leaves look larger than a Chaenomeles would normally be, but photos can be deceptive.

Some thoughts for you to ponder.

Julie

daygan · 30th May 2011, 01:55 PM

jmcg.insight.gardens:

Thanks for your reply! To answer your questions:

The flowers are soft and easily crushed (like Malus and Chaenomeles)

The leaves don't seem shiny to me (like Malus and Chaenomeles)

The bark is actually not so shiny - the picture I uploaded was one taken right after I had misted it. Here are two pictures of the bark when it's dry:

I don't see any scars where thorns might have been pruned away, although I have found advertisements of Chaenomeles which do not have thorns.

The leaves are about two inches (6.5 cm) at their largest (not including stem).

Looking forward to your insights!

jmcg.insight.gardens · 30th May 2011, 09:54 PM

Hi Daygan

It would help me if I could have a picture of where the flower joins the stem. A clear shot of the calyx would help clarify things and the length of the stalk.

I am leaning to Chaenomeles due to the flower at the moment, but I cannot be certain until I see a clear shot of this part of the plant.

Please look at these links, it might help to get a picture that shows what I need clearly.

Image standards for woody angiosperms

daygan · 31st May 2011, 12:39 AM

Okay, I think I've almost figured it out. I found information on the stipules of Chaenomeles Speciosa, Chaenomeles Sinensis, Chaenomeles Japonica, Malus Halliana, Malus Spectabilis, and Malus Hupehensis. All of the Malus' have lanceolate stipules, and the Chaenomeles' have reniform, ovate-oblong, rhomboidal, suborbicular, ovate, or lanceolate stipules. My plant's stipules are definitely not lanceolate, so that rules our and of the Malus species. They are more reniform, usually, which also rules out Chaenomeles Sinensis, which, from what I've found, has longer, almost lanceolate stipules.

So I think that leaves Chaenomeles Specios or Chaenomeles Japonica.. but I'll see what jmcg.insight.gardens has to say after seeing the flower pictures. Sorry, there's only one flower left and it's not in very good condition:

jmcg.insight.gardens · 31st May 2011, 11:38 PM

Hi Daygan

as I thought, the peduncle is too long for Chaenomeles, have a look at the picture I posted.

It does not look like Malus to me either, but I could be wrong.

I am not familiar with your Flora. I will need to refer to my books, I will post as soon as I come up with something.

You say it has stipules, that is helpful.

You have so many species in your country, many beautiful.

daygan · 1st June 2011, 12:05 AM

Interesting story about that peduncle there: I didn't even know it was there until a few weeks ago. Evidently part of the tree had been covered by dirt in it's pot, and the only thing that tipped me off to the fact that something more might be under there was this flower bud that popped out of the dirt a few weeks ago.

By the way, China's not really my country - I'm from America. But, yes, they do have some cool flora here.

Anyway, I'll be waiting for your thoughts, jmcg.insight.gardens!

jmcg.insight.gardens · 1st June 2011, 09:28 PM

Hi Daygan,

The name sounded Chinese, oops, shouldn't have presumed.

I'll get onto those books soon.

Interesting story and a curiosity of a plant.

jmcg.insight.gardens · 4th June 2011, 01:57 AM

Hi Daygan,

boy, your plant has done my head in a bit

well, I think that the plant is most likely Malus spectabilis, after quite a bit of research on E.Org Flora of China and other sites.

Assuming it is Rosaceae, as it has stipules, lenticels, etc.

The flowers are a bit faded, but good enough to find a likeness.

Malus spectabilis is called 海棠花 hai tang hua, it is a very popular tree in China and there is a double cultivar called Malus spectabilis var. riversii which has double flowers which would explain the extra petals.

I base my assumption on the hypanthium ( a bit shrivalled in your photo, but still a guide) and corolla shape, whilst the peduncle is longer in your photo is could be variable in cultivars.

What did my head in initially, is my assumption that Malus flower from spurs, but my research has proved that they can also flower axially.

I have attached a key to Malus spectabilis. Plus a link to a site that is a feild herbarium of China . Hope the link works.

Hope this helps. Mind you the only way to tell for sure is to wait for fruit. Then you will know for sure. The bonsai of Malus look awesome.

11.4.21

Malus in Flora of China @ efloras.org
Malus spectabilis in Flora of China @ efloras.org

daygan · 4th June 2011, 01:45 PM

okay. yeah, the description in the guide is probably the closest to what I have .. but what about the fact that Malus Spectabilus' stipules are "narrowly lanceolate", and caducous while this tree's are definitely reniform.. and don't seem to be falling off at all... ??

jmcg.insight.gardens · 4th June 2011, 09:55 PM

hi Daygan,

have you got any photos of the stipules?

That might help.

daygan · 4th June 2011, 10:10 PM

I can get them. - just wait about 15/16 hours and I should be able to have them posted. I'm starting to think I just have some odd genetic freak of a plant ..

jmcg.insight.gardens · 4th June 2011, 10:40 PM

Hi again Daygan,

can you add a photo of a flat leaf against a background

and a photo of a bud as well.

Might as well get it all in one hit.

My origanal thought when I saw the first photos was Theaceae, but then you mentioned stipules. That sent me off to the family Rosaceae. I still keep an open mind.

Lets see what the photos show, might help.

Can't promise to clinch it but I'll give it a go.

daygan · 6th June 2011, 03:09 PM

Stipules:

Stipules & Leaf:

Leaves on branch (note: the groupings of these leaves confuses me a little because they seem to sometimes grow in clusters of four, with stipules in between, as seen in the third photo)

Sorry, I can't find any buds anywhere..

Bowani Siam · 6th June 2011, 04:59 PM

Hi! This looks like an interesting thread so might join in the fun!

- the 'clusters of four' arrangement (seen in last pic) is quite common on spurs (short branches). The main leaf arrangement is alternate with pairs of interpetiolar stipules.

- Apparently, the unusual characteristic of the long peduncle can occur on flowers very late in the season (i.e flowers borne in warm weather as opposed to the main flowering season in winter/spring). I imagine that if you were to observe the peduncles during winter they would be short or absent.

This is an extract from the (albeit old):

JOURNAL
OF THE
ARNOLD ARBORETUM
VOL. XLV APRIL 1964 NUMBER 2
THE GENUS CHAENOMELES (ROSACEAE)
CLAUDE WEBER

Quote:

Inflorescences. Along with the tendency to flower at any time of the year, weather permitting, Chaenomeles presents a great variety of inflorescence types. A few cultivars have been named for their long peduncles, such as C. speciosa ''edunculata'. These pedunculate inflorescences appear on any shrub if heat, light, and humidity are sufficient. They are not a varietal character, but rather a seasonal phase.

Interesting stuff indeed...

Quote:

The long shoot type of inflorescence occurs from late spring to late fall. So far, it has not been possible to predict where and when summer inflorescences are going to appear. At this time, the shrubs are covered with leaves. Summer inflorescences, like sprouts, develop very fast if the temperature is favorable. When they can be recognized, it is too late to find out in what kind of embryonic condition they spent the winter. This can be deduced by their location, often on old wood, even on the main branches, and also by the fact that at this time of the year there are only rudimentary dormant buds. Summer inflorescences, like the long leafy shoots, probably spend the winter in a primordial stage.
The peduncle length appears to be dependent on the temperature, a few degrees change at night probably being enough for change from a spike to a raceme or a panicle. The variation in long shoot type of inflorescence is even more striking, involving the presence or absence of leaves, stipules, bracts, or intermediate organs, as well as the transformation of the sepals into leaves. This type of inflorescence is extremely variable and may be subdivided into four categories.

In any case, I reckon a cultivar of Chaenomeles speciosa is still lookin' good!!!!

jmcg.insight.gardens · 6th June 2011, 08:53 PM

Welcome aboard Very Sarcastic and that article is lovely and just what I needed to clarify things for me. I learnt something today, I did not know that about Chaenomeles, I feel I know a lot more about them after this process.
Thankyou Dangan, great pics!

I have used the key from

www.eFloras ; Flora of China
Chaenomeles in Flora of China @ efloras.org

www.eFloras ; Flora of China
Chaenomeles in Flora of China @ efloras.org

Quote:

21. CHAENOMELES Lindley, Trans. Linn. Soc. London, Bot. 13: 96, 97. 1821.
木瓜属 mu gua shu
Gu Cuizhi (Ku Tsue-chih); Stephen A. Spongberg
Pseudochaenomeles Carrière; Pseudocydonia C. K. Schneider.
Shrubs, subshrubs, or small trees, deciduous or evergreen, sometimes with thorny branches; buds small, with 2 exposed scales. Leaves simple, alternate, shortly petiolate, stipulate, herbaceous, venation camptodromous, margin serrate or crenate. Flowers solitary or fascicled, precocious or coetaneous. Sepals 5, caducous, margin entire or serrate. Petals 5. Stamens 20 or more, 2-whorled. Ovary 5-loculed, with many ovules per locule, 2-seriate; styles 2–5, connate at base. Fruit a pome, large, many seeded, often with persistent incurved styles; seed brown, seed coat leathery, albumen absent.
About five species: E Asia; five species (three endemic) in China.

Quote:

1 Branches unarmed; flowers solitary, coetaneous; sepals reflexed; stipules ovate-lanceolate, margin glandular serrate. 1 C. sinensis

+ Branches armed; flowers fascicled, precocious or coetaneous; sepals erect, rarely reflexed; stipules herbaceous, reniform or auriculate, margin serrate. (2)

2 (1)
Leaf margin entire. 5 C. thibetica

+ Leaf margin serrate or crenate. (3)

3 (2)
Branchlets scabrous, verruculose when old; fruit small, 3–4 cm in diam., maturing early; leaf blade obovate to spatulate, margin crenate. 4 C. japonica

+ Branchlets smooth, not verruculose when old; fruit medium-sized to large, 5–8 cm in diam., maturing late; leaf blade ovate, elliptic, or lanceolate, margin serrate. (4)

4 (3)
Leaf blade ovate to narrowly elliptic, abaxially glabrous or initially slightly pubescent, margin sharply serrate; styles glabrous or slightly pubescent. 2 C. speciosa

+ Leaf blade elliptic or lanceolate, abaxially densely brown tomentose, margin aristate-serrate; styles basally pubescent or lanose. 3 C. cathayensis

Lower Taxa
• Chaenomeles cathayensis (Hemsley) C. K. Schneider
• Chaenomeles japonica (Thunberg) Lindley ex Spach
• Chaenomeles sinensis (Thouin) Koehne
• Chaenomeles speciosa (Sweet) Nakai
• Chaenomeles thibetica T. T. Yu

I come up with Chaenomeles japonica, as it fits the most.

The plant mentioned is thornless, yes, but we do not know if it is naturally that way, so I have worked with that assumption.

I have found a Herbarium speciman of C. japonica, it seems to fit.

see attached, too nice a speciman to reduce in size.

As I learnt from my ID exams, it is usually my first hunch that turns out to be correct, I should listen to it more often.

daygan · 6th June 2011, 10:54 PM

Well, awesome. Thanks, jmcg.insight.gardens and very_sarcastic for the very helpful information. Definitely educational. I think I'll go with the assumption that it's Chaenomeles japonica, as jmcg.insight.gardens suggested, for now, and use that to determine how to care for it. By the way, my plan is to train it as a bonsai..

jmcg.insight.gardens · 7th June 2011, 11:39 PM

I think it will make a nice bonsai Daygan, best of luck with it.

28th May 2011, 12:44 AM	#1
daygan Sappling Join Date: May 2011 Location: many places Posts: 23	maybe Chaenomeles speciosa, maybe Malus halliana, or... I bought a tree in China and the seller told me that it was a "Hai Tang". Since then, I have learned that "Hai Tang" is actually a name that is used in China for at least seven different shrubs/trees, namely Chaenomeles Speciosa, Chaenomeles Sinensis, Chaenomeles Japonica, 'Alba Plena' Camellia Japonica, Malus Halliana, Malus Spectabilis, and Malus Hupehensis. So I need to figure out which one of these it actually is. My thought is that it's most similar to pictures I've found of the Chaenomeles Speciosa (except without thorns) and Malus Halliana (except the flowers are a bit darker). Here are some pictures: Attached Thumbnails

28th May 2011, 12:33 PM	#2
daygan Sappling Join Date: May 2011 Location: many places Posts: 23	Re: maybe Chaenomeles speciosa, maybe Malus halliana, or... I accidentally posted this before I made some edits that I needed to make. It should actually be "at least six different trees/shrubs" - 'Alba Plena' Camellia Japonica, I understand, is actually a type of Malus Spectabilis. .. and here's a picture of a leaf: I'll try to get some more photos soon and post them. If anyone needs any more information or any specific part of the tree photographed, let me know. Thanks!

29th May 2011, 08:41 PM	#3
daygan Sappling Join Date: May 2011 Location: many places Posts: 23	Re: maybe Chaenomeles speciosa, maybe Malus halliana, or... also confusing to me is the fact that the flowers seem to have a great many petals, whereas information about both Malus and Chaenomeles genera that I'm finding is that their flowers have only five petals. So, does anyone have any idea yet, or do you want more pictures?

29th May 2011, 10:12 PM	#4
jmcg.insight.gardens Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Mannering Park, Australia Posts: 623	Re: maybe Chaenomeles speciosa, maybe Malus halliana, or... Hi Daygan there are double flowers in the cultivars of all Genera you mention, which mean they have more petals than the species. No thorns you say? How soft are the leaves? Camelia leaves are not easily crushed, while the leaves of Malus and Chaenomeles are supple and easily crushed. How shiny are the leaves? Camelia leaves are very shiny while Malus and Chaenomeles are not very shiny. It reminds me more of a Chaenomeles because of the shiny bark, which also has double cultivars, but they have thorns, so perhaps a Malus. Do you think that since it has been pruned the thorns might have been removed, you would see some scars on the stem? The leaves look larger than a Chaenomeles would normally be, but photos can be deceptive. Some thoughts for you to ponder. Julie Last edited by jmcg.insight.gardens; 29th May 2011 at 10:17 PM.

30th May 2011, 01:55 PM	#5
daygan Sappling Join Date: May 2011 Location: many places Posts: 23	Re: maybe Chaenomeles speciosa, maybe Malus halliana, or... jmcg.insight.gardens: Thanks for your reply! To answer your questions: The flowers are soft and easily crushed (like Malus and Chaenomeles) The leaves don't seem shiny to me (like Malus and Chaenomeles) The bark is actually not so shiny - the picture I uploaded was one taken right after I had misted it. Here are two pictures of the bark when it's dry: I don't see any scars where thorns might have been pruned away, although I have found advertisements of Chaenomeles which do not have thorns. The leaves are about two inches (6.5 cm) at their largest (not including stem). Looking forward to your insights! Attached Thumbnails

30th May 2011, 09:54 PM	#6
jmcg.insight.gardens Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Mannering Park, Australia Posts: 623	Re: maybe Chaenomeles speciosa, maybe Malus halliana, or... Hi Daygan It would help me if I could have a picture of where the flower joins the stem. A clear shot of the calyx would help clarify things and the length of the stalk. I am leaning to Chaenomeles due to the flower at the moment, but I cannot be certain until I see a clear shot of this part of the plant. Please look at these links, it might help to get a picture that shows what I need clearly. Image standards for woody angiosperms Attached Thumbnails

31st May 2011, 12:39 AM	#7
daygan Sappling Join Date: May 2011 Location: many places Posts: 23	Re: maybe Chaenomeles speciosa, maybe Malus halliana, or... Okay, I think I've almost figured it out. I found information on the stipules of Chaenomeles Speciosa, Chaenomeles Sinensis, Chaenomeles Japonica, Malus Halliana, Malus Spectabilis, and Malus Hupehensis. All of the Malus' have lanceolate stipules, and the Chaenomeles' have reniform, ovate-oblong, rhomboidal, suborbicular, ovate, or lanceolate stipules. My plant's stipules are definitely not lanceolate, so that rules our and of the Malus species. They are more reniform, usually, which also rules out Chaenomeles Sinensis, which, from what I've found, has longer, almost lanceolate stipules. So I think that leaves Chaenomeles Specios or Chaenomeles Japonica.. but I'll see what jmcg.insight.gardens has to say after seeing the flower pictures. Sorry, there's only one flower left and it's not in very good condition: Attached Thumbnails

31st May 2011, 11:38 PM	#8
jmcg.insight.gardens Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Mannering Park, Australia Posts: 623	Re: maybe Chaenomeles speciosa, maybe Malus halliana, or... Hi Daygan as I thought, the peduncle is too long for Chaenomeles, have a look at the picture I posted. It does not look like Malus to me either, but I could be wrong. I am not familiar with your Flora. I will need to refer to my books, I will post as soon as I come up with something. You say it has stipules, that is helpful. You have so many species in your country, many beautiful.

1st June 2011, 12:05 AM	#9
daygan Sappling Join Date: May 2011 Location: many places Posts: 23	Re: maybe Chaenomeles speciosa, maybe Malus halliana, or... Interesting story about that peduncle there: I didn't even know it was there until a few weeks ago. Evidently part of the tree had been covered by dirt in it's pot, and the only thing that tipped me off to the fact that something more might be under there was this flower bud that popped out of the dirt a few weeks ago. By the way, China's not really my country - I'm from America. But, yes, they do have some cool flora here. Anyway, I'll be waiting for your thoughts, jmcg.insight.gardens! Attached Thumbnails

1st June 2011, 09:28 PM	#10
jmcg.insight.gardens Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Mannering Park, Australia Posts: 623	Re: maybe Chaenomeles speciosa, maybe Malus halliana, or... Hi Daygan, The name sounded Chinese, oops, shouldn't have presumed. I'll get onto those books soon. Interesting story and a curiosity of a plant.

4th June 2011, 01:45 PM	#12
daygan Sappling Join Date: May 2011 Location: many places Posts: 23	Re: maybe Chaenomeles speciosa, maybe Malus halliana, or... okay. yeah, the description in the guide is probably the closest to what I have .. but what about the fact that Malus Spectabilus' stipules are "narrowly lanceolate", and caducous while this tree's are definitely reniform.. and don't seem to be falling off at all... ??

4th June 2011, 09:55 PM	#13
jmcg.insight.gardens Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Mannering Park, Australia Posts: 623	Re: maybe Chaenomeles speciosa, maybe Malus halliana, or... hi Daygan, have you got any photos of the stipules? That might help.

4th June 2011, 10:10 PM	#14
daygan Sappling Join Date: May 2011 Location: many places Posts: 23	Re: maybe Chaenomeles speciosa, maybe Malus halliana, or... I can get them. - just wait about 15/16 hours and I should be able to have them posted. I'm starting to think I just have some odd genetic freak of a plant ..

4th June 2011, 10:40 PM	#15
jmcg.insight.gardens Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Mannering Park, Australia Posts: 623	Re: maybe Chaenomeles speciosa, maybe Malus halliana, or... Hi again Daygan, can you add a photo of a flat leaf against a background and a photo of a bud as well. Might as well get it all in one hit. My origanal thought when I saw the first photos was Theaceae, but then you mentioned stipules. That sent me off to the family Rosaceae. I still keep an open mind. Lets see what the photos show, might help. Can't promise to clinch it but I'll give it a go.

6th June 2011, 03:09 PM	#16
daygan Sappling Join Date: May 2011 Location: many places Posts: 23	Re: maybe Chaenomeles speciosa, maybe Malus halliana, or... Stipules: Stipules & Leaf: Leaves on branch (note: the groupings of these leaves confuses me a little because they seem to sometimes grow in clusters of four, with stipules in between, as seen in the third photo) Sorry, I can't find any buds anywhere.. Attached Thumbnails

6th June 2011, 10:54 PM	#19
daygan Sappling Join Date: May 2011 Location: many places Posts: 23	Re: maybe Chaenomeles speciosa, maybe Malus halliana, or... Well, awesome. Thanks, jmcg.insight.gardens and very_sarcastic for the very helpful information. Definitely educational. I think I'll go with the assumption that it's Chaenomeles japonica, as jmcg.insight.gardens suggested, for now, and use that to determine how to care for it. By the way, my plan is to train it as a bonsai..

7th June 2011, 11:39 PM	#20
jmcg.insight.gardens Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Mannering Park, Australia Posts: 623	Re: maybe Chaenomeles speciosa, maybe Malus halliana, or... I think it will make a nice bonsai Daygan, best of luck with it.

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