Stihl MS361 upgrades and options

windthrown · 16th April 2009, 12:08 PM

As far as Stihl computers and dealers saying that these mods will not work, that is pure BS. If you want to believe the goons at the Stihl counter with their computers, by all means, stay away from modifying your own saws!!!! I know several people that have done these oil pump mods and they fit and worked. They are also easy to do. PM me if you want names and verifiable sources of the information on the internet. And detailed instructions on how to swap out the oiler parts. I will not post them here, as they are on another forum.

The reason that this upgrade will work is that the oil pump housing in these saws are the same (361 and 460). You can get a ~slight~ increase in oil output from the piston upgrade alone, but that part is about $30, the lion share of the upgrade. The control bolt is about $4.

Stock:
MS361 oil piston: 1135 647 0600
MS361 oil control bolt: 1128 647 4806
361 pump: 5.5 to 15cc/min at 10,500 rpm

Stock:
MS460 oil piston: 1135 647 0606
MS460 oil control bolt: 1128 647 4806
Standard 046/441/460 pump - 6 to 17cc/min at 10,500 rpm

Upgrade:
MS460R oil pump piston: 1128 647 0602
MS460R oil pump control bolt: 1128 647 4803
046/441/460R pump - 6 to 24cc/min at 10,500 rpm

Note that if you adjust the 460R oiler to the max you will probably indeed empty the oil tank in a 361 before the gas tank. However, Stihl does not recommend running a 28 inch bar on a stock 361 either. Note that this upgrade will also work on the 441, but not the 044/440.

StihlTheOne · 18th April 2009, 02:11 PM

Hey, thanks for posting the add'l pic of the wrap handle. Appreciate your effort. May still PM ya with a couple questions.

Therrin · 18th April 2009, 06:51 PM

Ohhhhh ok Windthrow, well therein lies the rub.

I was comparing stock 361 to stock 460R parts, where the control bolt IS the same number. The upgrade for the 460R is part of an upgrade kit FOR the 460R which also just happens to work with the 361 since they use the same bolt anyway? Huh...

It'd be interesting to do an actual measurement of oil output at a set RPM with no bar on the saw.

windthrown · 18th April 2009, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Therrin

Ohhhhh ok Windthrow, well therein lies the rub.

I was comparing stock 361 to stock 460R parts, where the control bolt IS the same number. The upgrade for the 460R is part of an upgrade kit FOR the 460R which also just happens to work with the 361 since they use the same bolt anyway? Huh...

It'd be interesting to do an actual measurement of oil output at a set RPM with no bar on the saw.

If you put in the oiler parts listed above into your 361, in the pairs that I listed, you will get the output results that I posted. They work becasue they all have the same oil pump housing, not becasue they happen to share the same bolt. You can drop in the entire oil pump from the 460, or the 460RZ Magnum (as listed in the IPL for the USA and Canada, AKA: the 460R "upgrade", or 460 'full wrap model') into a 361 and they will work the same as if you pop in just the bolt and piston. The bolt and piston are a lot cheaper. The pairing is key here to the different resulting outputs.

I dunno why you would want to re-test the outputs as specified by Stihl. Lakeside has slightly different numbers for oil output at 10,000 RPMs, but so close it would not matter. Those being (quoting Andy here from another Forum, a full wrap 460 is the really a 3/4 wrap 460RZ Magnum model):

At full output (and at 10,000rpm), the 361 is 15.5cc/minute. A stock 460 is 17, and a full wrap about 24. (IIRC... I gave the number in another post a long time ago). The full wrap version is mainly for the softwood industry on the west cost where longer bars are used, hense the higher output.

Therrin · 18th April 2009, 08:31 PM

Ok then thats cool, I just misunderstood. thanks for straightening it out.

Willard Holmen · 19th April 2009, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Therrin

Ok then thats cool, I just misunderstood. thanks for straightening it out.

Some cool upgrades for the 361 windthrown! Having read all this thread, what it all boils down too is: will the oil tank go dry before the fuel runs out. If it does then its not a good plan, you will be getting back to the bar blueing problem. If you need more oil supply for a longer bar then go to a 440/460 with the bigger tank. But then again if your only cutting occasional with that 361/28" who cares.

axman · 25th May 2009, 04:50 PM

can i run a 28inch bar with no problems
and what about dual port muffler

newguy18 · 25th May 2009, 09:54 PM

with a 28" bar,i would go with at least a 441.

windthrown · 26th May 2009, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by axman

can i run a 28inch bar with no problems
and what about dual port muffler

No dual port muffer available from Stihl on a 361. The 361 mufflers are crimped together. Custom muffler mods only on that saw.

MS 390 (Denmark) · 25th February 2010, 06:02 AM

the carb,dos it has the restricters on the H/L setteling skrews??

windthrown · 25th February 2010, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS 390 (Denmark)

the carb,dos it has the restricters on the H/L setteling skrews??

Yep, same as on the 390. All the newer MS model saws from Stihl have them I think.

MS 390 (Denmark) · 25th February 2010, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windthrown

Yep, same as on the 390. All the newer MS model saws from Stihl have them I think.

windthrown,you save my day again

I have sold my ms390 and bought the 361........ i wanna do a muffler mod and retune the carb....... man!!!! i cant wait to cut some trees

the trees will hate me from now!! LOL

windthrown · 25th February 2010, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS 390 (Denmark)

windthrown,you save my day again

I have sold my ms390 and bought the 361........ i wanna do a muffler mod and retune the carb....... man!!!! i cant wait to cut some trees

the trees will hate me from now!! LOL

Ah, another devoted and happy 361 convert.

Too bad the 361 is going away. Give the new 361 about 10 tanks of gas to reach full power. Once you modify the saw you will also void the warantee.

The 361 does not have that much more power than the 390. But it is a LOT smoother, weighs less, and you will be far less tired after using the 361 compared to wrestling with the 390. And the 361 revs higher; you can push the 361 to 14.5k RPM WOT easy. The speed is where the real difference is. The 361s are also a lot easier to work on, and they will last longer. The 390 weighs the same as the 362; about 3/4 of a pound more than the 361.

361 vibration: left/right 2.9/3.6 m/s*s
390 vibration: left/right 5.9/5.1 m/s*s

The 361 has about half the vibration of a 390, which is why Stihl replaced the 390 with the 391 in the EU before they did here in the states. EU vibration laws are stricter than in the US.

Ronald Lane · 4th March 2010, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windthrown

Much debate is out there regarding what is the best bar size for the MS 361. I have 16, 18, 20, 25, and 28 inch bars, all in Stihl ES type and some in GB Pro Top, and some in Stihl E type as well. I have run them all on the 361s. The factory advises using a 16" through 25" bar on the 361. However, I have seen them sold and slung here in the PNW with 28" bars, and even 32" bars. The problem with running a 28" or 32" bar on the 361 is that the stock 361 oiler will not keep it wet enough. I got my second 361 with a 28 inch bar on it. It has little wear, but has obvious signs of burning from too little oil, even with the oiler turned up to high (I will post a solution to that problem in a note later).

I think that if you were only to have one bar for this saw (if it is not modified), it should be a 20". Some others feel that the 18" is the ideal size bar for this saw. It depends on your cutting conditions, and the type of wood and the type of cuts that you are making, as well as the chain type that you are using. Personally, I have found that I like the 25" bar with 3/8" std. chain the best on the 361. Really! They have more than enough power to drive that size bar. My next favorite is the 20" bar. That is a wide variety of cutting, from felling, bucking, firewood cutting, noodling, thinning, and limbing. As I said in the post above, I change rims sprockets to match the bars I am using. For more torque driving a 20" or longer bar, I use a 7 pin rim sprocket. For driving an 18" or 16" bar, I run an 8 pin rim for more chain speed, as they have more than enough torque from the 361.

I like the GB Pro Top and Ti bars a lot, as they are flatter (less oval) than Stihl ES bars and they put up with a LOT of abuse. I have bent them when trees and bent them right back in the shop. Overall, I feel that using a solid bar is far better than using a laminated one. Mainly from experience bending bars, pinching them, in tree cuts, and overall wear and tear. They cost more, but they are worth it.

Here is a link to the more common Stihl bars used on their saws, including the 361. It is not complete, but it has most of the options and part numbers:

http://www.stihllibrary.com/pdfs/SawChainSelection.pdf

Just wondering what you use to bend your bars back. I have several bent bars and cant seem to get them back to straight.

Willard Holmen · 5th March 2010, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronald Lane

Just wondering what you use to bend your bars back. I have several bent bars and cant seem to get them back to straight.

Laminated bars are almost impossible to straighten but if its a solid body bar hammer them with about a 2 lb hammer at the bent point in the bar body [hump side up] on a flat surface ,don't hit the rails.
If you don't have a flat heavy steel to lay the bar on , a smooth garage concrete floor is good enough.
Hump side up.
Willard.

Ronald Lane · 5th March 2010, 08:10 PM

Ill try that, thanks.

windthrown · 9th March 2010, 05:54 PM

On solid bars I prefer to bend them back on a bench or other straight surface. Align the bar bent side up with the bend seam along the edge of the bench. Use C-clamps to keep the bar in place with a metal strap between them and the bar. Then lever the bar down along the seam. I have two solid bars I bent back that way and you cannot tell that they were ever bent at all. My bent GB bar was easier to mend than my Stihl one, but GBs have a narrower bar width than Stihl does (less oval rails).

ciccio · 19th March 2010, 01:16 PM

Hello Windthrown,

I just bought a 361 its my first saw, i will be using the saw for just bucking firewood is it worth to get the two bigger dawgs and chain catcher that you mention, would it help me in anyway if all i do is buck wood, sorry if its a stupid question but I am new to this and help to get some help and learn some things, is that part#for stihl you mention a USA part number? I have the 20" bar that came with the saw and just bought a 24" bar as well for maybe some bigger wood... Thanks for any help you many give me....

ciccio

windthrown · 19th March 2010, 03:18 PM

The parts are USA Stihl numbers, yes. I live in the USA myself. The left coast...

Big dual dogs are nice, but not required. And not for bucking up firewood. Big dog spikes are good for old Doug firs, pine and other types of trees with thick bark. The dogs are mainly used for leveraging off of when falling, or when bucking. Some guys that race do not even use them.

One thing about the larger falling dogs on the 361 kit is that they are not that much bigger than the stock one. They have the lower roller chain catcher which is nice if you throw a lot of chains. If you want real falling dogs though I would go with the larger type that I have on my 044. Those are nice big doggies. They do not fit the stock 361 though; you have to grind the lower spikes some to get them to fit. The 361 has a different curve that the spikes fit into than the 440 does.

You should do just fine with your 20 and 24/25 inch bar set. No such thing as stupid questions. Just stupid people that do not ask them.

windthrown · 19th March 2010, 03:22 PM

Here is a photo of the 361 with dual dogs, large side cover and 3/4 wrap.

windthrown · 19th March 2010, 03:24 PM

Here is a photo of the 044 with the same setup but with the larger dogs:

ciccio · 19th March 2010, 11:16 PM

Thank you very much for my answer, I'm sure i will have more questions down the road and happy there are people here willing to help.

Thanks again Windthrown have a great weekend..

Ciccio

MS 390 (Denmark) · 28th March 2010, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windthrown

Here is a photo of the 361 with dual dogs, large side cover and 3/4 wrap.

Hey windthrown,what do you think that kit will cost to send to Denmark??
It cant be bought in EU

windthrown · 29th March 2010, 06:22 PM

I will have to call and find out what the prices for the kit are now (or if they are still available). Its been a while. Last I priced the 3/4-wrap/dual-roller-dog/scrench/large-side-cover kit here they were $140 USD. That was 2 years ago though. I would guess shipping to Denmark would be about $40 USD. That would be $180, plus $15 Paypal and packing costs, for a total of $195 USD, or €145 EUR at today's exchange rate of €1 = $1.3433.

MS 390 (Denmark) · 29th March 2010, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windthrown

I will have to call and find out what the prices for the kit are now (or if they are still available). Its been a while. Last I priced the 3/4-wrap/dual-roller-dog/scrench/large-side-cover kit here they were $140 USD. That was 2 years ago though. I would guess shipping to Denmark would be about $40 USD. That would be $180, plus $15 Paypal and packing costs, for a total of $195 USD, or €145 EUR at today's exchange rate of €1 = $1.3433.

sounds great...... thanks man.....

windthrown · 31st March 2010, 06:03 AM

The cost for the 3/4 wrap upgrade kit is now $160 USD, so with shipping and paypal that would be $215 USD, or €160 EUR.

MS 390 (Denmark) · 31st March 2010, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windthrown

The cost for the 3/4 wrap upgrade kit is now $160 USD, so with shipping and paypal that would be $215 USD, or €160 EUR.

I´m ready

how do we do it??

bipot · 13th April 2010, 03:28 AM

New to forum and avid 361 owner and user. Use it for cutting blanks for woodturning. Interested in the 3/4 wrap conversion and dual dogs for the 361. In looking at the pictures, is there an added inconvenience when changing chains? It looks as though the dual dogs have to be removed to remove the cover. Is that true? I am not a full time user but do use it on an average basis. I do a lot of ripping for turning blanks and have missed not having dogs on the right side when doing that. I only have the 20" bar now but am planning on purchasing the 25" too. Would be interested to hear what you think I should do to convert the saw. Thanks.

windthrown · 13th April 2010, 07:54 AM

No inconvenience. The chain roller is on a pin that slots into the outer dog. The outer dog comes off with the side cover and the inner one stays put like on any Stihl saw. The kit comes with a new short scrench becasue the tall ones do not have the clearance to get past the 3/4 wrap to loosen the bar nuts.

bipot · 13th April 2010, 08:44 AM

Thanks for your response windthrown. I missed that point when you reveiwed the part #'s earlier. In thinking about the 3/4 wrap, I do most of my work after the tree is felled. I am thinking that may inhibit my real need for that. Maybe I should get the 1135 6550 7750 dual dog and a new 25" bar instead. Right now, our fuel in this area is being furnished with 10% ethanol and the saws are running too lean. Has already burned up one or two in the club. I need to modify this 361 to avert those troubles. So, maybe that should be the first modification. Would be interested in your commenting in general on that as well. Thanks again.

16th April 2009, 12:08 PM	#31
windthrown Former Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: In the Great Pacific Northwest Posts: 1,211	Re: Stihl MS361 upgrades and options As far as Stihl computers and dealers saying that these mods will not work, that is pure BS. If you want to believe the goons at the Stihl counter with their computers, by all means, stay away from modifying your own saws!!!! I know several people that have done these oil pump mods and they fit and worked. They are also easy to do. PM me if you want names and verifiable sources of the information on the internet. And detailed instructions on how to swap out the oiler parts. I will not post them here, as they are on another forum. The reason that this upgrade will work is that the oil pump housing in these saws are the same (361 and 460). You can get a ~slight~ increase in oil output from the piston upgrade alone, but that part is about $30, the lion share of the upgrade. The control bolt is about $4. Stock: MS361 oil piston: 1135 647 0600 MS361 oil control bolt: 1128 647 4806 361 pump: 5.5 to 15cc/min at 10,500 rpm Stock: MS460 oil piston: 1135 647 0606 MS460 oil control bolt: 1128 647 4806 Standard 046/441/460 pump - 6 to 17cc/min at 10,500 rpm Upgrade: MS460R oil pump piston: 1128 647 0602 MS460R oil pump control bolt: 1128 647 4803 046/441/460R pump - 6 to 24cc/min at 10,500 rpm Note that if you adjust the 460R oiler to the max you will probably indeed empty the oil tank in a 361 before the gas tank. However, Stihl does not recommend running a 28 inch bar on a stock 361 either. Note that this upgrade will also work on the 441, but not the 044/440.

18th April 2009, 02:11 PM	#32
StihlTheOne Sappling Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: SW IND Posts: 11	Re: Stihl MS361 upgrades and options Hey, thanks for posting the add'l pic of the wrap handle. Appreciate your effort. May still PM ya with a couple questions.

18th April 2009, 06:51 PM	#33
Therrin Former Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Bakersfield, Ca Posts: 2,512	Re: Stihl MS361 upgrades and options Ohhhhh ok Windthrow, well therein lies the rub. I was comparing stock 361 to stock 460R parts, where the control bolt IS the same number. The upgrade for the 460R is part of an upgrade kit FOR the 460R which also just happens to work with the 361 since they use the same bolt anyway? Huh... It'd be interesting to do an actual measurement of oil output at a set RPM with no bar on the saw.

18th April 2009, 08:31 PM	#35
Therrin Former Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Bakersfield, Ca Posts: 2,512	Re: Stihl MS361 upgrades and options Ok then thats cool, I just misunderstood. thanks for straightening it out.

25th May 2009, 04:50 PM	#37
axman I'm new here so be nice Join Date: May 2009 Location: sandy, or Posts: 1	Re: Stihl MS361 upgrades and options can i run a 28inch bar with no problems and what about dual port muffler

25th May 2009, 09:54 PM	#38
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: orlando,fl Posts: 4,977	Re: Stihl MS361 upgrades and options with a 28" bar,i would go with at least a 441. __________________ Have your say join us today. old schooler

25th February 2010, 06:02 AM	#40
MS 390 (Denmark) Sappling Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Denmark Posts: 47	Re: Stihl MS361 upgrades and options the carb,dos it has the restricters on the H/L setteling skrews??

5th March 2010, 08:10 PM	#46
Ronald Lane I'm new here so be nice Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 2	Re: Stihl MS361 upgrades and options Ill try that, thanks.

9th March 2010, 05:54 PM	#47
windthrown Former Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: In the Great Pacific Northwest Posts: 1,211	Re: Stihl MS361 upgrades and options On solid bars I prefer to bend them back on a bench or other straight surface. Align the bar bent side up with the bend seam along the edge of the bench. Use C-clamps to keep the bar in place with a metal strap between them and the bar. Then lever the bar down along the seam. I have two solid bars I bent back that way and you cannot tell that they were ever bent at all. My bent GB bar was easier to mend than my Stihl one, but GBs have a narrower bar width than Stihl does (less oval rails).

19th March 2010, 01:16 PM	#48
ciccio Sappling Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: new jersey Posts: 11	Re: Stihl MS361 upgrades and options Hello Windthrown, I just bought a 361 its my first saw, i will be using the saw for just bucking firewood is it worth to get the two bigger dawgs and chain catcher that you mention, would it help me in anyway if all i do is buck wood, sorry if its a stupid question but I am new to this and help to get some help and learn some things, is that part#for stihl you mention a USA part number? I have the 20" bar that came with the saw and just bought a 24" bar as well for maybe some bigger wood... Thanks for any help you many give me.... ciccio

19th March 2010, 03:18 PM	#49
windthrown Former Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: In the Great Pacific Northwest Posts: 1,211	Re: Stihl MS361 upgrades and options The parts are USA Stihl numbers, yes. I live in the USA myself. The left coast... Big dual dogs are nice, but not required. And not for bucking up firewood. Big dog spikes are good for old Doug firs, pine and other types of trees with thick bark. The dogs are mainly used for leveraging off of when falling, or when bucking. Some guys that race do not even use them. One thing about the larger falling dogs on the 361 kit is that they are not that much bigger than the stock one. They have the lower roller chain catcher which is nice if you throw a lot of chains. If you want real falling dogs though I would go with the larger type that I have on my 044. Those are nice big doggies. They do not fit the stock 361 though; you have to grind the lower spikes some to get them to fit. The 361 has a different curve that the spikes fit into than the 440 does. You should do just fine with your 20 and 24/25 inch bar set. No such thing as stupid questions. Just stupid people that do not ask them.

19th March 2010, 03:22 PM	#50
windthrown Former Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: In the Great Pacific Northwest Posts: 1,211	Re: Stihl MS361 upgrades and options Here is a photo of the 361 with dual dogs, large side cover and 3/4 wrap. Attached Thumbnails

19th March 2010, 03:24 PM	#51
windthrown Former Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: In the Great Pacific Northwest Posts: 1,211	Re: Stihl MS361 upgrades and options Here is a photo of the 044 with the same setup but with the larger dogs: Attached Thumbnails

19th March 2010, 11:16 PM	#52
ciccio Sappling Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: new jersey Posts: 11	Re: Stihl MS361 upgrades and options Thank you very much for my answer, I'm sure i will have more questions down the road and happy there are people here willing to help. Thanks again Windthrown have a great weekend.. Ciccio

29th March 2010, 06:22 PM	#54
windthrown Former Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: In the Great Pacific Northwest Posts: 1,211	Re: Stihl MS361 upgrades and options I will have to call and find out what the prices for the kit are now (or if they are still available). Its been a while. Last I priced the 3/4-wrap/dual-roller-dog/scrench/large-side-cover kit here they were $140 USD. That was 2 years ago though. I would guess shipping to Denmark would be about $40 USD. That would be $180, plus $15 Paypal and packing costs, for a total of $195 USD, or €145 EUR at today's exchange rate of €1 = $1.3433.

31st March 2010, 06:03 AM	#56
windthrown Former Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: In the Great Pacific Northwest Posts: 1,211	Re: Stihl MS361 upgrades and options The cost for the 3/4 wrap upgrade kit is now $160 USD, so with shipping and paypal that would be $215 USD, or €160 EUR.

13th April 2010, 03:28 AM	#58
bipot Sappling Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 27	Re: Stihl MS361 upgrades and options New to forum and avid 361 owner and user. Use it for cutting blanks for woodturning. Interested in the 3/4 wrap conversion and dual dogs for the 361. In looking at the pictures, is there an added inconvenience when changing chains? It looks as though the dual dogs have to be removed to remove the cover. Is that true? I am not a full time user but do use it on an average basis. I do a lot of ripping for turning blanks and have missed not having dogs on the right side when doing that. I only have the 20" bar now but am planning on purchasing the 25" too. Would be interested to hear what you think I should do to convert the saw. Thanks.

13th April 2010, 07:54 AM	#59
windthrown Former Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: In the Great Pacific Northwest Posts: 1,211	Re: Stihl MS361 upgrades and options No inconvenience. The chain roller is on a pin that slots into the outer dog. The outer dog comes off with the side cover and the inner one stays put like on any Stihl saw. The kit comes with a new short scrench becasue the tall ones do not have the clearance to get past the 3/4 wrap to loosen the bar nuts.

13th April 2010, 08:44 AM	#60
bipot Sappling Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 27	Re: Stihl MS361 upgrades and options Thanks for your response windthrown. I missed that point when you reveiwed the part #'s earlier. In thinking about the 3/4 wrap, I do most of my work after the tree is felled. I am thinking that may inhibit my real need for that. Maybe I should get the 1135 6550 7750 dual dog and a new 25" bar instead. Right now, our fuel in this area is being furnished with 10% ethanol and the saws are running too lean. Has already burned up one or two in the club. I need to modify this 361 to avert those troubles. So, maybe that should be the first modification. Would be interested in your commenting in general on that as well. Thanks again.

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