Used ms440/w BB kit or new ms460?

Straw

Hi all, looking for a few opinions and some advice.

Today while blocking down some 38" Poplar I realized my 044 is just plain old. I bought it new in 96 and have had it on many jobs. When it was new I had it ported / polished and a double port muffler made and also changed the air filter to the "Max-Flow"oil element. I run an Oregon 32" pro bar with full skip chisel chain on it or a 20" Stihl es with full comp . I have always ran the proper mix and taken exceptional care of it, but it is showing its age. I went to look for a BB (big bore) kit to "freshen" it up and found it is so old the kits will not even work on it. It is in the pre x 29 xxx xxx serial number category with the 10mm pin, not 12mm. I really like the 044s weight vs power and never had any major issues with the saw. Today I could feel the saw tremble in my hands crying out for help as I buried the 32" bar full on into the wood. In the past I have used the 32" in several types of hardwood with no issues or strain. Today a Poplar kicked its ass .

I am wondering if I should look for a used ms440 and drop the big bore kit on it and swap my muffler / air cleaner over or should I look into getting the ms460 and having that modded? Does the extra weight the 460 have equal way more heavy duty and or power? Or should I just get a ms660 and sweat it out when working aloft and be happy when I run my "Ripsaw" for cabin making lol. I would love the ms660 but as it is already the 044 can beat me down on a full day of lugging it around in a tree.

Thanks for any and all input on this for me to make a good decision. I respect and appreciate you guys on this forum. I have learned a lot here already, and gotten some great advice!

Straw

windthrown

I dunno in what country you are located on Earth. That would be a factor in the decision making. I think you are insane to wanna lug a 660 around in a tree. A 440 is bad enough. A 460 is not too much more weight than a 440, and would be the better option. However, I prefer my dual port 044 to the 460 that I used to have. Lighter, about the same power, and for whatever reason, I like the 044 a lot more than the 460. That said, the largest saw I have climbed with is a 361. I do not climb with my 044. I prefer to climb with one of my 026s or a 200T, actually. But I am in the suburbian tree butcher biz these days, and I do not log any more, nor do I climb that much any more.

One thing about aftermarket big bore kits (or any aftermarket jug and slug kits out there) is that they are all Chicom made, and hence will only have about half the useful life of a Stihl OEM jug and slug. Basically it comes down to tolerances and the way that they are made. Yes, a few Stihl saws went out with Chicom jugs on them, but they were few. I am debating to put another jug and slug on my second 026, or just sell it. It has a semi-scored cylinder. A replacement Chicom engine is $100, OEM is more like $200. About the same as a 440 engine. I can get a whole used 026 in good condition for $200. So why bother? The 440 is more spendy though, so maybe a new engine would be worth it. Maybe just get another OEM spec Stihl 044 engine for it, especially if you are in Oz.

Otherwise, if you live stateside, I would look for a good used 440 to replace your 044 with. Maybe put your 044 on Craigslist or Ebay and unload it, and use the money towards your newer and better 440. You can get about $300 for a good running but tired 044 around here, more if it has options and has more shine to it. One thing about the 044/440 is that the case bearings tend to go out more often over time. With the 660 they are not supposed to do that, but I blew a clutch side bearing on my 066. The guy I bought it from obviously overtightened his chains a lot. It was not worth replacing. It was $50 for the one side bearing, $50 more for the seals, $50 for the othe side bearing, plus I'd have to split the case. I do not have the tools to do that, so I said screw it and I tore it down and sold it as parts on Ebay for about $300. Fixed I could have gotten maybe $500 for it. Again, not worth fixing. Blown bearings and engines cost about the same for parts, but bearings are harder to replace. Seems cheaper for me just to off blown bearing and tired engine saws on Ebay as parts, and get a replacement saw.

Hope my ranting helps.

windthrown

BTW, you could try to put in new rings, or a new piston and rings. There are 044 10mm wrist pin piston and ring sets on Ebay all the time (for around $30).

Bruce Hopf

Personally, after working with my 044, and after the muffler modification I did on it, what power it has. Weighs 16.5 Lbs, with full tanks, and a 20" 3/8 pitch bar, and chain.
I don't know too much about the 460 though. If you get the 440, I found a guy on eBay that sells complete Cylinder kits for around $90.00 + shipping.
Bruce.

__________________
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1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver
2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10
Stihl chain saws
2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084,
Strunk chain saws
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Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

Straw

Lol no I do not want to climb with a ms660 :P . I just mention it because it is the largest saw you can bolt up to the Ripsaw band mill and I would love to have one. heh

I am in the "states".

I had read on the site that the ms440 went away because of the EPA regs and the ms361 is soon to follow. I am wondering why the ms460 is still available. Isn't it just a big brother to the 440? Or is it an EPA saw?
I have used one before as my brother has the ms460, but he is a stickler to always keep things stock and I thought it was kind of a heavy dog. At the time my modded 044 out cut it by a fair margin. My 044 also seamed to have a better balance to it.

The big bore kit I was looking at is a "Woodland Pro" anyone have experience with this brand kit?

Thanks for all the response so far.

Straw

Straw

Can anyone explain what the difference is to a "magnum" and non-"magnum" saw?

windthrown

Depends on the saw. In the USA, a 440 and 460 Magnum means nothing. Same saw, magnum or not. Oh, excuse, me, it means that there is a *Magnum* sticker on it . In Canada, a Magnum typically means it has a dual port muffler. Same with the short-lived 066/066 Magnum. For a breif time, the 066 Mag ment it had a DP muffler. The EPA did away with it.

On some Stihl saws the Magnum actually means something, like Super does. The 038 the Magnum actually has a larger piston and more displacement than the 'Super' model. There is also an 038 Magnum II but no one seems to know the difference between that and the 038 Mag I (other than that the 038/380 Mag II is made in Brazil).

So "Magnum" generally means 'marketing gimmik' on Stihls stateside.

windthrown

I agree on your 044 modded vs the 460 stock. I have owned both, and I still have my 044 modded saw. The 440 was done away with becasue of the US EPA laws are changing in 2010, and becasue EU and UK AV laws. Stihl looked to the future, and redesigned the 440 ahead of time with the strato-scavanged (air injected) 441 type engine design and a new external spring mounted design for better AV. The 362 is a copy of that design, and has the same engine design changes. Sadly the 361 which was a great engineering one-off, and is going away for EPA and AV reasons. Otherwise they would have built more saws based on the 361 design.

The 460 is not really a big brother to the 440. They seem to be from a marketing standpoint, but the saws are pretty different. Most 440 and 460 parts are not interchangable, compared to the 290/310/390 saws where just about everything is interchangable. The 460 is not EPA or AV compliant, and it will go away, and is not being replaced. Or rather, they will sell you a 441 in its place. They may make a 461 in years to come, but no word on it at the factory as of yet. The low end saws have already been replaced; the EPA/AV friendly strato & spring loaded 171, 181 and 211 are out there now. Loolkng at the Stihl web site, it shows that the 362 is out now as well. Looks more spendy at $690. Seemingly they can sell the 460 as long as sales of the cleaner 361/362 and 441 are up to get under the EPA regs. But I am not sure how long that will last. 2010 EPA regs are very strict.

Straw

OK I just scored a lightly used ms440 in the right serial number for the big bore kit. Thanks for the responses Now to score a 361 before they are all gone lol

Straw /cheers

Straw

Oh almost forgot. I dialed 1-800-gostihl and talked to a tech rep about the ms440 vs ms440 magnum and he said everything was the same except the carb on the magnum was different. I sored the ms440 magnum for my big bore project.

Straw /cheers

Cole

lol hey straw or you could just go and buy a new 441 and be done with it..

Straw

I looked into the ms441. Then I read several bad reviews of the saw. Then talking to 3 service techs and I decided not to go there.

Straw

Cole

hey straw ive got a 2 year old ms460 and i prefer my 441 i think its alot more easier on the body and to use for long periods of time ive only had to use it up in the tree a few times and its heaps easier to start up a tree than the ms460, the filter doesnt need cleaning nealy as much either, but the little clips on the air filter cover are hard to open without a chainsaw tool. sure the 460 has more grunt but i always find myself reaching for the 441. just checked out the sthil USA website so jelous. sthil dont import all of there models to australia, i like the new 362 will definelty buy one of those to replace my 034. ive got a ms 280 and a 034 that i use in the tree, dont know much about the 034 brought it from an auction it only had like 3hrs on it when i brought it,

Straw

Cool.

I didn't buy a 460. I have an 044 and a ms440 that I am putting a big bore jug and piston on to bring it up to what a stock 460 is but the less weight of the 44. With the double port muffler and a Max-flow added it should be a blocking ripper

Straw /cheers

Eric Frei

I'm in the market for a 440 .... Windthrown, any decent 2nd handy's that aint seen palms are OK too, any help appreciated guys.

__________________

Cole

shit yeah, do you just get the sleve, piston, pin and bearings etc for a 460 and insert into the ms440 cylinder?how long do think they last.. what were the techs telling you about the 441...i use reviews to check stuff all the time they can be good, when it comes down to the bottom line a reveiw is only as good as its source, you sound like a professional why take someone else's word i say when you can check it out for yourself.

windthrown

You already scored the jug on that thing?

Wow, that was quick!

windthrown

Some people have dropped a 460 jug and slug onto a 440, but the bolt pattern on a 460 jug is wider than the 440 and the 460 jug will not fit under the 440 top cover. You have to do a lot of fab work and mods to get them to fit. You are way better off getting a 440 BB kit that is designed to fit the 440. The 440 BB displacement is about the same as a 460, but it fits the 440. The kits typically do not have the crank rod end bearings, you use the stock ones. They have rings, piston, wrist pins, and the cylinder in the kits.

Cole

i understand now windthrown cheers, what does the bb kit take the cc to after you fit the BB kit and what is the standard cc on the ms440, do you knowo much about a 034

windthrown

I never ran an 034. I do not know anything about them. They do not sell the 341 here in the states, and I do not think that they ever sold the 034/340 here either. There are a lot of 036/360s here which are good saws. I prefer the 361 though.

The 440 big bore kit adds 2mm to the piston diameter. So the 440 becomes 52mm from 50mm, with 76.5cc displacement, which is the same as the stock 460. The stock 440 is 70.7cc. So a 440 + BB kit = stock 460, by displacement. The 440BB is about 3/4 of a pound lighter than the 460 though.

windthrown

The last numbered early model 044 saw with the 10mm wrist pins had a case ID number 129382283. All the 044 and 440 saws after that have 12mm wrist pins in them.

Bailey's has a 10mm wrist pin 044 big bore kit listed on thier site (under the 12mm wrist pin BB kit), but they do not have them any more. The site has not been updated to reflect this yet.

Also, if you are interested, there is a good used factory Stihl 044 jug and slug on Ebay right now with a 10mm wrist pin (open for about 4 more days):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230387374750&_trkparms=tab%3DWatching

windthrown

Eye will keep an eye peeled for one. Have not seen one here in a while though, and certainly not like the flood of them listed here last year at this time (the local market was flooded with them from laid off loggers).

Straw

I talked to Baileys about the ms440 BB kit on there sight. They told me it was not made in China. The guy said depending on which shipment came in it would be made in Italy or Japan.

Ekka, when I was looking around for the ms440 I found this auction from a Stihl dealer on ebay. 3 days left starting price $400. I sent him a message asking for compression and serial number. He said the compression was 140 and the serial number is 163431049 (well with in the range for a bb kit if you go that route)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260490793948&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123

Straw /cheers

windthrown

I will never buy a saw off of Fleabay again. From a Stihl dealer or not. I have been burned several times on that. I started a wild thread over on AS several years ago about a "good running" 210 that was really a flipped beater. That thread became the Saw From Hell thread, and the thread is gone now (led to flame wars, bannings, etc). My ex has that saw, and it still runs after I did a lot of work to it. Now my rule is to never buy a saw I have not run in my hands, or someone that I trust has not run it in their's. Even then I have bought saws with bad bearings, or other hidden problems. I buy and sell saw parts on Ebay, and that's about it now. If you buy a 'good running saw' on Ebay, expect the seals to be blown and the engine to be scored. Seriously.

Also 140# compression is not that great. Its getting tired. Also from the wear you can tell its been used. $400 is all its money here in the PNW. I have seen better saws here sell for less on CL.

Straw

I hear you about ebay. I don't fully trust that place either. I was just passing along what I found and thought since they are a Stihl dealer it would most probably be on the up and up. I used to sell gaming items for diablo II lod and once got ripped off for 200 bucks. After a bunch of hassle I got paid but only after it cost me a few bucks for ebay's service fee to reclaim my cash from insurance.

Straw

windthrown

Yah, I have done and won both the Ebay & Paypal dispute thing. Its BS. I recommend only paying for larger stuff (over $100) on Ebay through PayPal with a CC. That way if they rip you off or you do not get the item in the mail, you go to the CC company and do a return through them. They debit Paypal and/or the guy that ripped you off when the item is signed for on return delivery. You are still out the return delivery costs though. I sell all my saw parts with a no BS return policy. If they do not like it, send it back (at their expense, and I get a credit from Paypal and Ebay for a returned item).

Bruce Hopf

I have a Stihl 034, and I really like it, in fact I picked up another one today, for $50.00 in decent shape. I have to put in a new piston, possibly a carb kit, and it will be good to go. Nice handling chain saws, with 60 CC's stock, and to work on. Bruce.

__________________
McCulloch chain saws
1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's,
2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener,
1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver
2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10
Stihl chain saws
2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084,
Strunk chain saws
1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special
Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

Rob Chace

ive got (2) pre-change over 044's (so they have 10mm wrist pin).
Whats stopping me from using a 046 rod instead? or can it be safely taken out 1mm internal radius to achieve 12mm?
havent done a BB on my own saw yet so seings as i have 2 of them im keen to experiment.
Also have an 045AV, thats a 38mm(?) stroke, anyone know if that is/isnt compatable? Again is this 10/12mm little end?

...Im going to give it a go regardless.

54mm bore and 38mm stroke.....? (87cc's)?

steve--

That's highhhhhly unlikely, as the force the engine puts on the chain when under a load greatly exceedes the relatively small amount of pressure tightening the chain does. Even when tightening a chain as tight as you can get it, under a load the engine causes the chain on the top side of the bar to becom lax, overiding the adjuster tension.