Please school me !

GillesCR

Hi gents

Please forgive me this post will be long I need to be teached the basics to select the right tools for my task. I've been lurking around thses boards recently and it seems that's the best place to ask, many thanks to all by advance.

I'm having to do firewood since i've selected this as the main heating process for my countryside house wich turned this year to be primary residence. I have some dry wood from last years for this winter and the next, but i have to begin the " industry " on a regular basis.

Untill now i have a very limited experience with all things related, just had to cut one meter long wood in half with an electric Stihl chainsaw while during winter vacations it happened i helped a little in the forset the guy i was getting the firewood from, and used shortly the following machines : Stihl MS180, MS039 and another ( way ) bigger and older i can't recall the name.

I need to burn something like 40 stères ( 11 cords ) each winter, global task will consist of making four times that firewood quantity with a friend of mine wich is a farmer, mainly to cover both of our needs.

The less pain the job will be done will be the best, we planned to invest and fit his tractor with a machine to bundle firewood in .276 of a cord ( one metric cube or stère ) and a small crane to feed it, do light harvesting and move the finished bundles.

Wich chainsaws to get ? Considering i'm starting from none, the friend just have an old Shindaiwa 691 he wants to get rid of and upgrade ( he's been doing at least 20 cords a year just with it for the last ten years ).

For the next two years, we'll have to finish cleaning badly maintained woods that had to suffer a devastating tempest 12 years ago.
In those places, some trees are bigger, but majority of cuts will be smalls ( average base diameter of one big feet ) consisting of something like 70% chestnut then oaks, hornbeam and beech for 10% each.
Then there's a lot of smaller and a few biggest pieces ( three inches diameter ) long-dead wood to destroy to clean the place.

Following years and for long, we'll cut in regular forests with less chestnut and more oak, averaging two feet trunk diameter.


So wich chainsaws ? Sorry to bother you with the following and previous... but people around and particulary shop clerks weren't really helpfull. Out of the MS250 and MS039/390 they have few to say, chains are just chains... small market, habits leads, few interest for what's used/sold, you've got it.


My friend wants a do-it-all machine and he'll probably get an MS261.

I'm more on a lighter side even if only slightly but all day long... i plan an MS241CM ; to be teamed with an MS441CM for falling trees and cut largest trunks parts.

Considering the woods i told you, your thoughts please ?

There's many variables and other possibilities including radical changes i'm still thinking about, you would enlight me a lot about those questions i have please :


1 - I guess full chisel chains cuts better but worn out way faster than half chisel, right ? Would you go RMC3, RSC, or ?

2 - MS241 be sold with 3/8"Picco or .325.
I have a good " feeling " for the 3.8"Picco with new PS3 chain but it limits the bar to 16" as far as i know, i'd feel a 18" bar more balanced and suited ; but wouldn't an 18" bar and .325 chain ill suited for the output ? ( i know Stihll is pretty conservative on bar sizes and i'm myself on the light size for the saws but ? )

3 - Could an MS441 be converted to .325 and would it be technically wise ( i'm thinking of a possible chaining and sharpening tools commonality with the two saws ).
Again, .325 longer bar for the 441 would be 18" ??

4 - Any good aftermarket bar maker to recommend, just in case ? By the way, if i'd like to cut the bundles ( not that many in ayear and approximative diameter is 50" ) in two times, with a dedicated longer bar without changing the sprocket, if an extra lenghtened bar ( 25"+ ) supposedly exists, would the output and .325 chain allow this, gently done ? Or are 3/8" and a larger output are the only way to go ?

5 - would a very small and light saw just to cut the very lightest branches an interesting option ? Thinking of the regular handling MS192CE, or, are the T series top handed saws safe ?

6 - Any data on cut width changes for Stihll's chains from 3.8"P to .325 to .3/8" ?


In advance, many thanks for your inputs !

Zahny

I would recommend an Echo chainsaw. They have a good range of saws.

GillesCR

Hi Zahny !

Yep, i've been considering an Echo/Shindaiwa saw, been looking at the YB490s wich is 45cc, 2.3KW, 4.9 kilograms and the maker is advertising it for .325 chains and bars up to 20".

That said, i'm very interested with the full authority fuel injection of the Stihl's CM machines.

Since my first post, i found answers for some of my previous questions.

I'm planning on an single machine light enough for pruning and powerfull enough for falling, since i almost will encounter on feet or slightly larger trees this year - mainly chestnut and few oaks.
I could get another larger saw, say 441cm next year when we'll have to deal with bigger trees.

I've been seriously looking at a the Stihl 241CM as an ideal to my wish and beliefs with an 18" bar with full chisel chain, i guess.
Main concern is... i believe it is slightly on the light side, but good to go.... just wonder if im' right or if it's purely and simply underpowered.

I've been thinking and searched about it long and hard about, made numerous searcbut again i'm a beginner and fear at beeing mistaken.

GillesCR

Here i am again soliloquizing

I came across this video ( from Australia !! ).


OK, Like said by its poster, it is wonderfully balanced. I just handled it along a 261 in a shop but the 241 is so a pleasure holding it and seems so much lighter than the half-kilogram it has less than the MS261 ( similar bars ).

As said i'm looking after that saw for its lightest and tech bias for fuel injection, still my concern for the power. MS261 is doing 2800W according to the manufacturer, MS241 only 2200W, that's 25% less...

Tree in vid looks like pine, correct ? It is a rather soft wood, isn't it ? On a 1 to 10 scale, how would you rate its hardness/ease of cut coumpared to chestnut and oak ?

Helllllllllp please !

derwoodii

MS 025 with easy start 325 and 16inch bar my pick for you. This will be a good saw for your many needs to you get logging, as better your skills you may move up a notch in saw size.
What you need to measure is you own fitness and health for the task. 11 cords will kill or harm a man not in good physical condition. The cutting is the easy bit. The stacking spitting and logging will wear you down do get some family help share the wear. Consider some cut proof saw chaps with the purchase, you can not be the bread winner, on one leg.

Prend soin de toi même.

Zahny

I recommend the Echo CS-341 for small trees and climbing. And I recommend the CS-8000 for large trees and blocking.

GillesCR

Hi Zahny !

Sorry for the late answer, but i've been a bit busy last days.

I'm positively listening to you, but i do not think i"ll go such a way. IE : as said, i've been looking at the market's offer and within Yamabiko's group own range of brands, they advertise themselves as Echo for allround use and Shindaiwa as pro series so if i had to go the Japan way because of that and coumpared specs, i'd probably rather go with that last brand.

I've been searching deep in that forum for many many subjects, even if a global tendency is to favour Stihl, i wouldn't be reluctant at all buying a Yamabiko product ( i'm not snob ) but, big point there, while i believe Stihl products costs an arm in Oceania, here in Europe you may have them for a small handfull of more money than Yamabiko's, still Stihl weight/power ratios looks better ( to me, on paper ), so... should i hesitate ?

About the saw that would suit me the best... well things have changed lately because i'v been gifted with two pretty good enough saws so i'm no more in the urge but still looking for the more appropriate machine(s) for my needs.

That said, you and other reports made me considering a top handle saw for pruning, but i'm unsure about that design for safety ( fear they are so easy at hand they may call evil for using them in situations we shouldn't go with a chainsaw ? )

Cheers

GillesCR

Hi Derwoodi ! Thanks for the words ! I have to ask you important things about safety, lower part of my reply.

First I do have to congratulate you for your distinguished French language noticeable by properly not adding the plural mak to the singular's second person in the the imperative mode, which is a mistake almost 99% of the born french speakers do.


I can't follow, by far, such an excellence and have to ask forgiveness for my hurting English.

I guess MS025 is in the line of descent of the MS250/251 and their same power range ( 2.2 KW ) than the one i'm looking at, correct ? Thought the MS241 has slightly less displacement ( 3cc ), and i do not know how it dis-favor ( or not ) with torque ( also i had to read mixed opinions for stratos ? ).

Interistingly a pal wich is gardener/landscaper gave me nearly the same advice than yours ( MS250 ).

Yep, 16 inch bar sounds enough for my needs and the considered saws outputs, i've been thinking about an 18" cause my friend said it sometimes could be required but i believe it will be wiser to team two saws instead.

As said above, i've been gifted with used MS180 and MS039 so the need for a saw is no more an urge and i think i will go this winter's firewood campaign with them, or at last begin with, to add to my practical education.
I'll be back with my packs of dumb newbie questions !

Wait ! I have one right now !
Here, Stihl offers the class of saws we've been speaking about in both .325 and 3/8 Picco, at the buyer's preference, both max sixteen inch lenghtened.

Interestingly they do innovate this year with a full chisel 3/8 Picco chin.
Would i be mistaken to favour the 3.8P still chain retaining the sqared cutting profile effectivness as them being narrower i believe they should eat less power or am i : A) nitpicking B) ignoring an argument in favor for the .325 ?


Hear you.
I've been moving 20+ cords this spring from the woods to the house and stacking. I wasn't rushing but no sleeping over the task, had 8 days, took them all.
I'm neither weak nor tailored and healthy as a rugbyman but i can do it, as my friend who did such for decades but it is a fact it's not free for future problems for the the body and we're getting olders, not to speak for the time it takes ( and growing lazzyness ? ).
It costs the price of a small car but hell, other needs will wait... That's why we decided to invest in a fagotting machine and tractor mounted crane with winch to help us making firewood NOT a slavery, for the longest possible future.


Hear you again !
I'm on my way to order protective pants.
Of course i have.... questions !

I do guess most true chainsaws moves chains faster than 20mps, but is it really a concern ?

My main question beeing for the design. Is A design enough, or do i seriously have to go full wrap C design ? ( no climbing etc... ).


Very best regards !

Ranga

Chaps are a must and go the wrap. They do get a bit hot in summer but this is much better than the alternative.

As for the saw then Husqvarna 346XP with 325 chain is alsoworth looking at. It is a little more powerful than a MS241, more the MS261 class but a pleasure to use.


Steve

derwoodii

Merci sportif camarade, my son and daughter are learning French my other daughter is learning ughhh German Bon sang



These saws will serve you well, use em till they tomber mort then you will know more on what power and size saw next will suit your needs.

I am not a chain guru, I just buy and use whats at the Stihl shop. There are so many chain options, yet more often I fail to find any advantage over standard fitted chain. Stay away from low kick back thou as more often poor cutting.

I am told saw chain moves @ 100kph so that is 27m per sec ? Its a concern if it touches you.

Full wrap is better but what ever you get make sure they are fit for purpose comfortable and easy to wear... If not, you will avoid using them, then at your peril.

Ha tis some word fun (no offence implied) The word faggot for a bunch of sticks is often used as a slur or insult to gay or homosexual men down here, don't know why nor does Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(slang)

get cutting take care



Ah, I se a husky man has tipped in. Best not tease him, using nasty Husky saws more often makes em tough and mean.

GillesCR

Again, sorry for the late answer, busy week again. Thanks god it's friday.

Steve and Derwoodi thank you very much for your much appreciated inputs.

Lots of things since.


I managed to try some protective apparel while on a business travel i made a stop at a huge shop on my way.
I was torn between chaps and overall before. Found out that chaps were the best option ( not to mention a concern to be spoken later ) as you can put them on/off conveniently and with limited weight for C designs, but the clerk ( huge shop with a malority of customers beeing professionals ) told and i tend to agree so far that for working in such woods i'll have to, i need something helping carrying tools and easy with all the walkings i'll have to do, so i went for a A design overall from Oregon, the Waipoua model actually.
Clerk added i'd have to be dumb and careless to injury myself on the unprotected parts of the legs. Uh... time will say...

Oh.
Cliché. Your french speaking kids could enjoy reading litterature classics while sitting in a café front of the Louvre museum and order croissants using local language but ; your other daughter will be able to read in original texts philosophic and scientific geniuses, make money importing BMWs and Stihls, now there's the oktober fests side of the coin... Teufel.

Lord, my own daughter is half german




The two saws needs heavy servicing. Story short, they were given to me by a wifey's aunt. My understanding so far is that she wish i take better care for her diceased husband's saws than the nephew who conscientiously abused them so far.
Oil pumps and clutch are dead for both MS180 and 039 , plus chainbrake, pinion, guide, carburetor service and complete engine rebuild for that second. Yuk. I do also understand why the nephew didn't cared for me having the saws instead of him, when i gave him a call to know if it was a worry.

The bill is high, and while i plan to rebuild the saws, i again turned for the immediate buy for a new one. 346XP was considered, but I was made an offer i couldn't pass for a brand new MS261. Just had a mail, it should be at home tomorrow. Oh joy.


Thanks for the tip, i'm going with RSC chains.

I still want to believe the MS241 could have been powered enough given the fact that mounted with the new full chisel non safety chain in 3/8Picco cutting teeth are 1/10 narrower than with .325, then the links are longer so less numerousfor a given length, and it was to be 16" instead of 18".

Thought the 50cc saws might be perfect do-it-all but still can't get my eyes off the nimble 241... later maybe i will have to give it a try.
Time for a new addiction ?


OK ok, bundles

Speaking of that... one little concern i had against the chaps was the way such a protective equipment, how to say.... makes some part of the anatomy roundly exposed.
I wasn't feeling safe going the woods dressed that way, particulary after googleing all things lumberjacking i was to be reminded for things...






Besides Any tip for the upcoming new saw breaking in ? What about the spark arrestor, remove or let it ? Should i be confident with the default carburetor, iddle and max rev settings ?


Cheers

Glen Poulton

Sounds like your heading for dramas if your cleaning up. First you will need a twenty pound sledge hammer, shovel, crow bar and a two ton trolley jack. Then you should grab a tiny little plastic garden spade. The MS290 with 18" Oregon bar has been by far the best for me. You may need to around three chains that you should protect as if your life depends on it, but just keep it simple and use the same chains from the same dealer always. Dirt will be your problem and that is why you need to carry with you the aforementioned tools.

You've got a lot more to worry about, but that comes with doing it. No matter what you think is going to happen, you can be rest assured it won't.

GillesCR

Hi Gents !

Thanks Gleno

The woody part of the murphy laws, actually learning the hard way how they applies to newbie-me.

And you're right, three chains were not too much

To change my mind after i lost my Beagle doggy friend last monday i took a couple days off and went to the woods i had to litterally cut something to vent, better than hunting for the vet.
Sorry i digress.
Time for the news.

Yep, dirty woods. Can't go with trolley jack the ground is soft and uneven. Thought for a hi-lift with a large base plate, but seems lifting isn't that required in my case.
Actually i choose to go with a 6 lbs bursting maul for log splitting and knocking wedges, a big double bladed brush hook.
A spade and a long crow bar are ready in the car's trunk, but were not needed so far ; now i think i should add a hand winch to the kit, i guess it could be usefull and safe particulary to get to the ground half fallen dead trees before any furher work on them.

Just to give you an idea, a few cell phone pics.
Here is a view from the the woods i'll have to work in. This is a sample of a rather good situation, other places presents a big third of the trees dead and fallen, others offers more space between trees with deep brushes, some mixes...



Here is a pic of the first tree i fell at the owner's request at the edge of the parcel. See the brushes.




Beside the owner is a nice guy, he said the job in those woods isn't easy and he liked the way i manage to go for a beginner so he offered me to help him felling two big oaks standing in a field and keeping one's wood for me.

This allowed me to judge the MS261's appetite for wood. Here is a pic of one of those oaks, background is one begining corner of the wood i'll clean.



Just behind mine 261 is the guy's MS390. OK i know the 039/39X series are said to be gutless, but they are in the 64cc displacement range... its engine is a fresh rebuilt and chain ( 22", 3/8 oregon half chisel ) brand new from the day. My 261's breaking in isn't achieved as she had only four gas tanks through it, she has an advantage with chain agressivity ( 18" .325 full chisel RSC chain).
I couldn't believe it, she just badly outcuted the MS390 !

She went trough these not like butter, but still the easy way.




Cheers !

GillesCR

Hi Gents !

I've been so damn annoying at soliloquizing about what chainsaw to get and dumb questions about this and that, now that i'm working one i fear or feel i have to keep beeing annoying a bit at soliloquizing with feedback and dumb considerations about things


Miss MS261 just went through a hard day :-



Old oak almost dying, lost in huge impenetrable bramble bush.
The saw with its 18" bar is doing 90 centimeters exactly. This is not the biggest part of the oak, the head's diameter is 120 centimeters. Dealing that heavy part more than twice larger than the bar length had been... weird

Now such a big ass of a tree is the exception in places i work in. Most won't be bigger than 16".
I originally planned to grab both a nimble MS241CM and a big hearted 441CM, I can't help myself and stop thinking i should have went this way ( but the MS241 in .325, not with the new 3/8"Picco full chisel chain as i once believed ).

Anyway I am by no mean disapointed with the MS261 and how she managed to go through hard wood like the SOB pictured above is amazing, with this bar and full squared chisel chain she had no rev loss, she just ate wood consistently, like she was calling, nope, yelling for bigger bar and chain.

I was given to read/see over the internet people using 20+ bar with 3/8 chains, first thought it was inappropriate... on a regular basis maybe still but now i feel i could give a try to a " heavy duty " set of 3/8 pinion and long bar and chain just in case.

I guess i'll have a try and speaking of chainy things... i first choose to try RSC full chisel for agressivity even if heard there and there that full chisel lasted less and were harder to sharpen than half chisel.
I just bought and had a try with a RMC ( half chisel ) chain, i couldn't notice significative difference in those departments so i believe i'm sold with full chisel chains.

Along that i ordered a full 3/8" RMC chain for a pal, and i could measure with a caliper on fresh factory, same design, the cutting devices dimensions for .325" and 3/8". There is little difference ( one tenth of a millimeter wich makes less than 3% larger only ), while for height in any case the space from depth limiter to dent has to be set at the same .65 of a millimeter value. Of course the chain is heavier, but less links to drive.

Besides I serviced the MS180 myself and now routinely use it, while its main advantage is to be light on fuel with time consuming activities like clearing worplaces and saving the 261's chain, it isn't as weak as expected and revealed to be very usefull for pruning, and dealing with larger pieces of wood i originally thought.

Unfortunately it is the CB variant, heavier with the ergostart and wheel chain adjust i don't have a clue for.
I was given to work along a guy using a less than a year old MS260, exact same engine displacement, we had to see the 261 is easier on fuel and a bit torquier, so now i'm unsure if the badmouthing about stratified saws is that founded or interested with minds and changes.
Well, i'm considering trading the MS180 for a brand new 181.

Did i say i can't get the M241/MS441 duetto out of my mind ? I have to cool down


That said, i have done almost 4 cords so far with the 261, used 10 fuel tanks.
I was running the saw with 3% of red ( mineral ) Stihl oil, thinking to switch to the recommended 2% now that the breaking in is done.
The dealer who sold me the saw said it wasn't usefull to go half or fully synthetic oil... i was skeptical and still have second thoughts, but the guy is selling each year ( and servicing ) hundreds of saws to professional lumberjacks... don't know what to think, and my experience with 2 stroke motorcycle engine gave mixed results...
What would you recommend ?
I avoided high revs but had to go full charge sometimes, i wonder if i mistreated the engine in terms of full power delivery and longevity ?
I was also told the more the oil, the hotter the engine will get. Is it ?


Cheers !

derwoodii

je suis désolé been awhile but heres some help for your Q semi vs full chisel as I said I'm no saw chain guru but this bloke has done some work for you


The semi-chisel was timed at the below:
14.5 seconds
15 seconds

The chisel was timed at the below:
15.5 seconds
15 seconds

So as I mentioned before all the fuss about saw chain types really don't add up to much.
Bravo! Bien fait! with your cutting and wood pile, bat on..

Brent Ferris

Personally, I would stay away from the synthetic oil. I used to run Husky's with synthetic oil, and they were always in the shop. I now run all Stihls with regular mix oil (from dealer) and I only see the dealer 1-2x per year for servicing. The saws run better, with few to no problems. I still have a large Husky (seldom used), and it runs a lot better on regular oil . I run all of the saws 40:1 . Motorcycle oil might seem like a bargain, but when you invest in a Stihl, It can last a lot of years (my 020's are over 20) -- why go cheap on oil -- it can make or break your saw.

The saws all run hot. Before this, I have cut large trees on hot days, and have the gas boil in the tank as filling it up, and cut again. Sometimes as long as 4-5 hours. They can take more than me.

Like Derwoodii, I don't much worry about the kind the chain - semi chisel or chisel - I take what the dealer recommends given the conditions I want it for. He knows more than me; I take his advice.

I agree with most of the other advice here. Be careful, keep a mind for what could happen, and when you're tired, you're further ahead to come back the next day. When you're really fatigued, accidents happen faster.

__________________
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