Guide bar question: Stihl E vs ES on a MS 361?

StihlTheOne

Will be buying a Stihl MS361 soon so trying to decide on a guide bar. Any recommendations or informed opinions concerning the Stihl regular E bar vs the super ES? I guess I would like to hear from someone with real-world experience with both.

And I really can't find too much information on the specifics of these bars. Considering the 18" and 20" only bars at this time. I understand the construction difference, but what about the weight between the two? And it would be helpful to know when talking to a dealer, what's the Suggested Retail Price on the two? Is the difference worth it?

Basically, need to hear from you folks that have the knowledge. Please don't tell me to go talk to a dealer....I like to have this type of info BEFORE I visit them. (There's a couple around here that like to shoot from the hip when answering questions)

Thanks in advance for any information.

Therrin

STIHL ROLLOMATIC® ES Super
Solid machined bar made of high-grade steel with a replaceable bar nose sprocket assembly.

Applications: For high-performance professional woodcutting with high-powered, heavy-duty saws. Available from 16" to 59".


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STIHL ROLLOMATIC® E Standard
Three-part (spot welded) laminated guide bar made of high-grade steel with star-shaped sprocket.

Applications: All-around bar suitable for occasional, midrange or professional user.

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Your shorter bars will be harder to find in ES. Here are a couple pics I editted up that should hopefully give you some more info. The difference in cost (in the store) between the price of bars when buying the saw is minimal.

For example, here at my shop you can get:
MS361 / 16" bar = $579.95
MS361 / 18" bar = $589.95
MS361 / 20" bar = $599.95
MS361 / 25" bar = $609.95

Only bars from 16" to 25" are suggested for the 361. I have all of the above sizes, and I'd say that for that saw, the best 2 bar combo is the 16" & 20". Unless you're regularly going to be cutting larger diameter soft woods then get the 16"or18" and 25".

Really though, if you plan on regularly cutting 25" or larger in moderate to hard woods, I'd suggest bumping up to the next level of saw.

Attached Thumbnails

     

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Stihls: 200T, 011, 028, 260p, 361, 660

Give a man a match and he'll be warm for a moment, but light him on fire and he'll be warm the rest of his life.

Therrin

the difference in weight is really negligible. I also can't seem to find anything online about the specific weight, and I don't have a scale here at home to measure them with.

I was just holding the 16" bar... I'd say...oh, 2 lb 4oz? something close to that.

The weight of the bar helps to counterbalance the weight of the powerhead though. and like you said, you're only interested in 16" and 18". Weight is really no issue there.

What are you using the saw for?

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Stihls: 200T, 011, 028, 260p, 361, 660

Give a man a match and he'll be warm for a moment, but light him on fire and he'll be warm the rest of his life.

windthrown

I have a pair of 361s and I have bars from 16 through 28 inch. I have used them all, some are GB and some are Stihl. Most are solid bars, some are liamiated. I would recommend the ES solid bar (or a GB Pro Top or Ti bar) over the E bar for several reasons. E bars are laminated, and riveted together like a sandwhich. They are OK for firewood and cutting that is apt not to pinch the bar. But if you are doing any type of falling or bucking where the bar is apt to pinch or bend in the cut, get a solid bar. If a solid bar gets pinched in a cut, they resist imploding. Laminated bars can fold/bend into the space inside the bar. Also a solid bar will take a bend, like when a tree rocks back on the back cut before you can get the bar out or if a log that you are bucking decides to drop or heave. Once bent, a solid bar is easy to bend back into place. Laminated bars are harder to unbend, as they tend to buckle and warp when you bend and/or unbend them.

The first time I bent a GB Pro Top bar I was fuming at myself for misjudging the lean of a tree. Actually the tree lean was what I thought, it just had more limb mass on the other side and there was a light breeze. The tree was probably 120 feet tall (a grand fir). It rocked back over in the back cut and pinched the bar and just sat there. Taunting me. So I pulled the power head and cut the tree free with the 290 that I had, and over it went, the GB bar springing loose. It has bent at about a 30 degree angle and on a diagonal. I went down to the shop bend it back into shape. I was amazed how easy it was to do. Just bent it back along a wood counter top and that was it. You cannot tell where the bar was bent, or see any marks!

Also the ES bars have replacable nose sprockets. Laminated E type ones do not. Once a laminated bar sprocket go the bar is pretty much gone. If you pinch or bend a laminated nose the bar is pretty much gone. I had a laminated bar delaminate on me at the nose from time and wear. The rails were also shot along the nose, so I tossed it. If any of these things happens on a solid bar, the nose can be simply replaced.

As for bar length, I personally suffer from West Coast Long Bar Disease. WCLBD. I prefer the 25 inch bars on my 361 above all others, and the 20 inch is second best. I would recommend that you get the 20 inch ES bar. That is fairly ideal for that saw. I think the the optimum size bar for a 361 would be a 22 inch, but Stihl does not make that size bar. An 18 inch is a tad short, and starts to waste the torque of the saw unless you are burying the saw into bar deep hardwood. I only ran a 16 inch bar once on a 361 and thought it was a joke. But running a 16 or 18 inch bar on a 361, I usually put on an 8 pin rim. I know this gets beyond the OP, but rims are a way to vary torque and chain speed on your saw if you do get a short bar. An 8 pin rim will increase the chain speed at the price of having less torque. Cutting smaller trees, the higher chain speed will make cutting noticably faster. If you are bogging the saw down with the 8 pin rim, swap back to the 7 pin.

Oh, yah, as for the weight difference between the solid and laminated bars, I think that is a non-issue. I never really noticed any difference. Some say that a 25 inch bar tips the 'balance' of the saw too far forward, but that is only when you lug it around. In the cut, that is not noticed either. My second 361 came stock with a 28 inch bar on it, and while not in the factory recommended range, a lot of 361s here in the land of long bars wear 28 inch bars from the dealer. They work OK with skip chain (common in the PNW when cutting fir trees), but I do not think that the stock oiler will keep up with a 28 inch bar. My 28 inch ES has noticable bar burn from being used on the 361. I would recommend a 460 RZ oil pump bolt and piston be swapped into a 361 oil pump if you are running a 361 with a 28 inch bar.

And lastly, I prefer the GB Pro Top bar slightly over the Stihl ES bar. Main reason is that the GB bar is flatter, and less oval than the ES bar. Makes cutting face cuts and straighter back cuts that much easier. They also weigh a bit less, with less bar mass (non issue though). They were also cheaper, but I got a one time wholesale deal from Wojo on another forum on a GB bar sale. Thanks again Wojo!

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Stay thirsty my friends...

Modified Stihl work saws: 310, 4 x 026 / 3 x 361 / 1 x 044 / 066 in rehab

Sorry, my global parts shipping is suspended at this time.

windthrown

PS: I did not mention chain size. In 3/8" standard bars there are both 0.050 gauge and 0.063 gauge. I have both, but the 0.050 chain is far easier to get here, and on places like Ebay. It seems to vary by location as to which is more common. There has been much debate as to which is better and why, but I cannot see any real difference using either gauge bar on my 361s. Most of my bars are 0.050, and I have been meaning to replace the few 0.063 bars with 0.050. I am not willing to unload my ES bars and chains for cheap just to do that though. Rims will drive either gauge, no problem.

Now that you know more about bars than most of them do, you can go talk to your dealer about bars.

__________________
.
Stay thirsty my friends...

Modified Stihl work saws: 310, 4 x 026 / 3 x 361 / 1 x 044 / 066 in rehab

Sorry, my global parts shipping is suspended at this time.

windthrown

Oh, and one other thing... there is the issue of nose sprocket size. On another forum, there was a heated debate as to using larger nose bars in pro situations. In my experience, using yellow bars and chains is a non-issue. If you are familiar with saw kickback and behavior, go with yellow bars and chain. They cut better. Most ES bars are yellow, a few are green. Most E type bars are green. The difference being that green bars have narrower noses, and thus are less apt to produce stonger kickback when the nose hits anything solid, like wood (and the bar moving rapidly up and toward your head). For me this is a non-issue, and I have toyed with kickback on saws for hours out in the woods. I managed an 85 acre tree stand for four years, and I was not paid by the hour or job. So I could doodle with a lot of testing and comparing different equipment out there. Some however consider that a wide nose bar is dangerous. There are yellow and green ES bar lengths that have a 10, 11 or 13 sprocket nose in them. Just be aware of the difference, and if you can live with kickback, the wider nose bars are fine. If you are a newbie or not completely familiar or confortable with chainsaws, then a green bar may be the way to go for starters. Maybe that will keep the Canadian lynch mob from trying to string me up this round

BTW: in many Stihl shops here, you can get all types of bars in all types of lengths and widths. The Stihl shop in Cottage Grove, OR probably has the largest stock of bars that I have seen in any one place. E, ES, GB, Cannon, Windsor, & Oregon, all hanging on the wall. I also get RM loops made there. That is semi-chisel (yellow) chain, and cuts good in cruddy conditions while keeping the edges sharp longer. What can I say, I typically cut in cruddy conditions. Its Oregon!

__________________
.
Stay thirsty my friends...

Modified Stihl work saws: 310, 4 x 026 / 3 x 361 / 1 x 044 / 066 in rehab

Sorry, my global parts shipping is suspended at this time.

StihlTheOne

WOW!!! Really great information and I appreciate it.

Going to have to read those replies several times to digest all the info. I'm just getting into saws but one thing I've learned over the years, is that you can learn a lot from folks that know (and avoid some big mistakes!). And I'm a nut about details.

Again, thanks for taking the time to share this information.