Help Me With A Seed

SeedDetective

My six-year old son found the following seed-like thing on the ground near a park in North Texas. We have spent the day looking up seeds of trees that grow in North Texas on the Internet, but have not found anything that looks quite like this.

I am downloading the families.zip database to look in there, but in the meantime here is what my son would like to say:

"Here are pictures of my seed. What's inside it? What plant did it come from? What shape is the thing inside it?"

We are going to do our best to figure out what SHOULD be inside the nut/seed case before we crack it open to check whether we were right or not.

Any help would be appreciated!

The seed-case itself is hard and wrinkly looking on the outside, and sort of a light chocolate color. When you shake it there, is definitely a single hard object rattling around inside.

Pictures:






Thanks!

Attached Thumbnails

     

Ekka

Reminds me of passion fruit

Open it up.

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Bernard Keays

SeedDetective,

Do hickory (Carya spp) trees grow in your area?

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Bernie

jmcg.insight.gardens

reminds me of a dried up Chinaberry seed (Melia azederach), but I could be wrong.

If it is the following link might help.





regards Julie

Attached Files

Melia azederach.pdf (155.6 KB, 9 views)

SeedDetective

Thanks for the responses! I'm at work, and will respond tonight so my son can be part of the process.

SeedDetective

Ekka wrote:
Thanks, Ekka! We will definitely open it up, but later (says my son).

We looked up the passion fruit, and found several pictures showing the fruit cut open to expose the seeds. My son says the inside of the passion fruit looks "yucky". We both agree that the single nut/seed knocking around inside this seed casing doesn't seem to match the groups of stringy seeds that we see on the inside of the passion fruit. My son says the passion fruit seeds look "rubbery", not hard. Plus, we both think that the outside of this seed case is too hard to be just a dried fruit skin. It is a lot more like a walnut, and seems to be thick and sturdy.


Bernard Keays wrote:Thanks, Mr. Keays!

We looked up the Hickory (Carya spp) and found that it indeed DOES grow in North Texas! We then looked at this NEAT WEB PAGE about that particular tree and its nuts.

We found that the description of the nuts for the four different varieties listed them all as smooth on the outside (like a pecan), while ours is wrinkly in appearance. Here is a picture they have on that page of the nuts:



So, we don't think that is our nut/seed. But we greatly appreciate your guess. Now we know about the Carya Hickory!


jmcg.insight.gardens wrote:

Thanks, jmcg!

We carefully looked at the pictures of the seeds in the document you sent, and read their description. The outside of our seed thingy is about 3.5 cm long from end to end. The description of the Chinaberry fruit says it's 2-4 cm long. So that works! However, the outside of our seed thingy is very thick and hard, and seems a lot more like the outside of a walnut rather than a dried fruit skin. Also, we cannot really imagine the Chinaberry seeds from the images drying up to look like what we have.

So thanks for the help, we now know about Chinaberries!

But, we still do not know what this seed/nut could be.

Bernard Keays

SeedDetective,

I'm a bit stumped... However what you've described sounds like a dry drupe. Could it be an almond (Prunus dulcis)?

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Bernie

jmcg.insight.gardens

Seeddetective'

I've always loved a mystery,

Nature brings us many fascinating things.

First we need to understand that some plant fruits that we commonly call nuts are often false nuts, or in botanical terms are a drupe.......

Many of these drupes coverings are really quite hard when they dry. Did you know that the Pistachio "nut" "( Pistacia vera) is a drupe? A coconut is a drupe.....

Perhaps a little Botany lesson will help. This link is simple and short.

http://tiny.cc/ybKFU

Now ever since man has walked this earth he has wanted to look nice.............. and before they invented all the cool stuff they have now,...... they used nuts and seeds. In some places they still do.

Perhaps if you look at the following link you will find your seed/nut there. There is also some interesting things people did with nuts and seeds, the American Indians used them a lot. Some of the uses are quite funny. Some seeds are quite fascinating and some are carved by people in China.

Look at number 28...Sapindus saponaria and number 41...Melia azederach, maybe these photos might help you more. These are the only ones I know of that look like that.

http://tiny.cc/PQ49W

Other than that you could cut the fruit and have a look at what is inside. Perhaps one of the seeds is in the list.

I hope this helps.

Julie

SeedDetective

Thanks, Julie! I have to work late tonight and so I won't get home to work with my boy on your suggestions until tomorrow night.

P.S. He will be happy to see that your name is Julie, he was having a bit of an issue writing your screen name in his research journal!

SeedDetective

Hi again, Bernard.

First of all, you may be right as far as it being a dry drupe. We looked up dry drupes and think that the outside texture and appearance is consistent with the outer appearance of some of the drupes we've seen.

As far as it being an almond, there are two reasons we offer against it. First, our seed package is definitely right off a tree or bush as evidenced by its stem mark on one end. All the almonds attached to a tree that we see have a definite crease along at least one side, almost as if they are two halves sewn together. There is no hint of that kind of thing on our seed package.

Second, it looks like the inside part of the almond that actually holds the nut seems pretty small, so that the nut would likely not have much room to move. In contrast, whatever is rattling around inside our seed casing feels like it has free reign to move anywhere inside the outer covering, like there is no further shell inside to hold the seed/nut.

But we greatly appreciate the help and things to look up! My son is allergic to almonds, and he doesn't want it to be an almond, so we hope we haven't introduced bias into our research.

Hi, Julie.

We think you have helped us solve it! You pointed out #28 on that list, which is a soapberry tree. We poked around and found a good image of what some call a soapnut, which looks like this:



So far, that is the best approximation of what we hold in our hands.

So... we have decided to open up the seed tomorrow. We predict that inside will be a large, round, black nut-like object, just like in the image above.

We will post pictures of our findings in this thread when we do the deed.

Thanks to all for all your help!

jmcg.insight.gardens

I love a good detective story.

Julie

SeedDetective

Well, I don't know if the mystery is solved or not, but here is what we found.

First, we took a final picture of the whole seed package before we performed surgery. My son held a kiwi in his hand next to the seed for size perspective.



Then, instead of cracking it open with a nutcracker or hammer, we decided to try and keep the seed and case somewhat intact, and so used a knife. The outer portion of the seed case which was smooth and wrinkly flaked off when it was cut, revealing a softer, fibrous outer covering below the surface.



So when we finally got the seed casing open, this is what we found inside!



Hmm.... we were expecting to see a solid, smooth, glossy black nut like in the soapberry pictures. However, our nut is not smooth, it is textured. It is also not black, it is a light brown in color.



So, we are not sure if the picture of the soapberry nut we posted in our last message is what all soapberry nuts look like, or if that was an old one, or what. We did notice that the inside of the seed casing was smooth, just like the soapberry pictures.

I suppose we await the verdict of the jury: Is this a soapberry nut, or something else?



Whatever the case, thanks to all who helped us get to this point!

P.S. My son likes this smiley, so we are including it. He does not know or care what beverage is in the glass.

Bernard Keays

SeedDetective,

I'm still stumped... However I don't think I was too far off with almond (Prunus dulcis). I have never seen a soapberry tree (Sapindus saponaria) before. The fruit reminds me of a dried up plum (prune). Could it be an English plum (Prunus domestica) or Japanese plum (Prunus salicina)?

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Bernie

jmcg.insight.gardens

Well I'm stumped as well at the moment. It does not appear the same as the seed shown in the pictures, it looks as if it's mature.

So when I get a chance I'll do some more checking, I have a lot on at the moment. There are a few more books I can check when I get a chance.

If I come up with anything I'll post.

Julie

SeedDetective

Hi again, Bernard.

No, as pessimistic as I initially was, now that we have seen the inside I don't think you were far off at all with your almond-thinking.

The nut inside definitely has the feel, weight, and texture of an almond-type nut.

Regarding your plum suggestions, I only have experience with the typical red plums they sell in the U.S., but I would have a hard time imagining this nut being any kind of evolution of the pit of one of those plums, which in my experience are incredibly hard and unyielding.

This nut feels in weight and hardness about equal in consistency with something like an almond or hazelnut. I'm sure I could pop it in my mouth and chew it up easily, although it smells a little stale and unappetizing.

Are the pits of the other plum varieties you shared softer and more nut-like?

Maybe we will cut the nut in half just to show what the inside of that looks like.

Thanks, Julie.

My son and I have about exhausted our detective efforts. We will keep our eyes open, and will watch this space for any suggestions for anyone. We will follow up on any promising leads.

We will also cut the seed in half and post pictures of that in this space.

JayD

When all leads fail return to the scene of the crime..for missed evidence, in this case was there more than one seed to found under this treee..maybee some photos of the tree can clear up this mystery....food for thought!

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SeedDetective

Hiya, JayD! Thanks for the input.

Unfortunately, the SeedDetective does not remember which park (of the many he visits) he picked up the seed from. He does lots of nature walks with Mommy and this specimen sat for a few weeks before we decided to research it.

So we have to consider this a cold case!

TO BERNARD:

I owe you an apology and need to smack myself. Thank goodness I didn't actually pop the "nut" into my mouth and start chomping, I would have been needing some serious dental work.

While the pit felt like an edible nut, and while I was convinced it was roommates with the almond, when I attempted to cut it open I realized the folly of my ways.

The thing is hard as a rock, and the Cutco pocketknife I used to open the drupe outer shell barely scratched the pit-like seed.

So, I'm leaning more and more toward it being a dried-up fruit. You smart people are providing us with quite an education!

jmcg.insight.gardens

Bernard

I've been thinking, Seeddetective says he doesn't know what tree it comes from.

The image of the seed being cut reminded me of a cycad seed.

Makes sense that it might not be a tree at all but a cycad or a monocot such as a palm?....

What do you think? I Googled up some images, it could fit.

Bernard Keays

I thought of a date palm when I first saw it but I hadn't considered a cyad. Could it be sago palm (cycas revoluta)?

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Bernie

jmcg.insight.gardens

Bernard

That,s what I was thinking but can't find any image or size description of the actual seed. The encased seed measurement is correct at 3.5cm. Fits the description of the 'nut' as well. Light, hard etc.

Found this image though, makes sense as this is a commonly used park specimen.

http://www.sbs.auckland.ac.nz/uoa/sc...ups/cycads.cfm

regards Julie

SeedDetective

Mystery solved! And thanks to Bernard and Julie for their invaluable help.

It is... <drumroll>

A Sago Palm seed!



For whatever reason, I didn't attempt to lookup sago palm seeds after the last posts. I just scanned down the images provided and didn't see anything that looked like our seed.

However, today our son was at our local nature exchange (place where kids can trade stuff they find out in nature for other stuff turned in by other kids), and he saw the exact same seed! Except this one was labeled 'Sago Palm seed'.

When he told me about it, I looked online for the seed and found enough pictures that I'm convinced that is the correct identification. And of course, if you look up a bit, you'll see Bernard and Julie guess it.

Thanks to all who helped! It has been a great experience!