Desperate to ID New Jersey Shore USA

Baloni

Hello.
My grandfather planted these trees probably 20 years ago here at the jersey shore in the US. I think they are not native, possibly Japanese. I do not know anything about them I cannot find a darned thing that looks close. We live about 100 yards from the beach - so not a direct spray but much salt in the air and sand. It got to sub zero temperatures this year. They survived that and 3 feet of snow.... I want to prune them back but I don't want to kill them. very sentimental.

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Jeffrey Lovstrom

Thuja.
Jeff

Brent Ferris

I agree with Jeff. They are a variety of Thuja or cedar. Trimming is seldom a problem as long as 30% or less is removed at a time. More can be done, but a lot of deadwood usually results. Drastic cutting can kill the tree. The top responds best to regrowth. Try to leave some visible foliage when trimming the sides.

Eastern White Cedar will attain heights of 60-80 ft, some of the other varieties can be more columnar and shorter or taller. If you hope to trim these short to be able to use your windows, it will be an ongoing love affair - trimming 1-3x per year. It may be possible to let the cedars grow tall, and trim "windows" in the foliage to let light into the house, or let people peer out. Long term project.

Baloni

Does it matter what time of year I trim them? I'm more interested in getting them a little thinner as they are growing into the street. I am fine with only trimming out some areas through the window. I'm sure that my grandfather tended to them regularly until about 2004 when he died. I'm sure they really haven't been touched since then. Ive never trimmed trees before, but I do garden. I see the new branches are starting to reach out - should I leave those? Thanks.

Jeffrey Lovstrom

Maybe it's just me, but I would leave them alone until you feel you have to do something. Pruning invigorates growth, they may well be suited for a "crown clean".
Jeff

Brent Ferris

Jeff - what do you mean by a crown clean. I have never heard that term.

Brent Ferris

Many people have their own opinion about pruning.
I have found almost any time of the year is ok with Cedars, as long as it is not during a drought, and the pruning is not done within 6 weeks of fall frost. If you are going to water the trees through the summer, droughty conditions are probably unlikely.
I favour trimming the branches back to about 1/4" beyond a fork (towards the outside) leaving some foliage on the branch. I would rather have an uneven result -- varying by 1 to 3 inches (vertically) -- known as a natural cut, than the sheared effect. Shearing has a formal look to it, but as soon as it grows back, the new growth looks out of place. Additionally, the natural cut assures there is foliage present at or near the end of the branch, because it is cut that way. Shearing just cuts, and whether foliage remains or not is irrelevant.

It is a personal choice - natural or sheared.

I recommend trying to find out the variety of Cedar and see if they are salt tolerant. Native cedars are not bothered much by cold - at least to -40 or a bit more, snow usually slides off the branches, freezing rain causes the most havoc or wet sticky snow that freezes. But cedars (that I know of) don't normally tolerate salty soils, or salty air.

Jeffrey Lovstrom

Ah, so you are not an arborist?
Jeff

Brent Ferris

Actually i am both a forester and an arborist, but my formal schooling was some time ago, and I have not come across the term "crown clean." I was wondering if you were willing to elaborate.

dov

I must admit that I always though of 'cleaning' as something you do to Palms when you can't convince the customer to cut them down...

Brent Ferris

Dov I have heard that palms will grow in Toronto. Haven't seen one yet. And after reading the various posts about climbing, and trimming and all, I hope people don't get the idea it would be fashionable to grow them.

Thanks for the explanation Dov.

dov

Like in a palm, it seems jeffswede means removing dead material, ie. dead wooding. Crown cleaning is a bloody stupid term to use for it though. Makes no sense to fill the customers mind with visions of soapy buckets of water on ropes...

Brent Ferris

Dov lol --That would be a sight

sueann

I wasn't sure, exactly, what the crown was on a tree, but rather than guess, I looked it up on this site. Like, I wasn't sure where it would start exactly. I have cleaned my hibiscus leaves with soapy water though, when there's bugs on them.

Tree crown

Brent Ferris

Sueann - nice site, but WOW, that is complicated.

A tree's crown is the leafy part. So, wherever the branches (with leaves) start to the top of the tree is the crown.

Washing your is a great idea.

But imagine carrying those buckets of soapy water 25-30 feet in the air, to wash down a scale infestation. Or maybe to 75-90 feet to get rid of aphids. It is doable - but can't say I want to be part of it, unless the shower isn't working at home.

Eric Frei

Whilst terminology does vary common sense for any arborist should prevail if you were requested to do a "crown clean".

In AS4373 (P6) it is sort of briefly discussed and called crown maintenance.

And from Page 13

Crown cleaning utilizes a combination of many techniques, such as reduction pruning, thinning etc to basically clear the crown of DDD (dead, dying, dysfunctional) material. Whilst there though you should also pay attention to formative pruning so if you see an issue coming like 2 branches going to rub or interfere then deal with it.

Over here though often we will stipulate each type of pruning, like this as asking for a "crown clean" can be a little vague and subjective.

1. Deadwood down to 50mm dia.
2. Reduction prune 2 lower west limbs to prevent interference with house and provide 0.5m minimum clearance to house wall.
3. Crown lift northern side to 2.5m minimum clearance above foootpath for pedestrian access.
4. Crown thin eastern side 25% so additional light can filter through to paved courtyard.
5. Remove passionfruit vine from lower crown and trunk.

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sueann

That was ages ago I looked that up, I don't want to trim my trees, I'll get an abour guy to do that, most of the eucs and silky oaks and wattles are way too tall anyway, for me, but I just want to know what different things mean.

I'm also trying to stay as green as I can so I try not to use poisons, I hardly ever do really.

Brent Ferris

Hi Sueann Glad to hear you stay away from poisons. One more victory for the planet.

And this forum is a good place to find out what things mean - there is an overabundance of technical terms - for trees and plants alone, without even delving into other sciences.

I know I said A tree's crown is the leafy part. So, wherever the branches (with leaves) start to the top of the tree is the crown. -- strictly speaking, this is the live crown; the crown of a tree is the whole volume encompassed by the branches, whether live or dead. If I accessed an old post, I do apologize - sometimes not thinking quite right at 0200 to 0300. And I want to thank for the kind comments you made about me a week or so ago. I forgot to acknowledge them - an oversight on my part.

Brent Ferris

Hi Ekka

thanks for posting info on crown cleaning

I am familiar with the requirements, but I had never heard the term. Thanks for caring.

Brent Ferris

Ekka, I noticed someone posted a request for a bid on land clearing, and I guess you felt it was a waste of time -- since he wanted an idea on cost,and had to save the money. But if you allowed for inflation and 2-3 years lead time, couldn't you have made money with a ballpark estimate of $5000-$10000? Who knows -- you might be a low bidder.

Jeffrey Lovstrom

Well, I knew Ekka would weigh in. In the USA, we go for ISA and ANSI, these are terms we use. Crown thin, Crown clean , Crown raise, Crown reduce, Crown restoration, and not used with a broad brush. Of course there is a description of the work, but I did not know that the term "crown clean", would be so much heat. Is it an ISA thing?
Jeff

dov

I though it was a waste of time too - and foolish to answer with an estimate. No idea of crown size of plants etc. How much waste? Any power or comms going through? Stumps? The list goes on. The only thing anyone could do is lead them astray with probably quite an inaccurate figure.

Eric Frei

I get emails from people, people I have never met or known, send me pictures of a tree or palm .... how much to cut this down and stump grind?

If that guy was worried about wasting peoples time then he should pay for their time, not waste time elsewhere (like here).

Worse than pictures is some lame assed description. What next, this is gonna be the Oz Craig list for time wasters .... come cut the trees down for the wood etc? I'm not going to let this site degrade to that and will shut down threads and requests like that.

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Brent Ferris

Fair enough Ekka - I usually ignore requests like that as well, or quote an outlandish number, like under $100,000 or tell them to pay to have an estimate given. Almost no one wants to pay, and the number scares away fishers.

The suggestion was meant as tongue-in-cheek.

Baloni

Well only one person really answered my question and then you all shot off about crown cleaning. Not so much help. These are NOT Cedars. I can say that. While I'm inclined to agree that they are Thuja based on my research, they really don't resemble a Thuja in anyway other than the patterns of the needles/leaves..... Mine are very curvy and sprial-like with long arms. I HAVE TO CUT THEM in some way. I don't have a choice, so you know - while, thanks for the advice about leaving them alone - they are impeding both my neighbors driveway and the road.

I have no idea who told my grandfather they were a good idea for where they are, but I'm not interested in ripping them out at this point (I don't even know that I could without taking the house with them). But you all must realize, this is TWENTY YEARS OF GROWTH. This took twenty years... they were most likely not trimmed prior....

I live 100 yards from the ocean, so they are taking salt without problem. If anyone has any input on what variation they could be, I agree that I will probably do my own little crown cleaning at the end of the summer - its 102 degrees here right now - I have to cut my branches back for my neighbors at least - should I chop a little more than I planned to make up for the growth? Is it possible this isn't Thuja but a close relative? I just want my questions answered by people who know whats up.... THANKS.

Brent Ferris

Ok, there is a possibility it is a juniper (lots of varieties) or a cedar - but the variety is tough to nail down. Better pics might help, and if you have any pics of fruit - this year or last, that would help too. (cones are cedars, berries are junipers)

You say they are not cedars, but tree foliage is usually fairly specific. So if they are Thuja species (ie cedars) they may not be Eastern White Cedar - Thuja occidentalis, but another species or a variety tolerant of salt.
Wherever the trees came from, they were apparently a good choice, or they likely would have died a long time ago -- and they appear healthy in the pic.
You can trim them at this time of year, but they need a good supply of water. THey may be salt tolerant or only partly. THey may have grown only a tiny bit because of the high concentration of salt.
If you can determine the shoot tip growth (the amount the shoots grow yearly) that can aid identification since some species naturally grow faster or slower, and really slow growth indicates problems like salt accumulation. Each year of growth will have a slightly thicker diameter than the succeeding one, and if you can track back 5 to 10 years and note the growth per year, it gives more info to consider...
Please remember you can see the trees and surroundings, we are only going with pics.

Hope this is helpful.

Brent Ferris

Looking at the first pic again, you can trim them short, -- below the windows if you choose, and the sides and front - make them into a hedge if you choose. Trimming them too much leads to dieback. As I mentioned earlier, 30% or less in one year is the norm, more removal is more risky. THey need a supply of water if the temps are that high, but Juniper withstands drought better than Cedar. I know you want them identified, but need better pics of foliage, and fruit, and preferably some scale - like a quarter (coin) or a ruler.

Baloni

Thanks for your reply. I have determined that these are Thuja Occidentalis, Spiralis. (Photographs online look identical when googled) They may be a dwarf variety (if that exists)

You kept saying Cedar which is where you were losing me - I see now that further research reads:
"Thujas; several species are widely known as cedar but because they are not true cedars (Cedrus) it has been recommended to call them redcedars or whitecedars". ... So I get it now.

The other thing is I can say with 100% certainty. that they have not been watered by anything other than rain in 10+ years. My dad never trimmed them, never watered them. (so I don't want to shock the hell out of them with all this sudden attention).

I have never noticed a cone unless it happens between October and December (that's the only time I've never seen them). I see from pictures these 'cones' are very tiny, that might be why I never saw them...

The shoot tip growth you speak of appears to be happening right now, I will take some more detailed pictures with my camera this afternoon, rather than my iphone. I agree that they are very healthy, which is part of the reason I'm not trying to 'over-care' for them. I really want to clean out the bottom of all the dead stuff too, which I feel is from the heavy wet snow that sat on the dead parts for weeks (I literally would clean the heavy snow from the branches as it came down so they didnt snap) - but there are some really nasty black jumping spiders living in there. Another thing is I heard if they touch my house (see the windows) that's how I'm getting insects inside - is this true?

Thank you. I'm a no-nothing when it comes to trees, surprised that I can even grow vegetables, that's why I'm here. (I have a major juniper issue in my back yard as well that I would love advice on- I will take GOOD pictures for another thread.)

Brent Ferris

Sorry about the confusion - one of the problems of using common names vs latin names, and cedrus is not particularly common in my area. I can appreciate you saying you have thuja, but as an aside, Cedrus atlantica 'glaua' for example is tolerant of salt spray while the Thuja occidentalis species and variations normally dieback when exposed to salt spray. And the foliage in your pics seemed to be Thuja -- or as some people call it - arborvitae.

THuja has small cones, usually less than 1/2 inch long - tiny, and often near the top of the tree. The shoot tip growth for this year, will be happening now, but it happens every spring. If you can determine the amount of growth every spring, one can judge if the tree is holding its own, growing faster, or slowing down.

I did not find any info suggesting Thuja occidentalis var spiralis is salt tolerant, nor especially drought tolerant. But trees have survived for millennia without us. It is only reasonable they can carry on in our presence - even recently developed varieties.

Your dad may never have trimmed them because they did not need trimming, or he did so little, it was not noticeable. An idea of how well the trees are growing allows advice as to how well they are likely to tolerate trimming. Normally, thuja species tolerate modest to moderate trimming quite well, and heavy trimming (more than 30% removal -- poorly). Dead stuff can be removed anytime. There will likely be a lot of deadwood, or branchlets that look dead inside the foliage - because of a lack of light. THis is normal. Removing it can make you feel better; removing obviously dead limbs near the ground improves the aesthetics of the tree, and may minimize fungal/mold growth.

there are some really nasty black jumping spiders living in there. Another thing is I heard if they touch my house (see the windows) that's how I'm getting insects inside - is this true? Spiders normally live where is a food supply. Jumping spiders implies flying insects where jumping is an advantage to catching the meal. Any insect (or spiders) can enter a building, but there has to be an opening for them. Aluminum windows often have such gaps to allow for temperature fluctuations and moisture drainage. There are often gaps around the doors, and the siding. By the time you seal all the gaps to keep insects out, you have also sealed the house from air exchange. A few insects is a small price to pay for air exchange and your health.