Enough with the bar/chain options already.

KiwiBro

As a relative noob, there seems a bewildering array of options. Sure, some differentiation on quality and end use is essential, but whatever happened to the KISS principle?

So much of the options I'm trying to get my head around all seems rather fragmented, tribal, and a tad incestuous with private labelling happening all over the show.

Is it just my inexperience that leads me to question whether we'd all be better off with fewer options that while not so few as to be functionally restrictive, clean up the mess (a mess/mass of choices we all as consumers must be paying a premium for)?

Yeah, I don't give a hoot whether I'm flamed for being a desk jockey who doesn't appreciate, for example, the benefits to be had from stepping a fatter gauge drive link down to 0.50. Hey, but I'd be delighted to know if someone would like to edumacate me, please?

But I gotta ask, can you experienced pros keep up with all the variations and the reasons for them, and would you rather there was a little less fragmentation? Or do you just settle on what works for you and forget about the rest? Or should this noob reflect on the saying that it's better to be thought a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt?

Eric Frei

People generally buy what is readiliy available.

For example, Stihls here mainly use 0.063" guage but in USA they use mainly 0.050 guage.

Husky's here mainly use 0.058"

People try to keep guage uniform so they can use either Stihl or Husky saws with the same chain, mainly in America though. Here people seem to be either all Stihl or all Husky.

I'm all Stihl so 0.063" guage doesn't worry me, my bars and chains swap out on all my Stihl saws, 440, 460 660

__________________

Drouin Tree Service

I keep everything simple 20" or 25" with one saw running 32" all stihl semi chisel chain.

__________________

Drouin Tree Services | Excavator Hire - Drouin and SE Gippsland | Landclearing Melbourne

KiwiBro

What bars? Laminated, solid, polymer inserts, titanium, hard nose, sprocket nose (what number of teeth, grease-able or not), carlton made in germany or the carlton made by tsumara, or the GB made in China or the
BG ones in Aus', German steel of what grade, this or that brand that's actually just a private label made by any particular OEM, .050, .058, .063 or other gauge, if sprocket nose is it the multi gauge nose? I know I'm blonde but heck, I haven't even started on the chain yet and my head's already spinning.

Drouin Tree Service

Stihl bars and carlton made in Germany.

Only run 365 huskys as a small saw and 066's Dont grease tips thats a disaster waiting to happen.

I dont take notice of much else,as long as it works hard and hangs around i keep buying them.

__________________

Drouin Tree Services | Excavator Hire - Drouin and SE Gippsland | Landclearing Melbourne

Tree Machine

Kiwibro, I feel for ya. Early on I chose to buy chain making gear and buy reels of chain so a loop could be busted out in the moment while in the field. I have never regretted this, but I went with what was 'commonly used' on the different saws, so with small, medium and large saws I had 3 reels of chain; 3/8 low profile.043, .325 .050 and 3/8 .050.

Later on I accidentally, I ordered a reel of big saw chain in .058 gauge, so I found it easier to just purchase new bars to fit that chain, rather than send the reel back and exchange. The thinner gauge .050 seemed less durable than thicker .058 and this turned out to be the case, so it was a good mistake.

Next mistake was putting the connecting links (they're called presets and tie-straps) into the same divided case, so for three chain sizes, you have six different individual components. From a glance, they all look pretty much similar, but are not interchangable. SO, if you accidentally dump the storage case it's more than a bummer. I was running Stihl chain around then and their 3/8 link connectors do not fit other brands of the same size 3/8 chain, again not interchangable.

SO, realizing there's now 4 connectors (8 individual pieces) for 3 size chains after the spilling of the connectors incident I wondered if I could run the 3/8 low profile chain used on the small, top handle saw, and run it on the medium size saw. Answer: yes, by changing out the drive sprocket and running the same bar as the small saw. Bingo, eliminated the .325 chain / bar from my existence. I'm really glad I did this. The small Stihl saw runs the same pitch/gauge chain as the medium Husky, making it all that much easier. The big saw runs it's own chain, only the loop length between 24" and 36" is the difference.

I'm with you as far as KISS.
I now have two sizes of chain for three sizes of saws. The small and medium saws run the same pitch/gauge bar, though I can vary the length because different length chain loops can be made on site. Like yesterday I have a GB Aussie bar, a 3 footer and a Sandvic 3 footer, each differs in overall loop length by two driver links. Had I bought the loop, assuming same length chain loop for either of the bars, I'm screwed. But I built the chain in the field, assuming the same length, and was only temporarily screwed, as I was able to add an extra driver link, just to find out it was STILL too short, so another driver link was added and we were back to work.

I like making chain loops, regardless of the $ savings, its just kinda fun.


As far as chains being picco, micro, macro, elbow, don't know, don't much want to know, have never really needed to know.

Your thread really hit home with me. I stumbled through this stuff for years to partially answer your question.

Bruce Hopf

Here, for myself on the farm, I have a range of bars, and chains that I can use, well for my 034, and my 044. I run a 16", a 20", and a 24" bar. I pretty much can swap them around. Also, depending what diameter of wood, I'm cutting.
Weight ratio isn't that much, between the bars, but the longer you go with a bar, the more unbalanced the chain saw feels (to me it does, but others may not find any difference).
Also, if I was doing a lot of cutting, bigger than the trees that I have in my bush, I'd probably have at least a 30" to a 34" x 0.050" gauge bar, for my chain saws.
I use 3/8 pitch X 0.050" chain, and I spin my own chains as well. If I cut the wood, on the scale as a lot of the guys here (which I don't, and this is all I need), I'd probably go with a heavier gauge, than what I'm useing, but I cut enough fire wood to heat my house with, and I might sell the odd bit of fire wood.
If I was buying a new chain saw, I'd get a couple other different lengths of bars, and chains, with the chain saw, if it came with a 20", or 24" bar. One would be almost the maximum length of bar, and the same gauge of bar and chain that could be used on the chain saw, and a 16" bar.
That way, I won't have to buy, and have a lot of spools of chain kicking around. Nothing wrong with it, but I've seen guys try and do liming work with a 24" bar.
I find that (for me any way), that makes the chain saw feel more awkward to use. rather than using a 16" bar to do the same job.
This is just me though. With a bad back, I have to work with what works best for me, and the system that I have in place, does work good for me. Thanks for posting, and sharing in this thread. Bruce.

__________________
McCulloch chain saws
1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's,
2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener,
1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver
2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10
Stihl chain saws
2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084,
Strunk chain saws
1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special
Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

Willard Holmen

Well fellows today there are far fewer bar/chain options, then say 20 yrs ago.
The sawchain / bar companies have narrowed things done to a much more simplified selection now.
But there are people out there [myself included] who demand a wide variety of product. We demand a certain b/c for felling, bucking,delimbing, aerial tree work, sawmilling, carving, cutting paper rolls, cutting dirty firewood, cutting lake ice, quartering up a moose , cutting aluminum, cutting concrete, fire fighting demolition. I'm sure there are many other applications.
Examples is when I do carving [sculpturing] with a saw, I need a finishing chain to make the best detail in my work, I don't use dremils or chisels etc. So I take a 1/4" chain completely apart and then rebuilt it with a cutter on every side strap [full house chain]. This chain does the job what I intended it to do.
When I cut 54" diameter kraft paper rolls for the local paper mill, the only chain that can do the job on my big Stihl 090- 60"b/c is a .404 harvester semi chisel chain.
When I fell or buck up big softwoods I like using full skip chain.
The more you use and understand chainsaw use the more you appreciate the variety.
Willard.

Eric Frei

Oh, and to make matters really KISS

I pissed off the micro bar and chain on the HT75 Stihl pole saw and run same bar and chain as ms200T.

First thing I noticed was a lot less derailments and kinked chains, keep the revs up, don't file the rakers down too much and you have a darn good pole saw.

I only have 2 types of chains too now, if I were into buying rolls only need 2 types and fits everything.

I have the 3/8 picco for pole saw and 200T and the 3/8 0.063 for the larger Stihls.

Australia predominantly uses the 0.063" gauge and it is the most stocked chain around the town beside the 0.058" Husky. I have seen people putting a 0.058" Husky chain on a Stihl 0.063" bar, 0.005" or 0.12mm not much different, but you will wear out the Stihl bar fast and cut bananas. Some fools do try to bang a 0.063" Stihl chain into a worn Husky bar too.

Think it through, I like the Stihl saws, I like changing bars across all my range, I like it simple.

__________________

Willard Holmen

I agree for arborist work all you really need is 2 sizes of chain. Keep it simple. There is enough other equipment to maintain and worry about....chipper, stump grinder, mini-skid,[my Muck Truck LOL]. In arborist work a chainsaw is generally not run steady 8-10 hrs a day.
Willard.

windthrown

Hey KiwiBro:

Bars and chains can be very confusing, indeed. One reason I settled on a series of Stihl 026, 310, 361, 044 and 066 saws is that they all take the same large mount Stihl bar; the 3003 bars. They are mostly 3/8 0.050, but a few are 3/8 0.063. I can swap all my bars and chains between all my saws using the same type of rims. I can also swap rims. I have some bars that are laminated, but most are solid bars. They all have nose sprockets. Some are yellow bars, some are green. I have 16, 18, 20, 25, 28 and 32 inch bars. Some are GB, most are Stihl. I have mostly semi-chisel chains for them, but I also have some full chisel, and some semi and full skip chains. They all have different uses and applications.

On my 361s and modified 310, for falling and bucking 24 inch Doug fir and pine trees I typically use a 20 or 25 inch solid bar with a full comp semi chisel chain and a 7 pin rim. For limbing I might use an 18 inch laminated bar (becasue its lighter) with a full comp semi-chisel chain and an 8 pin rim drive. For noodling (cutting rounds into quarters) I usually use a 25 inch solid bar with full chisel full skip chain and a 7 pin rim. For larger trees I will use my 044 or 066 with a 28 or 32 inch bar, and semi-skip chain. For hardwoods, I typically use a 361 with a 20 inch bar and full comp chain. For smaller trees and climbing, or limbing and topping trees, I use an 026 with a 16 or 18 inch bar and full comp chain.

On a stock or modded Stihl MS 310 I would suggest a 3/8 standard 20 inch bar and full comp semi-chisel chain like Stihl RM or RMC. Semi chisel stays sharp longer and they are easier to sharpen. They also run better if they are rocked or dinged up (and they are better at preventing/deflecting that from happening). You could go with either a solid pro type bar or a lighter laminated bar. Solid bars are better for falling trees with, becasue if the bars get pinched and bent in the cut, they can be bent back into shape pretty easy. I have done that with several of my GB bars, and you cannot tell where they were bent. Laminated bars are good for limbing and running on the 'all day saw' becasue they are lighter. They hold up OK, but typically not as long or well as a solid type bar. Also a solid bar has a replacable nose sprocket, and a laminated type bar does not.

rbtree

how so, Jim? I've run .050 on everything for 35 years, save .063 on .404 pitch for my 42 an dup bars...Never have a problem with chain breakage......or anything else. Speed is what its all about, and .050 will always be fastest.

I'm about done with my .325 full chisel roll of good fast cutting aggressive Stihl chain, and am switching to all .375.....no doubt my modded 3 cube saws are better with it.....

I don't understand your use of picco on 3 cube saws , or Holmen's of 1/4 pitch.

I know it's smooth cutting, but it's a pain to sharpen with all those cutters, and it's pricey....

rbtree

Windthrown.....I haven't run semi chisel in years...save for climb saws, of course. Reckon I oughta get some, as it is frustrating when chisel chain dulls, and ya gotta take time out to sharpen it....But it's a minor issue, and the extra speed is nice.

I like laminated bars as well, but only for small saws to save weight. The ones I get don't last very long, which I'm sure is typical.

Willard Holmen

Yes I never had problems with .050 for durability. I run 3/8 .050 Oregon chain on my bike saw and its got 10 times the hp of my 372 or 044. Stihl chain is always .063 between the cutters [making widest kerf] whether its .050 or .063 drive links. Oregon .050,.058 is .058 between the cutters.
More speed with .050 on a standard b/c ? None. Only speed gained is a thinner laminated bar which in turn allows a thinner kerf cutting chain. I own custom made competition .050 bars that are only 1/8" thick.
But with solid body .050 bars the replaceable tips are always .063 and yes the .050 chain wobbles at the tip area causing a little deflection and vibration. With a .058 b/c the .005 isn't a big deal.
.063 b/c is a true runner all the way through from rim to sprocket nose. If your using Stihl chain on a work saw you then might as well use .063 b/c. I have a few old Oregon .050 medium contour bars with replaceable 1/2 moon joint .050 sprocket tips, but they were discontinued back in the early 1980s. These bars were a little fatter in the belly also and they were fine bars with .050 straight through.

I run 1/4" chain because I still do a little carving for myself and I sponsor/run a chainsaw speed cutting and timed carving competitions.I always loan carvers loops of 1/4"chain if they hit some debris in the logs I supply for the competition. So I ordered a couple more rolls because I now started running it on my top handle saw for my tree service business. MS200 with 1/4" chain is now even lighter in weight [yes lighter and narrower in kerf then Picco and stronger then Mini-Picco] and is a pleasure doing precision aerial bore cuts with back straps on small tops and stems. Smoother pruning cut surfaces also.
I ran 1/4 on my 346XP but the saw is a little over kill so I just keep .325 chisel on it. I've been hand filing sawchain for over 35 yrs, the few extra cutters don't slow me down ,I just file faster.
Willard.

windthrown

Full chisel is great, if you are in clean wood. No question that it cuts faster... I put them on saws that I want to sell, and sell they do. However, I have been doing a lot of arbor stuff lately, and I wind up rocking a lot of chains. Mainly nails from old tree houses, laundry lines, or fences nailed to trees in yards and stuff like that. Ever try to sharpen a rocked full chisel chain? Have to pay extra for someone with a good grinder to take about 1/4 of the steel off of them. If the points go, they are completely useless, even after attempts at hand filing. I also do a lot of slash pile firewood salvage (still). That wood is full of crud and slung sand and mud from being skidded and sitting for the better part of a year. So RM is still the chain of choice for me. I keep my full chisel loops handy too though.

Its gatting hard to get Stihl full comp RM chain any more. The distributors here do not carry it. They all carry full skip, RMF (which is commonly the loggers choice here). So I get loops made in Cottage Grove when I go through there, as they still have a roll or two left of that stuff. I also carry some older RM2 loops with me with the safety rakers in the case that I know that there are nails and rocks and what-not in there. Slower cutting, but they stay sharp so in the end its really faster cutting. I found that to be the case using RM when I was logging and thinning as well. Over time, it was easier to use RM. I would take 2 loops with me and swap them out half way through the day, and touch them up at night. Full chisel only worked great for about the first hour...

Therrin

I keep my stuff pretty simple too.

I did away with my .325 bar/chains, and now I only run 3/8 picco microon my 200T and 011 @ .050.

And 3/8 full @ 0.050 on all my other saws.

I actually like having a wide range of bar sizes. but I mostly use 12" & 14" on my small saws, and 16", 20", 24" & 28" on my larger saws. I prefer the roller tip ones, but I also like the lightweight bars for my 200T because of the way it balances.

Chain types... I only use Stihl chain. RM, RSC3, or RS on the larger saws and PMC3 on the smaller ones.

Here's a few links that will help you sort things out!

http://www.stihllibrary.com/pdfs/SawChainSelection.pdf

Identifying Saw Chain - STIHL USA

STIHL Guide Bars - STIHL Incorporated USA -- Products -- Chain Saws -- Manufacturing the World's Number One Selling Brand of Chain Saws

KiwiBro

Thanks Y'all for helping clarify matters somewhat. I only wish the industry main players adopted a standardised/harmonised/ubiquitous coding convention for their wares.

Willard Holmen

The major players, Stihl- Husqvarna -Oregon Sawchain have harmonized to a certain extent in todays times.
Stihl and Oregon both make .043,.050,.058,.063,.080 and .122 gauge sawchain and bars. So in this sense the industry is standardized fairly well.
We need this variety of product because every enduser has a special application for it.
Just like the world class timbersport champion, he has a dozen different shaped and honed axes in his arsenal to stay on top.
Willard.

KiwiBro

Eric Frei

You should be proud of yourself starting such a good thread.

Some "pro's" don't mind writing and helping out, others prefer the whole forum got flushed.

What I find is this, WTF is the good of knowing a lot and saying little? Well, some want to be paid for what they say, and after you heard it you might want a refund anyways.

__________________

Bruce Hopf

Carlton makes a wide variety of bars as well.
They have them for the harvester out fits as well as chain saws. Bruce.

__________________
McCulloch chain saws
1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's,
2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener,
1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver
2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10
Stihl chain saws
2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084,
Strunk chain saws
1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special
Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

Therrin

Knowing little but still saying alot is almost worse.


Hope you get it all figured out! It took me a while to get it all squared away, and at that I still don't know much about it. I usually refer to those pages I gave you the links to if I need to understand something.

For me, I keep it simple by only using Stihl bars/chain, and getting to know the particulars specifically for the stuff that fits my uses and I don't pay much attention to the rest of it. Work it that way and it'll keep you from going crazy.

I think there's an entire art in and of itself of knowing bars and chains, maintaining them, accurately filing chains and all of that. Alot of people pass over most of that, but learning it is really the way to go.

windthrown

That would be nice, but it will never happen. It comes down to marketing and competition, as well as regional differences and market demand. What sells in Oz and Europe are 0.063 guage B&C, whereas here in the states, its mostly 0.050 gauge B&C (except on .325 which is all 0.063 gauge on Stihls). Husky runs 0.058 guage B&C. I have run them all, and to be honest, I cannot tell you that there is any real difference in the cutting quality of the wear on chains or the bars becasue of the gauge. However, there are raging debates as to the differences between them. Its amusing. You can make the arguement for wider rails on the bar, and you can make an arguement for wider width of chain drive links. In the case of Stihl, the bars are the same stock width and the chains are the same for both gauges (only the dirve links are fatter). One rim drives them both.

Why the different gauges? Well, in days of old, they would start with narrow bars, and then grind them wider as they wore out. Start with 0.050 and then widen it to 0.058 and finally end up with 0.063. Or so I was told. I was not around in those times. I keep getting 0.063 B&C on some of the used saws that I buy, and if I keep them, I change them over to 0.050 and sell the 0.063 B&C. I have standardized on 0.050 gauge 3/8 standard Stihl 3003 bars and chains for my saws becasue they are interchangable on all my saws. It took a few years to boil it down to that. Yah, its complex and confusing. And even then there are a dozen cutter types to choose from, and solid and laimated bars, and brands (a lot of overlap there though, as bars and chains are rebranded). I run Carlton and Stihl chains.

MrDiesel

Great thread

Does anyone know if this is common practice? The reason i ask is i have a 3120 which has an oregon .063 bar. As most of my saws are Husky i only have .058 chain. I dont use the 3120 very often so i didnt want to get another bar for it

Willard Holmen

I have done this before with no major problems as long as the .058 chain was new and the .063 bar wasn't worn out.
You can put a steel shim around .060" in the .063 bar groove and hammer the bar rails where the shim is on a anvil and go along until the whole length of the bar rails are tightened up. Not perfect but works well enough.

Willard.

superfire

For me I stick to Stihl .063 gauge .375 for my MS 460 with the 3' bar . I leave my saws setup up with grab and go bars and chains. My dealer has most chains on the shelf ready to go, it makes it a snap to go in and get what I need then get back to work. Parts availible is why stick with Stihl saws and bars and chains.