MS 460 Binding?

Scaryfast · 15th March 2009, 06:23 AM

Here's a question for experienced loggers. I'm certainly not a pro, but I've cut over 100 trees in my day and I have several saws including a bigger 660. On my 460, I have a Scotts muffler mod (same on my 660 and 036) and a set
(2) of sharp aftermarket felling dawgs, same as I do on the 660. When I'm felling a tree with this 460, the chain stalls as soon as I touch the tree with the dogs. If I keep the dawgs back away from the tree, the saw cuts great, but just touch the tree with dawgs, bam, chain stalls. Is it me? I had an 8 tooth sprocket for a while and went back to the 7 tooth, no difference. The carb seems tuned well and plug color looks good. All my other saws don't do this. This 460 saw has always done this, what gives? BTW, when the tree is down and I'm bucking the tree, the dawgs do NOT stall the chain!

newguy18 · 15th March 2009, 09:08 AM

I assume your running at full throttle when you "dawg up"?Your suppose to anchor the saw with the dawgs,then throttle up,try that.

Eric Frei · 15th March 2009, 11:13 PM

I'd have to see this live or a close up video, sure sounds fishy to me.

Scaryfast · 16th March 2009, 12:56 AM

I don't have a way to video it, all I can say is it's done it since the saw was new, so that means several chains, new and resharpened. As soon as I bought the saw, I did the 8 tooth sprocket, installed the two aftermarket dawgs and installed the Scotts muffler mod. Currently, I've gone back to the 7 tooth, but it made no difference. It also doesn't make difference if I'm just starting the felling cut or am burried in the log. As soon as I allow the dawgs to touch the tree, the chain stops. As soon as I pull the dawgs away from the tree, the saw rips right through the tree. You can tell the chain is stuck when it stops, you need the really jerk it loose when it happens. The chain will not cut or even turn one revolution as long as the dawgs are in the tree. Like I said though, when I buck the logs, no problems at all with the chain binding, I can put the dawgs right in. WTF?

(WLL) · 16th March 2009, 09:40 AM

maby your clutch is bad

Eric Frei · 16th March 2009, 10:18 AM

So it only does this when the dawgs are buried and the saw is in a horizontal position?

You said cutting up with saw in a vertical postion it doesn't happen, is that right?

(WLL) · 16th March 2009, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

So it only does this when the dawgs are buried and the saw is in a horizontal position?

You said cutting up with saw in a vertical postion it doesn't happen, is that right?

what t hell

Scaryfast · 16th March 2009, 10:44 AM

Yes, only when I'm cutting a tree down. As soon as the dawgs touch the tree, the saw grabs the tree and buries the dawgs which instantly stop the chain. These dawgs are aftermarket, big and sharp. The clutch? Well, the saw is new or was new, and it's done it from the very first tree.

Eric Frei · 16th March 2009, 10:49 AM

Two wild hunches.

1/ Dawgs are loose allowing saw to move putting side pressure on chain, also possible not inline with chain. Also check bar is straight, bolted up flush and not twisted.

2/ Thick washer not inserted between drive rim and circlip allowing chain to bind.

Just check these things, it's got to do with the weight of the saw on the horizontal axis as problem doesn't occur in vertical axis use.

Therrin · 16th March 2009, 02:14 PM

Does it have the same problem with stock dawgs?

palogger · 27th September 2009, 10:51 AM

the rakers or depth guages may be to low, i have the same problem once in a while and its usaully cause i have taken to much off the rakers when i file them

olyman · 27th September 2009, 12:50 PM

me thnks ekka has it--i to believe the bar is bent--just ahead of the saw, and when the dogs hit, its twisted and binding--

stirmantrees · 27th September 2009, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Therrin

Does it have the same problem with stock dawgs?

and what size bar r you using? maybe to big.
those big dawgs can really cause it to leverage, especially on its side with no saw head balancing it.

i hope scaryfast still checks this. its been quite a few months.

Scaryfast · 29th September 2009, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stirmantrees

and what size bar r you using? maybe to big.
those big dawgs can really cause it to leverage, especially on its side with no saw head balancing it.

i hope scaryfast still checks this. its been quite a few months.

It's just a 25 inch bar. I've flipped the bar over it didn't help. I also removed one of the oversized dawgs, that didn't help either. Pretty frustrating to tell you the truth. Here I've got this powerful saw and because it binds so bad I'd rather use my littlel 260 to cut down trees, it does get stuck a thousand times!

Scaryfast · 29th September 2009, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Two wild hunches.

1/ Dawgs are loose allowing saw to move putting side pressure on chain, also possible not inline with chain. Also check bar is straight, bolted up flush and not twisted.

2/ Thick washer not inserted between drive rim and circlip allowing chain to bind.

Just check these things, it's got to do with the weight of the saw on the horizontal axis as problem doesn't occur in vertical axis use.

Tell me where this washer is? It's on the drive gear? Oh, I tried that last time I used the saw, I swiched back to the stock 7 tooth from the 8 tooth I was using, didn't help. I can't picture a washer there though?

Bruce Hopf · 1st October 2009, 03:07 PM

(#1) Is the chain A Stihl, Carlton, Windsor, or Oregon chain?
(#2) Is it new, or has it been used a bit?
(#3) Has the Raker's been ground, or filed down? It could be the chain.
(#4) When you cut with the dawgs away from the tree, does the saw feel as if it is going to pull itself away, out of your hands?
If the answer to #4 is yes, than your raker's are filed, or ground a little too low.
I have had, and now have again, the same thing happen with my 044, with a new Stihl chain, even with the felling dawgs away from the tree. I asked my dealer about it, and he told me, that new Stihl chains, has a little more height to the top plate of cutter, above the raker, than other saw chain manufactures, like Carlton, Oregon, and Windsor, and the list goes on.
He also told me, after a few sharpenings, that the problem will go away, and after a few sharpenings, I had no troubles after that, runnig the Stihl Chain.
I also compared a new Stihl chain, to a new Carlton chain, I didn't have any troubles with the new Carlton chain, like I did with the new Stihl chain.
Another thing to remember, is when you file, or grind down your raker's, have them filed, or ground down to about 0.020" to 0.025", from the top of the top plate of the cutter, or you will be back to square one again.
I have ground down my raker's, a little more than 0.030", and I have that problem, all over again. I can't wait till I get a few more sharpenings on these chains, that I ground the raker's down on. A handful to hold onto. Hope this helps a bit. Bruce.

Scaryfast · 2nd October 2009, 01:12 AM

Stihl chain, used and yes I file my own chains, have for years. Yes the saw DOES pull itself forward a lot. You know, now that's I'm talking about this, I remember a guy that works for me sharpening this chain a couple times when I wasn't around. I'm going to go home tonight and measure the rakers, you may be on to something here. I just assumed the saw was pulling forward because it was such a BA saw. HA! Thanks Bruce!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Hopf

(#1) Is the chain A Stihl, Carlton, Windsor, or Oregon chain?
(#2) Is it new, or has it been used a bit?
(#3) Has the Raker's been ground, or filed down? It could be the chain.
(#4) When you cut with the dawgs away from the tree, does the saw feel as if it is going to pull itself away, out of your hands?
If the answer to #4 is yes, than your raker's are filed, or ground a little too low.
I have had, and now have again, the same thing happen with my 044, with a new Stihl chain, even with the felling dawgs away from the tree. I asked my dealer about it, and he told me, that new Stihl chains, has a little more height to the top plate of cutter, above the raker, than other saw chain manufactures, like Carlton, Oregon, and Windsor, and the list goes on.
He also told me, after a few sharpenings, that the problem will go away, and after a few sharpenings, I had no troubles after that, runnig the Stihl Chain.
I also compared a new Stihl chain, to a new Carlton chain, I didn't have any troubles with the new Carlton chain, like I did with the new Stihl chain.
Another thing to remember, is when you file, or grind down your raker's, have them filed, or ground down to about 0.020" to 0.025", from the top of the top plate of the cutter, or you will be back to square one again.
I have ground down my raker's, a little more than 0.030", and I have that problem, all over again. I can't wait till I get a few more sharpenings on these chains, that I ground the raker's down on. A handful to hold onto. Hope this helps a bit. Bruce.

stirmantrees · 2nd October 2009, 03:29 AM

if bruce or paloger arent right you may have gremlins.

the rakers have got to be the problem. if so you have to keep filing the teeth down or get a new chain.
be careful. filed rakers make for one bronco of a ride.

Willard Holmen · 4th October 2009, 03:33 PM

I say its just inexperience in the felling cuts. Even myself when I dog in while felling I can easily stall the chain if I'm a little too aggressive. When I'm bucking I have far better control of the saw's feed pressure while using the dogs. In the felling position the operator is hunched over with alot less control of the saw. Plus felling also means your cutting the largest and toughest part of the tree.
Willard.

Bruce Hopf · 4th October 2009, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolmenTree

I say its just inexperience in the felling cuts. Even myself when I dog in while felling I can easily stall the chain if I'm a little too aggressive. When I'm bucking I have far better control of the saw's feed pressure while using the dogs. In the felling position the operator is hunched over with alot less control of the saw. Plus felling also means your cutting the largest and toughest part of the tree.
Willard.

Not necessarily, that it is the operator. I had the same troubles with a Stihl Chain, put a Carlton on, and didn't have any troubles, like I did with the Stihl. Both chains where new, at the time, I used them. With the Stihl chain, it was a lot harder to hold the chain saw back, while in the cut, than the Carlton. Bruce.

Willard Holmen · 4th October 2009, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Hopf

Not necessarily, that it is the operator. I had the same troubles with a Stihl Chain, put a Carlton on, and didn't have any troubles, like I did with the Stihl. Both chains where new, at the time, I used them. With the Stihl chain, it was a lot harder to hold the chain saw back, while in the cut, than the Carlton. Bruce.

Yes I have used Carlton chain and out of the box new they are not factory ground the same as Stihl, or Oregon for all that goes. The Stihl and Oregon have a very aggressive "hook" in their side plate where the Carlton is not so much.
20 years ago sawchain no matter what brand came new with a very poor grind. These chains had to be handfiled to improve the angles plus the edge to make them cut optimal. I guess the Carlton is still 20 years behind, now that Oregon owns them maybe they will be fine tuned too.

16th March 2009, 09:40 AM	#5
(WLL) Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: pa Posts: 240	Re: MS 460 Binding? maby your clutch is bad

16th March 2009, 10:18 AM	#6
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,820	Re: MS 460 Binding? So it only does this when the dawgs are buried and the saw is in a horizontal position? You said cutting up with saw in a vertical postion it doesn't happen, is that right? __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

16th March 2009, 10:44 AM	#8
Scaryfast Sappling Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: LaGrange GA Posts: 6	Re: MS 460 Binding? Yes, only when I'm cutting a tree down. As soon as the dawgs touch the tree, the saw grabs the tree and buries the dawgs which instantly stop the chain. These dawgs are aftermarket, big and sharp. The clutch? Well, the saw is new or was new, and it's done it from the very first tree. __________________ Scaryfast MS660 Mag MS460 Mag 036 Pro MS260 MS192T HT75 HS80 BG85

16th March 2009, 10:49 AM	#9
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,820	Re: MS 460 Binding? Two wild hunches. 1/ Dawgs are loose allowing saw to move putting side pressure on chain, also possible not inline with chain. Also check bar is straight, bolted up flush and not twisted. 2/ Thick washer not inserted between drive rim and circlip allowing chain to bind. Just check these things, it's got to do with the weight of the saw on the horizontal axis as problem doesn't occur in vertical axis use. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

16th March 2009, 02:14 PM	#10
Therrin Former Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Bakersfield, Ca Posts: 2,512	Re: MS 460 Binding? Does it have the same problem with stock dawgs?

15th March 2009, 06:23 AM	#1
Scaryfast Sappling Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: LaGrange GA Posts: 6	MS 460 Binding? Here's a question for experienced loggers. I'm certainly not a pro, but I've cut over 100 trees in my day and I have several saws including a bigger 660. On my 460, I have a Scotts muffler mod (same on my 660 and 036) and a set (2) of sharp aftermarket felling dawgs, same as I do on the 660. When I'm felling a tree with this 460, the chain stalls as soon as I touch the tree with the dogs. If I keep the dawgs back away from the tree, the saw cuts great, but just touch the tree with dawgs, bam, chain stalls. Is it me? I had an 8 tooth sprocket for a while and went back to the 7 tooth, no difference. The carb seems tuned well and plug color looks good. All my other saws don't do this. This 460 saw has always done this, what gives? BTW, when the tree is down and I'm bucking the tree, the dawgs do NOT stall the chain! __________________ Scaryfast MS660 Mag MS460 Mag 036 Pro MS260 MS192T HT75 HS80 BG85

15th March 2009, 09:08 AM	#2
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: orlando,fl Posts: 4,977	Re: MS 460 Binding? I assume your running at full throttle when you "dawg up"?Your suppose to anchor the saw with the dawgs,then throttle up,try that. __________________ Have your say join us today. old schooler

15th March 2009, 11:13 PM	#3
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,820	Re: MS 460 Binding? I'd have to see this live or a close up video, sure sounds fishy to me. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

16th March 2009, 12:56 AM	#4
Scaryfast Sappling Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: LaGrange GA Posts: 6	Re: MS 460 Binding? I don't have a way to video it, all I can say is it's done it since the saw was new, so that means several chains, new and resharpened. As soon as I bought the saw, I did the 8 tooth sprocket, installed the two aftermarket dawgs and installed the Scotts muffler mod. Currently, I've gone back to the 7 tooth, but it made no difference. It also doesn't make difference if I'm just starting the felling cut or am burried in the log. As soon as I allow the dawgs to touch the tree, the chain stops. As soon as I pull the dawgs away from the tree, the saw rips right through the tree. You can tell the chain is stuck when it stops, you need the really jerk it loose when it happens. The chain will not cut or even turn one revolution as long as the dawgs are in the tree. Like I said though, when I buck the logs, no problems at all with the chain binding, I can put the dawgs right in. WTF? __________________ Scaryfast MS660 Mag MS460 Mag 036 Pro MS260 MS192T HT75 HS80 BG85

27th September 2009, 10:51 AM	#11
palogger I'm new here so be nice Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: NW PA Posts: 2	Re: MS 460 Binding? the rakers or depth guages may be to low, i have the same problem once in a while and its usaully cause i have taken to much off the rakers when i file them __________________ Stihl ms460 with 24" winsdor speed tip and 75ck chain Stihl ms660 with 20" windsor speed tip and 75lgx chain

27th September 2009, 12:50 PM	#12
olyman Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: iowa--usa Posts: 125	Re: MS 460 Binding? me thnks ekka has it--i to believe the bar is bent--just ahead of the saw, and when the dogs hit, its twisted and binding--

1st October 2009, 03:07 PM	#16
Bruce Hopf Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: North of Sebringville, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,176	Re: MS 460 Binding? (#1) Is the chain A Stihl, Carlton, Windsor, or Oregon chain? (#2) Is it new, or has it been used a bit? (#3) Has the Raker's been ground, or filed down? It could be the chain. (#4) When you cut with the dawgs away from the tree, does the saw feel as if it is going to pull itself away, out of your hands? If the answer to #4 is yes, than your raker's are filed, or ground a little too low. I have had, and now have again, the same thing happen with my 044, with a new Stihl chain, even with the felling dawgs away from the tree. I asked my dealer about it, and he told me, that new Stihl chains, has a little more height to the top plate of cutter, above the raker, than other saw chain manufactures, like Carlton, Oregon, and Windsor, and the list goes on. He also told me, after a few sharpenings, that the problem will go away, and after a few sharpenings, I had no troubles after that, runnig the Stihl Chain. I also compared a new Stihl chain, to a new Carlton chain, I didn't have any troubles with the new Carlton chain, like I did with the new Stihl chain. Another thing to remember, is when you file, or grind down your raker's, have them filed, or ground down to about 0.020" to 0.025", from the top of the top plate of the cutter, or you will be back to square one again. I have ground down my raker's, a little more than 0.030", and I have that problem, all over again. I can't wait till I get a few more sharpenings on these chains, that I ground the raker's down on. A handful to hold onto. Hope this helps a bit. Bruce. __________________ McCulloch chain saws 1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's, 2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener, 1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver 2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10 Stihl chain saws 2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084, Strunk chain saws 1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

2nd October 2009, 03:29 AM	#18
stirmantrees Mature tree Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: oviedo, fl Posts: 469	Re: MS 460 Binding? if bruce or paloger arent right you may have gremlins. the rakers have got to be the problem. if so you have to keep filing the teeth down or get a new chain. be careful. filed rakers make for one bronco of a ride.

4th October 2009, 03:33 PM	#19
Willard Holmen Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Manitoba, Canada Posts: 649	Re: MS 460 Binding? I say its just inexperience in the felling cuts. Even myself when I dog in while felling I can easily stall the chain if I'm a little too aggressive. When I'm bucking I have far better control of the saw's feed pressure while using the dogs. In the felling position the operator is hunched over with alot less control of the saw. Plus felling also means your cutting the largest and toughest part of the tree. Willard.

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