Will dolkita survive another few years?

KiwiBro

Or will Makita phase out Dolmar and push Makita saws only?
I wonder how well Makita branded variants of the Dolmar saws have sold in comparison to Dolmar.
What's the dealer network and reach like in USA for Makita compared to Dolmar?
I can understand the logic behind keeping the brands separate for now but at what point, if any, does that seem pointless?

Not trying to start a brand war, just musing.

Cut4fun

IMO it would be like asking why is there Husqvarna and Jonsered today

KiwiBro

OK, why is there Husqvarna and Jonsered today ?

Aren't some of the models identical? If so, why the overlap and is there any difference in price between brands hawking any identical models? If so, is there any difference, such as competency of the dealer/service network or warranties or something else entirely, that could rationally, objectively explain the differences?

hddnis

Makita has the engineering and features to be a big player. The only thing that might hurt them at this point is pointless enviro regs. I really don't see a company that big with that much R&D just packing up and quitting the game.

Here is the US they need to get a distributor network that gives a hoot about market share. Here in the PNW they really don't do anything to market and barely have any dealers.

Only time will tell.



Mr. HE

windthrown

In this area (as well as the greater US) Makita would be well served to drop the Dolmar name. Several reasons: Makita is far more respected and known, Dolmar is little known if at all, Dolmar has a history of leaving the US (cold). Also the existing Dolmar distribution network in the states is very lopsided; some are good, some suck eggs.

Will it happen? Doubt it. Makita/Dolmar has several existing contracts for regional distribution agreements in the US. They (Dolmar) seems to be pretty poor and inept at marketing in the US. Support through the existing distributors is a joke in many regions of the US, and it certainly is here in the PNW. The distributor is a few miles from where I live, but you would not know that Dolmar even exists here, nor are any of their better saws for sale anywhere around here. No ads, no dealer support, no anything. I looked into becoming a Dolmar dealer a few years ago, and they wanted a prime location, they wanted me to carry a large inventory, and they wanted me to be able to work on their saws. For less money I could have just bought an established Husky/Stihl shop in the same area, So why waste my money and time and effort on a no-name brand, when I could get the top two brands in saws? I also know some shops that carried their line in this and other states, and when I talked to them about it, they had nothing but problems with the saws (mainly the 5100s) and getting approval to do warantee work on them. They (the dealers) also had problems with support from the distributor, problems getting parts, and problem getting saws for inventory.

Dolmar also has a problem with their web site regarding facts and numbers (I have notified them of several things that they have corrected). They also have a serious problem with dealership locations on their web site. They list about 8 dealers in the greater Portland/Vancouver area. Last I called them all, 4 had nothing to do with Dolmar any more, 2 have the Dolmar name only (no saws in stock, just a rental shop or lawn mower shop that can order saws) and 2 have a few Dolmars in stock, but they are the baby saws. No 350, 420, 5100s or 7900 saws were available from any of them, and the one that tried to order me a 5100s said that they were back-ordered at the distributor and they could not get any. The only real option of getting one of the better Dolmar saws here was through the back door of a dealership back east. Said practice is not allowed by Dolmar (direct internet sales), so I will not mention the dealer(s) by name.

The PNW regional dealers that have talked to me about it and some dealers that have posted about it on other forums say the the PWN distributor is to blame. They (Magneto Power in Tualatin, OR) have several large product lines, and seemingly Dolmar is low on their list. I have talked to the local Magneto distributor personally and I asked him about it, and he basically said he was not interested in talking about it. So Dolmar here in the PNW is a big yawner at best. They may as well not exist. I have only seen Dolmars at chainsaw GTGs. Oh, and there are a few Makita/Dolmar 6401s sitting at Home Depot that can be rented. I have seen none in the woods, none on job sites, none in logging camps in the west, none being used by arborists. Zero. I'd say that the distribution of saws here is about 60/40 Stihl to Husky. And a few Echos here and there (mainly TH saws being used by Mexican tree crews).

windthrown

Husky owns a whole line of saw brands. Husqvarna, Poulan, Jonsered, and even the MAC name, as well as others. Some are more duplicated in the lines than others. Like Chevy and Pontiac was. Is it a Firebird or Camero?

KiwiBro

I can't see the merit in running two brands, one of which is not a recognised chainsaw player and the other with poor distribution. Unless it's only for a limited time (until Makita can get their distributorship ducks in a row - buy time until the existing agreements expire) and the time is used to bring the market perception around to the fact that Makita makes good chainsaws (hey, they are Dolmars after all).

This is why I see so much duplication from Makita in all their DCS models; they are doing their best to seek acceptance and gain credibility as a decent chainsaw option. When the time comes, and they decide the regional distributorship of Dolmar is not strong enough, then they will either downgrade Dolmar saws to predominantly home owner saws, or drop Dolmar and hope the market (agents/dealers/buyers) accepts Makita as a 'professional' replacement.

I wonder if a Dolmar dealer would consider that a better or worse scenario? On one hand, they may get better support from Makita than they are used to, but on the other hand their customers might not want a brand that doesn't scream "I'm a pro".

I can almost understand any Dolmar distributor not wanting to put huge resources into building the brand and support/distribution/dealership network if they are in the slightest bit unsure what Makita will do next time the Dolmar distributorship agreements come up for renewal.

Of course, I could be way off the mark, but I always thought Makita tried to position themselves at the 'pro' level of equipment (like B&D have done with De Walt) so I can't see Makita being all that happy about selling home-owner saws only, thus I can't see how they can avoid cannibalising Dolmar sales in regions where it isn't terribly robust, and it seems like a costly exercise trying to build the Dolmar brand up in those areas when they already have Makita?.

windthrown

Good analysis.

I have heard that Kawasaki is intending on getting into the global chainsaw market. Talk about a company that knows about 2 stroke technology. And has a brand name.

You may be right about the Makita shift of the 'DCS' to Makita brand. That would also explain why they are not pushing the Dolmar sales channels through the current distributors (they must be aware of the crappy regional distributor situation, and/or have no control over them). Note that there is a difference in Makita and Dolmar sales in the US: Makita allows for direct catalog and internet sales of the Makita DCS saws, as well as big box store sales of the Makita brand. There is no dealer or reigional sales protection like Stihl, Husky or Dolmar have in place. Husky flipped to this position recently (no internet sales) but they still allow big box sales of their smaller to mid-range saws. Stihl is and always has been dealer sales only.

KiwiBro

That's odd. Makita must deem regional competition OK, and must have a nationwide guarantee? The trouble with internet sales is there are no regional boundaries, yet Makita don't offer a global guarantee.

It took a few attempts to get a straight answer from Baileys whether they would sell and ship a 6401 to NZ. First there was a yes, then a no, then a "yes but there is no NZ guarantee for it". By that stage I had already decided against purchasing that model anyway, but I guess I can see why Husqvarna don't allow internet sales if they are trying to protect their regional distributors.

What would be the main problems with a global sales and guarantee perspective, allowing internet sales to anyone, anywhere? Does a chainsaw brand need a strong dealer network in this day and age? Why not just focus on getting a strong service network (pay people well to repair the saws, and perhaps more, competent servicing reps will spring up around every region)? From what I can see, those who are really looking for great quality saws are prepared to do a little research and as such, may not need their hands held by a bricks and mortar store/dealer, provided the service network was good. And those that just want a brand name saw they perceive as good quality will just go buy a husky/makita from the big box stores.

hddnis

One reason they don't allow internet sales is because of the government rules and regs. The exact same saws can be sold in two countries, but you can't sell the one sent to country A in country B. This has to do with certifications that batches of saws have to meet and tarriffs that are paid on those saws.

Then there are warrenty issues; some countries require alot more of the manufacturer as far as after sale liability. Each saw sent to a country has that built into the price. If another country requires less than the saw sent there has not been sold for enough money to cover their potential costs.


Clear as mud?




Mr. HE

KiwiBro

There is no technical impediment to any site wishing to charge differently according to the shipping address specified, is there?
Besides, i always thought the rules governing the obligations of the seller (outside those the seller themselves warrant) were determined not by the buyers location, but the server location upon which the transaction is processed?
If I buy a chainsaw from a US site, even if they have NZ distribution to cut down on shipping costs/times, the applicable law governing the sale is USA law, not NZ, isn't it?

hddnis

I'm not an international trade lawyer, but I do have an uncle that is one.


My understanding is that the company making the sale would fall under US law. You as the buyer would fall under the laws of your home country. This would include import regulations, duties, taxes, tariffs, etc.

I'm sure it gets much more complicated as there are trade treaties, technology export restrictions, taxes on international trade, and so on and so forth.

Some protections are good. Overall I think the whole world needs less government and more productivity.



Mr. HE

windthrown

Wa wa wa... What was that? Less government? Don't let Ted hear you say that in Salem!

KiwiBro

If Makita handled the shipment of stock to contract distribution warehouses (or their own) in markets where the volumes created a business case for Makita to do so, then surely Makita would be responsible for those landing charges/import duties/taxes (as the importer on record) and passes them onto the customer built into the price just like the price reflects all other costs of doing business with a customer.

Should the customer choose a model that's not in local stock then, any 1/2 decent site can filter available stock based on buyer country, clearly differentiate the pricing and terms, seek customer agreement thereof, before concluding the transaction?

Windthrown mentioned that Makita already allows internet sales of chainsaws in the US. Would I be right in thinking there is probably regional consumer legislation differences throughout the US? If so, clearly regional law differences are not such of a legal or technical impediment to cross region internet sales. Excuse me for appearing dim, but I can't see how the same approach couldn't be taken with bigger regions spanning countries.

windthrown

Here in the states, there are restrictions by law that block or stop sales of certain types of chainsaws in certain states (as well as cars, trucks, and anything with an internal combustgion engine). Particularly in California, where state smog laws are a lot tougher than national laws. Certain Stihl, Dolmar and Husky saws cannot be sold directly in California by anyone. Now, that does not stop people from buying stuff in other states and dragging it across the border. Or ordering them from out of state. There is no law against using out of state saws in those places. Seemingly the state legislatures are happy to restrict new saw sales in the state, and thwart 99% of the use of those newer saw models in state.

There are also tax issues. People buy a lot of stuff in Oregon from out of state becasue there is no sales tax here. If you live in California and Washington and you buy a saw here and lug it home, you are supposed to pay the local state sales tax as if you bought it there (as part of your income tax statement once a year), even if you buy the saw here. Do many people do that? I do not know. With cars, the state can regulate and restrict registration and licensing of cars bought out of state and brought into state. So California and Washington can weight a levy against anyone buying a car new here and driving it home and registering it there. You cannot license it here unless you live here. There are no license requirements for chainsaws though.

The US regional issue with companies like Dolmar and Stihl are complex. If you look at the Dolmar USA web site, and click on US distributors, you will see a map of the regions that the different distributors have in the US. Some states are cut in half, and some regions are not really geographic regions at all. For example, Magneto Power has the PNW all the way back to Wisconsin and the upper midwest. Then it has Texas, and some other states in teh south. This area shares nothing regionally with those areas. I am not sure about Stihl, but there seems to be an overlap with in Stihl distributors in this (the PNW) region. I can get some saw parts and bars and chains at some shops but not at others. I ask why, and they say that they have to order stuff through the distributors. Some distributors do not carry cerain parts.

Also when one dealer suspected that I was shipping saws out of state, he said that there was an issue with commissions, and he would not give me a discount if I was shippnig saws out of state (to avoid sales tax in those states, expecially across the river here into Washington state). It seems obvious to everyone in Washington that the way to save money is to buy stuff in Oregon. As an Oregon resident, I can buy stuff in Washington tax free. They passed a law there so that more Oregonians would shop in Washington. The state is broke and wants to repeal that law, and all that will do is reduce Washington state sales. What the state ligislature thinks it can gain is beyond me. But they spend and spend... like here in this state.

But getting back to chainsaws; the reason that Stihl and more recently Husky blocks open interstate sales it to protect their dealer network. If I cannot buy saws cheaper across regions on the internet or by catalog, then I am forced to buy new saws locally. In the case of Stihl that is OK, becasue there are dozens of Stihl shops in this state. There are all makes and models of Stihl saws here for sale within a half hour drive. But in the case of Dolmar, I am completely blocked from getting a new chainsaw. Well, I can go through the back door of an eastern dealer, or try in vain to find a shop near here and order one up. And if I get it, hope that it runs, because the shops here are not very experienced in fixing Dolmar saws. Husky is somewhat limited as well; lots of box stores for the lesser models, but only a few dealers have the bigger and pro models, and only one I know of stocks all the Husky models saws.

So for me? Stihl is the model of choice, becasue they are good saws, and they are here for the buying off the shelves, the dealers are many so I can pick and choose and get a better price, and I can get parts and service. W/o sales tax here, they are cheaper than across state lines. Otherwise I would go to Washington to buy them. They cannot legally set a saw price per region, as that would be collusion. But it is done anyway... appearing to be independant. But the fact that there is a PNW price sheet says otherwise.

Dunno if that answers any of the issues here... the states are complicated when it comes to commerce, and interstate commerce. In many respects we are 50 small countries glued together. What is legal here is illegal in California (with gun laws in particular). I own an AR-15 rifle. Here its just a long gun. Anyone can own one. In California they are considered an assault rifle and a weapon of menacing capability. It is a felony there to have possession of an AR-15 if you did not own it before the assault rifle ban went into effect, and if it is not registered and certified with the state. Here there is no sales tax. In California, it is 7% or more, depending on the county that you live in. But... in California, you can buy booze for cheap. Half the price as it is here. Oregon taxes the crap out of alchohol. So guess where I get my supply of vodka and tequilla?

Cut4fun

I like the Makita brand with a added personal touch of the Dolmar black covers instead of the grey ones.

kemper

You bet your a$$ they will survive, the 6400 and the 7900 are the cats meow and are highly respected, also the 5100s with the correct tuning, these saws are selling as fast as they come in here in the Midwest.

windthrown

Easy. You can say 'ass' here on this forum. And shit too. The Aussies are more tolerant of language than we are state-side.

As for Dolmar to survive, only a few areas are Dolmar savvy. Most regions are not like yours, and even in the midwest there are HUGE gaps in the Dolmar distribution system.

Baileys has more and more Makita saws now I see. So the Makita 'DCS' brand is an end-run around the Dolmar sales and distribution channels here for direct marketing and sales.

As for respect, I have zero respect for Dolmar, becasue I cannot get one here. As such, they do not exist.

kemper

I wonder why the distribution is so screwed up in other areas? They seem to be good around here.

KiwiBro

Does this also hold true:


"You bet your a$$ [makita] will survive, the [DCS 6401] and the [DCS 7901] are the cats meow and are highly respected, also the [DCS 5030] with the correct tuning, ...."


If Dolmar were replaced by Makita models at your local dealer, would you still buy it, either from that dealer, or from the internet, knowing the actual product you are buying hasn't changed and if anything, has a more comprehensive distribution network?

Furthermore, does anyone consider that if Dolmar was stronger, and was still an independent operator, they would even consider making DCS models for Makita? I'm not sure they would b/c of the confusion and natural fear of their brand awareness and perception not to mention sales, being cannibalised by Makita DCS products. So, that is why I'm thinking the only reason Dolmar are doing it now is because there is a strategic imperative imposed by Makita. It is that strategy that I'm trying to figure out and I just can't see why Makita, after buying Dolmar, would willingly compete against itself like it is doing if not positioning itself for a different route to market in the future.

kemper

Yea i would buy Makita,it's the same saw,but I'd rather have the Dolmar colors though, but i don't think that Dolmar will be phased out from what i've heard, and i wonder why Makita don't have the 5100s ?

windthrown

Well, Dolmar is not the one making the choices, as Makita ownes them outright. I believe that Makita is getting around the pre-existing Dolmar distributor deals rather than competing with itself by branding and direct selling the Makita DCS line of saws. Makita also has to deal with the current Dolmar US distribuition crap, as well as the bad air from when Dolmar pulled out of the US previously. They pissed a lot of distributors and dealers off with that move. Dolmar here means two lines of saws; the current one, and the older line.

That aside, Makita is a far better known and respected name. Like 100 compared to zero in the PNW. Typically no one around here even knows what the DCS on a Makita chainsaw means. Or cares. I prefer the teal green myself, and I have a lot of Makita tools. No DCS ones though.

windthrown

I think that Makita stays away from the riskier saws like the 5100s becasue they are unproven models, and they (Dolmar) has had a lot of problems with them being tuned right (and the carb boot problem) in the US with US gas. The 510 is the same saw really, which Makita has, but it is toned down.

kemper

They don't have the 5105 that just came out either, the 510 is no slouch but lots slower than the 5100 and heavier too, alum vs mag, and the 5100 has the S crank=14500. I just realized that Makita don't have the 420, now thats a good little saw, i switched mine over to .325 chain from the .375 lo pro that it came with, big difference!

windthrown

From what I can gleen, Magneto Power here has the Dolmar line along with a lot of other products. Dolmar is low on their list of priorities. From dealers that I have talked to (mostly ex-dealers) in the PNW, they have had nothing but problems dealing with this distributor. They cannot get new saws (always back-ordered), they cannot get parts, and they cannot get authorization to do warantee work. They have also had problems with certain models like the 5100s here. From the calls I have made locally, the local Dolmar dealers do not know much about the company, the saws, or how to fix them. When I complained about this on some of the other chainsaw forums, I got a lot of replies from Dolmar dealers in other areas in the US with the same problems. So it is not just a Magneto Power issue, it seems to be an issue with a lot of regions and distributors in the US. Some areas are well covered, and they get saws and parts and have trained support. But that is pretty rare. NY and the upper Midwest seem to be the best Dolly areas.

Well, I would look at them if they existed here, but they do not. Dolmar or Makita DCS saws that are worth anything are not on any shelves around here. You can rent a 6401 at Home Depot. That's about it. New? There is nothing more than a new 34 or 341 model. Dolmar dealers here are some smaller hole in the wall lawn mower and rental shops only. And half of the ones listed on their site do not deal in Dolmar any more. I asked them all why, and most do not want to discuss Dolmar, and they are mad that they are still listed on their web site. Local support is also the issue.

I have a bazillion Stihl shops to choose from here. And a few Husky shops. But Dolmar... hmmmmmmm... D... O... L... M... A... R... Dolmar you say? Scratching head. I tried in vain to get a PS420 here last year. Non-existant. None of the local shops that carry Dolmar had one, or had even seen one. Two did not know they existed. I mean, would you buy a saw from someone that has to order it and they have never seen or heard of that model? May as well buy a saw from a big box store or online. But online, how are you going to get service for a lemmon?

I would trust Makita far more than Domlar myself. If for no other reason than avoiding the Dolmar BS sales and parts channels here. I also like the teal green better anyway (I hate red). Not that I will likely buy one. I have been tempted to get some of the Husky saws (372 and the 346 in particular), but the bars and chains are different, they take different parts (have to go to more stores) and so why bother? I can live with my Stihl 026s being a lesser and older design saw than the 346xp type II or a 5100s. They run good, do the job, and they last forever. And I can get parts for them about a 10 minutes drive from here. No brainer. All I can say is good luck Dolmar. In this economy (US economy is still dragging ass), that is true for us all though.