new saw chain binding

woodmiller · 2nd October 2009, 12:12 AM

Was running a new chain on a Stihl T192, cutting green timber (peppermint gum) with very little gum in the wood, but when I was cleaning up the saw and chain at the end, several links had almost seized at the rivets

. I had used the standard Stihl bar oil, the oiler was working, and there appeared to be no sticky residue on the chain.

I placed the offending chain in a light oil overnight, then worked the links and rivets the next day until they loosened up....took a while to achieve this. Have used the chain again without any issues.

Have never experienced this with a new chain before.

Has anyone else had a similar problem with a seemingly "normal" new chain?

Bruce Hopf · 2nd October 2009, 04:20 PM

I haven't had the pleasure of working with gum trees. I have Maple, and Ash trees over here in Canada. What I do with my new chains, is I put them in Bar Oil for an hour, or two. If I don't need them, I just let them soak.
Once I'm ready to put on the chain saw, I hang them up on a nail, with a plastic tub on the floor, underneath the chain, so the excess oil can drip off, prior to putting on the chain saw.
The oil that is on a new chain, is to prevent it from rusting, not for lubrication. I have gone through some of my chain saw manuals, that I have with my chainsaws, that were built in 1967, and another built in 1968, and they recommend, placing a new chain in bar oil, or light oil, before installing on the chain saw. That way, it has a little more lubrication, prior to cutting with the chain. Bruce.

Therrin · 2nd October 2009, 04:55 PM

I clean my chains in a bucket of #2 diesel fuel before lubing them with chain oil. The diesel has detergent additives that do really good at breaking down any gunk in the chains, or the stuff like Bruce said that's on them from the factory.

Usually soak and then brush them with diesel really good, then soak them in bar oil and drip dry (like bruce). Seems to work really well for me.

Even on some older chains that I had out in the shed, that had gotten a little rusty, the diesel soaking does a good job at removing the rust and freeing the links back up.

treelinx · 2nd October 2009, 08:25 PM

I'm going to set the cat amongst the pidgeons here, but here goes.
We as a tree contracting firm have been using vegetable oil (canola) for our chain and bar lubricant for close on two years.
In that time we have had no issues with binding, or any sign of increased bar wear.
One of the advantages, especially in suburban areas, is that the vegie oil breaks down very quickly and does not seem to affect the surrounding gardens and plants so dramatically. Caution is still required around fish and frog ponds as the oil can still inhibit oxygen transference, but really we've not experienced any noticable problems.
Oh, and the most important thing is that it is a hell of a lot cheaper!

Therrin · 2nd October 2009, 09:59 PM

Cheaper yes, but it has no tackifiers!! nothin engineered to make it hold TO the blade/chain when they're running hot, and stay down in where all the little working parts move. Heat some some veggie oil and it just wants to ZING! right off the end of the bar.

That's why bar/chain oil uses tachyfiers. Makes it stick to what it needs to stick to.

Bruce Hopf · 3rd October 2009, 05:00 AM

I agree with Therrin, 110% I sold some tree tops last year, to my cousin. I trimmed them, and I skidded them out of the bush, out into one of our Fields.
He had a friend, that helped him cut up the tree tops, and that is what he used, was vegetable oil. After he was cutting for a while, and had to refill his chain saw, that bar was that hot, that you couldn't touch it with your Bare Hand.

.
I have been running chain saws for almost 30 years, and in that 30 years, I have never seen anything like that at all, using bar, and chain oil. Sure it was hot, but you could hold onto of the bar with your bare hand.
Sure I agree that vegetable oil, is a whole lot cheaper, than chain, and bar oil, but which is cheaper in the long run, using bar oil, or replacing the bar. I have a chain saw here, that has been in the family, since 1968 (41 years), and another one that was bought in 1974 (35 years), both using the original bar. On both bars, the sprocket nose has been replaced, and they both have cut one heck of a lot of fire wood.
I'd like to see a bar using vegetable oil, last that long. I'm not telling you what to do here. I'm only saying what I wouldn't do, or use, if I were you.
It is your equipment, and you are the one that has to make that decision, which is cheaper for you in the long run, for yourself, and your business. Bruce.

rick · 3rd October 2009, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Therrin

Cheaper yes, but it has no tackifiers!! nothin engineered to make it hold TO the blade/chain when they're running hot, and stay down in where all the little working parts move. Heat some some veggie oil and it just wants to ZING! right off the end of the bar.

That's why bar/chain oil uses tachyfiers. Makes it stick to what it needs to stick to.

I've discussed this issue with a couple of Tribologists (oil blenders) and they reckon the role of tackifiers is over emphasised in saw chains, with most oils having far more than necessary for good lubrication.
They tend to think it's a marketing thing "look, stickier than XYZ blend !" rather than a practical benefit.
Yes, some tackifier is nice, but probably no where near what most blenders use.

High Oleic acid Canola in particular, not vegie oil (which is a blend of anything that grows) has a naturally much higher VI (viscosity index) than conventional mineral oils which means it is much more stable and it thins less with heat than your average mineral oils. Mineral oils even need a dash of VII's (viscosity index improvers) added, which are basically polymers that need to be added to 'stabilise' the oil as the oils used for bar oil are the most basic, Group I barely refined bases.
Canola's VI is well over 200 and very, very few synthetic oils can even come close to that, mineral oils usually used as bar lubes are lucky to be around 100.
They also have little in the way of extreme pressure or anti-wear additives either.

Canola is an ester, which is incredibly stable and highly lubricious. It has very good film strength and is very stable at high temperature.
The only thing that I'd add is some EP/AW component in small amounts. There is an off the shelf additive that Lubrizol, the company that supplies most of the worlds oil companies with additives makes that I'd add, just to CMA. This additive is supposed to be used at a rate of 18-20%/volume. It's a tackifier/EP/AW blend specifically for canola and sunflower oils and the oil retains around 90-95% biodegradability with lubrication qualities exceeding any mineral oils from the specs I've seen.

I've looked at buying bulk Canola and blending my own bio blend for sale, but there just isn't a market here yet, unlike Europe which mandates bio blends for use on public forestry lands.

Canola's good stuff, unfortunately here, where millions of tonnes of the stuff is grown, it's around the same price or even exxier than mineral bar oils wholesale ATM, and bar oils are much more exxy than what you pay in NA, so go figure......

Link to a discussion on an oil board instigated by moi here

rick · 3rd October 2009, 09:15 AM

BTW, there was a huge thread on AS some time back on using Canola, and some loggers had been using it for upwards of seven years without an issue, claiming comparable or better bar and chain life to when using mineral oil blends.

The advantages they claimed to using Canola were.

Cost
Biodegradability
less crap over chaps/clothes
wear

disadvantages
some claim that it may oxidise and thicken in the pump outlet tube if left for any great length of time, but talking to the experts they'd reckon you'd need to leave it for well over twelve months unused before this could happen.
Interestingly the saw manufacturers recommend flushing the pump with some convention SAE30 oil if leaving the saw sit for more than a month or two when using biodegradable lubes.

Willard Holmen · 3rd October 2009, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodmiller

Was running a new chain on a Stihl T192, cutting green timber (peppermint gum) with very little gum in the wood, but when I was cleaning up the saw and chain at the end, several links had almost seized at the rivets

. I had used the standard Stihl bar oil, the oiler was working, and there appeared to be no sticky residue on the chain.

I placed the offending chain in a light oil overnight, then worked the links and rivets the next day until they loosened up....took a while to achieve this. Have used the chain again without any issues.

Have never experienced this with a new chain before.

Has anyone else had a similar problem with a seemingly "normal" new chain?

Your running a Stihl 192T so its got to be running a Stihl 61PMN "mini" .043 gauge chain which is about all that little saw can handle. If your drive sprocket or bar tip sprocket is worn past the limit then that little chain will "kink" fast. Check your 2 sprockets for excessive wear and that might be your problem. Also break that little chain in gently when new, cut a few limbs to loosen it up and then keep the tension at the proper tightness.
Quality of chainoil only becomes evident if the chainsaw is forced to cut with a dull, poorly maintained chain or cutting in extreme temperatures.

Bruce Hopf · 3rd October 2009, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick

I've discussed this issue with a couple of Tribologists (oil blenders) and they reckon the role of tackifiers is over emphasised in saw chains, with most oils having far more than necessary for good lubrication.
They tend to think it's a marketing thing "look, stickier than XYZ blend !" rather than a practical benefit.
Yes, some tackifier is nice, but probably no where near what most blenders use.

High Oleic acid Canola in particular, not vegie oil (which is a blend of anything that grows) has a naturally much higher VI (viscosity index) than conventional mineral oils which means it is much more stable and it thins less with heat than your average mineral oils. Mineral oils even need a dash of VII's (viscosity index improvers) added, which are basically polymers that need to be added to 'stabilise' the oil as the oils used for bar oil are the most basic, Group I barely refined bases.
Canola's VI is well over 200 and very, very few synthetic oils can even come close to that, mineral oils usually used as bar lubes are lucky to be around 100.
They also have little in the way of extreme pressure or anti-wear additives either.

Canola is an ester, which is incredibly stable and highly lubricious. It has very good film strength and is very stable at high temperature.
The only thing that I'd add is some EP/AW component in small amounts. There is an off the shelf additive that Lubrizol, the company that supplies most of the worlds oil companies with additives makes that I'd add, just to CMA. This additive is supposed to be used at a rate of 18-20%/volume. It's a tackifier/EP/AW blend specifically for canola and sunflower oils and the oil retains around 90-95% biodegradability with lubrication qualities exceeding any mineral oils from the specs I've seen.

I've looked at buying bulk Canola and blending my own bio blend for sale, but there just isn't a market here yet, unlike Europe which mandates bio blends for use on public forestry lands.

Canola's good stuff, unfortunately here, where millions of tonnes of the stuff is grown, it's around the same price or even exxier than mineral bar oils wholesale ATM, and bar oils are much more exxy than what you pay in NA, so go figure......

Link to a discussion on an oil board instigated by moi here

One thing I did notice on this website, that you mentioned, is that over time they say it will oxidize metal, if I understand this correctly. If so, what is it going to do to the bearings of the sprocket nose, of the bar? Bruce.

rick · 3rd October 2009, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Hopf

One thing I did notice on this website, that you mentioned, is that over time they say it will oxidize metal, if I understand this correctly. If so, what is it going to do to the bearings of the sprocket nose, of the bar? Bruce.

No, the oil oxidises and thickens, it doesn't oxidise steel.

woodmiller · 4th October 2009, 01:11 AM

Thanks to everyone who replied to this thread...particularly interesting the discussion re the different oils.

Bruce Hopf · 4th October 2009, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick

No, the oil oxidises and thickens, it doesn't oxidise steel.

I'm not trying to cause an argument, but trying to get better knowledge of the different oils. Now if the oil will thicken, and oxidize in the tank of the a chain saw, if left too long, what will happen to it in the jug, once it has been opened?
Now if a person uses, lets say 1/2, to 3/4 parts of a one gallon jug of canola oil, a year, will it keep around for the next year, or will it be no good? Thanks. Bruce.

rick · 4th October 2009, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Hopf

I'm not trying to cause an argument, but trying to get better knowledge of the different oils. Now if the oil will thicken, and oxidize in the tank of the a chain saw, if left too long, what will happen to it in the jug, once it has been opened?
Now if a person uses, lets say 1/2, to 3/4 parts of a one gallon jug of canola oil, a year, will it keep around for the next year, or will it be no good? Thanks. Bruce.

I have no idea Bruce, but the oil seed producers reckon its good for at least twelve months.
Back on the thread on AS the fellas that had left it reckoned the oil in the tank stayed OK, and most had no problems at all.

rustyb from the AS thread
"A few people have commented on this yet I have not experienced this at all.

A couple of my saws only see use once or twice a year...and I never drain the oil or do anything else special. When I pull these saws out from a long hiatus, I do some times notice a "stickieness" between the bar and chain. However, this completely disappears as soon as the saw is used and the oiler gets some fresh oil out.

Perhaps some veggie oils can cause problems, I don't know. 90% of the time, I have used straight canola oil with only natural preservatives or no preservatives at all. The other 10% of the time, I used corn, soy and perhaps another type...with natural preservatives or no preservatives at all. My experience is 4 years with four completely different saws."

Bruce Hopf · 4th October 2009, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick

I've discussed this issue with a couple of Tribologists (oil blenders) and they reckon the role of tackifiers is over emphasised in saw chains, with most oils having far more than necessary for good lubrication.
They tend to think it's a marketing thing "look, stickier than XYZ blend !" rather than a practical benefit.
Yes, some tackifier is nice, but probably no where near what most blenders use.

High Oleic acid Canola in particular, not vegie oil (which is a blend of anything that grows) has a naturally much higher VI (viscosity index) than conventional mineral oils which means it is much more stable and it thins less with heat than your average mineral oils. Mineral oils even need a dash of VII's (viscosity index improvers) added, which are basically polymers that need to be added to 'stabilise' the oil as the oils used for bar oil are the most basic, Group I barely refined bases.
Canola's VI is well over 200 and very, very few synthetic oils can even come close to that, mineral oils usually used as bar lubes are lucky to be around 100.
They also have little in the way of extreme pressure or anti-wear additives either.

Canola is an ester, which is incredibly stable and highly lubricious. It has very good film strength and is very stable at high temperature.
The only thing that I'd add is some EP/AW component in small amounts. There is an off the shelf additive that Lubrizol, the company that supplies most of the worlds oil companies with additives makes that I'd add, just to CMA. This additive is supposed to be used at a rate of 18-20%/volume. It's a tackifier/EP/AW blend specifically for canola and sunflower oils and the oil retains around 90-95% biodegradability with lubrication qualities exceeding any mineral oils from the specs I've seen.

I've looked at buying bulk Canola and blending my own bio blend for sale, but there just isn't a market here yet, unlike Europe which mandates bio blends for use on public forestry lands.

Canola's good stuff, unfortunately here, where millions of tonnes of the stuff is grown, it's around the same price or even exxier than mineral bar oils wholesale ATM, and bar oils are much more exxy than what you pay in NA, so go figure......

Link to a discussion on an oil board instigated by moi here

OK, another question, this Lubrizal additive that you are talking about, is it just over there in Oz, or can it be picked up around the world. Last year, when the prices of bar oil jumped, from $6.99 for 3.78 L, to $8.99 for the same 3.78L, I almost cleared the shelf, both in heavy, and light oil. 12 jugs of each, so I'll have lots to last me for a while,

I checked the other day, and it was $9.99, but will be jumping to $10.99, soon.
Now I was thinking, that I would give the Canola oil a try, and if works out OK, I will try and sell some of it, but that depends on the price I can get it for as well.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you said 18% to 20% mixture of additive, that would be 80 ml, to 4 L of Canola oil. Thanks again. Bruce.

rick · 7th October 2009, 09:31 AM

Bruce, Lubrizol are a US based multinational, possibly the biggest company of their type in the world. Just google for contact details in Canada.

The additive for canola/sunflower oil is 7662 at 18-20% treat, but I have no idea what their minimum buy quantities are.
All the fella's on AS were using canola straight.

BTW, for us here in Oz oil/petrol prices should b dropping soon.

2nd October 2009, 12:12 AM	#1
woodmiller Sappling Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Mt Macedon, Vic Posts: 33	new saw chain binding Was running a new chain on a Stihl T192, cutting green timber (peppermint gum) with very little gum in the wood, but when I was cleaning up the saw and chain at the end, several links had almost seized at the rivets . I had used the standard Stihl bar oil, the oiler was working, and there appeared to be no sticky residue on the chain. I placed the offending chain in a light oil overnight, then worked the links and rivets the next day until they loosened up....took a while to achieve this. Have used the chain again without any issues. Have never experienced this with a new chain before. Has anyone else had a similar problem with a seemingly "normal" new chain?

2nd October 2009, 04:55 PM	#3
Therrin Former Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Bakersfield, Ca Posts: 2,512	Re: new saw chain binding I clean my chains in a bucket of #2 diesel fuel before lubing them with chain oil. The diesel has detergent additives that do really good at breaking down any gunk in the chains, or the stuff like Bruce said that's on them from the factory. Usually soak and then brush them with diesel really good, then soak them in bar oil and drip dry (like bruce). Seems to work really well for me. Even on some older chains that I had out in the shed, that had gotten a little rusty, the diesel soaking does a good job at removing the rust and freeing the links back up.

2nd October 2009, 08:25 PM	#4
treelinx Sappling Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 26	Re: new saw chain binding I'm going to set the cat amongst the pidgeons here, but here goes. We as a tree contracting firm have been using vegetable oil (canola) for our chain and bar lubricant for close on two years. In that time we have had no issues with binding, or any sign of increased bar wear. One of the advantages, especially in suburban areas, is that the vegie oil breaks down very quickly and does not seem to affect the surrounding gardens and plants so dramatically. Caution is still required around fish and frog ponds as the oil can still inhibit oxygen transference, but really we've not experienced any noticable problems. Oh, and the most important thing is that it is a hell of a lot cheaper! Last edited by treelinx; 2nd October 2009 at 08:26 PM. Reason: more words, so few fingers, so many words

2nd October 2009, 09:59 PM	#5
Therrin Former Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Bakersfield, Ca Posts: 2,512	Re: new saw chain binding Cheaper yes, but it has no tackifiers!! nothin engineered to make it hold TO the blade/chain when they're running hot, and stay down in where all the little working parts move. Heat some some veggie oil and it just wants to ZING! right off the end of the bar. That's why bar/chain oil uses tachyfiers. Makes it stick to what it needs to stick to.

3rd October 2009, 05:00 AM	#6
Bruce Hopf Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: North of Sebringville, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,176	Re: new saw chain binding I agree with Therrin, 110% I sold some tree tops last year, to my cousin. I trimmed them, and I skidded them out of the bush, out into one of our Fields. He had a friend, that helped him cut up the tree tops, and that is what he used, was vegetable oil. After he was cutting for a while, and had to refill his chain saw, that bar was that hot, that you couldn't touch it with your Bare Hand. . I have been running chain saws for almost 30 years, and in that 30 years, I have never seen anything like that at all, using bar, and chain oil. Sure it was hot, but you could hold onto of the bar with your bare hand. Sure I agree that vegetable oil, is a whole lot cheaper, than chain, and bar oil, but which is cheaper in the long run, using bar oil, or replacing the bar. I have a chain saw here, that has been in the family, since 1968 (41 years), and another one that was bought in 1974 (35 years), both using the original bar. On both bars, the sprocket nose has been replaced, and they both have cut one heck of a lot of fire wood. I'd like to see a bar using vegetable oil, last that long. I'm not telling you what to do here. I'm only saying what I wouldn't do, or use, if I were you. It is your equipment, and you are the one that has to make that decision, which is cheaper for you in the long run, for yourself, and your business. Bruce. __________________ McCulloch chain saws 1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's, 2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener, 1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver 2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10 Stihl chain saws 2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084, Strunk chain saws 1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

2nd October 2009, 04:20 PM	#2
Bruce Hopf Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: North of Sebringville, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,176	Re: new saw chain binding I haven't had the pleasure of working with gum trees. I have Maple, and Ash trees over here in Canada. What I do with my new chains, is I put them in Bar Oil for an hour, or two. If I don't need them, I just let them soak. Once I'm ready to put on the chain saw, I hang them up on a nail, with a plastic tub on the floor, underneath the chain, so the excess oil can drip off, prior to putting on the chain saw. The oil that is on a new chain, is to prevent it from rusting, not for lubrication. I have gone through some of my chain saw manuals, that I have with my chainsaws, that were built in 1967, and another built in 1968, and they recommend, placing a new chain in bar oil, or light oil, before installing on the chain saw. That way, it has a little more lubrication, prior to cutting with the chain. Bruce. __________________ McCulloch chain saws 1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's, 2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener, 1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver 2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10 Stihl chain saws 2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084, Strunk chain saws 1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

3rd October 2009, 09:15 AM	#8
rick Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: A little old farmhouse..... Posts: 165	Re: new saw chain binding BTW, there was a huge thread on AS some time back on using Canola, and some loggers had been using it for upwards of seven years without an issue, claiming comparable or better bar and chain life to when using mineral oil blends. The advantages they claimed to using Canola were. Cost Biodegradability less crap over chaps/clothes wear disadvantages some claim that it may oxidise and thicken in the pump outlet tube if left for any great length of time, but talking to the experts they'd reckon you'd need to leave it for well over twelve months unused before this could happen. Interestingly the saw manufacturers recommend flushing the pump with some convention SAE30 oil if leaving the saw sit for more than a month or two when using biodegradable lubes.

4th October 2009, 01:11 AM	#12
woodmiller Sappling Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Mt Macedon, Vic Posts: 33	Re: new saw chain binding Thanks to everyone who replied to this thread...particularly interesting the discussion re the different oils.

7th October 2009, 09:31 AM	#16
rick Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: A little old farmhouse..... Posts: 165	Re: new saw chain binding Bruce, Lubrizol are a US based multinational, possibly the biggest company of their type in the world. Just google for contact details in Canada. The additive for canola/sunflower oil is 7662 at 18-20% treat, but I have no idea what their minimum buy quantities are. All the fella's on AS were using canola straight. BTW, for us here in Oz oil/petrol prices should b dropping soon.

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