3/8 standard vs 3/8 low profile; and vs .325

windthrown

OK, this thread stems from a 346xp thread that was off on a chain tangent. I decided to make it a thread on its own merrit... and to clarify a lot of that I have read out there over the years, particularly in regard to 3/8 standard chain vs 3/8 low profile (AKA: picco) chain. We can argue about running 3/8 standard (or low profile) chain vs .325 chain here as well (it is inevitable). To start with, all of this is in the ancient English rather than more modern metric measurment system. Do not ask me why that is still the case, it just is.

There are many brands of 'Low Profile 3/8 inch' chain. I have used several, including Oregon, Carlton, and Stihl. Most common low profile chains are semi chisel chains. Stihl calls 3/8 low profile chain 'Picco', but it is pretty much the same as the Carlton low profile chain. 3/8 low profile differs from 3/8 standard chain in most ways. However, and a BIG however, they both have the same (yes, the very exact same) pitch, which is actually 0.367 inch. The term 3/8 inch, or .375 inch refer to the 'relative pitch' and 'near term' number used for 3/8 chain. It was easier to round up to 3/8 rather than call it .367 inch. Marketing hype for you. However, a 100 foot roll of low profile 3/8 chain has 1640 drive links, which is exactly the same number as 3/8 standard chain. What this means is that the pins in the chain links are in the same position, and they rotate on the same axes. In many cases the gauge of the chains are the same as well, in the US at least. Here standard 3/8 and low profile 3/8 inch chains are most commonly 0.050 inch gauge. This is the width of the drivers that set into the bars.

And now for the differences, for which there are many. 3/8 standard chain is larger, stronger and beefier chain. There is no comparison in strength, but both have advantages and disadvantages. 3/8 low profile chain has smaller/shorter drivers than does 3/8 standard chain. Low profile chain is also narrower than 3/8 standard, and thus has a narrower kerf. This is good in that it cuts a thinner slice of wood, and thus requires less energy to do so. The cutters on low profile chain also have a lower profile than 3/8 standard chains do (hence the name), meaning that they sick up above the bar less than 3/8 standard chain cutters do. This is for two reasons, one being that the low profile chain links are not as large as standard links and the other bing that low profile cutters are smaller than those on standard chains, so they do not ride as high. The cutters are also set narrower on the chain, as a consequence of the chain being narrower, and the fact that the cutters are smaller. Typically 3/8 standard semi chisel cutters are sharpened with 7/32 inch files, whereas 3/8 low profile chains are sharpened with 5/32 inch files. Yes, Stihl recommends 13/64 files on their 3/8 standard chains, but I start by filing my new 3/8 standard chains with 7/32 inch files and move down to 3/16 files as the cutters pass the half way wear point (old school Stihl woods filing).

Now for some other differences running these two types of chains, particularly the bars and nose sprockets on bars. Comparing a 3/8 standard and 3/8 low profile bar you will notice that the low profile bars are narrower. The gauges of the slots are the same width, but the rails on the low profile bars are narrower than for standard bars. This is becasue 3/8 low profile chain is narrower than 3/8 standard. Also the nose sprockets are narrower and shorter on low profile bars than standard bars. If you run 3/8 low profile chain on a 3/8 standard bar (as many seem to do) the low profile chain will ride up on the nose sprocket becasue of the narrow width of the chain compared to the width of the nose sprocket. If you try to run a standard chain on a low profile bar, the drivers on the standard chain will not fit into the low profile nose sprocket becasue the 3/8 standard drivers are too big and too deep for the low profile nose. For this reason, many places like Logosol sell hard nose 3/8 standard large format bars w/o nose sprockets to people that want to run 3/8 low profile chain on larger saws with large format mounts.

Stihl has had a few rare 3/8 low profile/picco Rolomatic bars in the larger format 3003 saw mounts with nose sprockets. They had an option here in the states on the early model 024 chainsaws for running picco B&C. However, they stopped selling the larger format picco bars in the USA because people were running them on the likes of 066 large format bar mount chainsaws that will completely overpower the small low profile chains. Logosol sells large format low profile bars for chainsaw milling, and some come up from time to time here in the states on the internet. Overseas, Stihl re-sells Logosol bars (or vice verse, I cannot figure it out). Running picco chains on large format Stihl saws are the darling of the chainsaw mill crowd. The reason being that the narrow kerf makes a better/finer cut in the wood, and the kerf is narrower meaing that there is less wood cut, so the saws run cooler and smoother. Overheating is a typical problem when running chainsaw mill saws. Also note that most Logosol bars sold as low profile large mount picco bars (at least for Stihl) are typically solid nose bars. This is to get around the 3/8 low profile chain riding up on the 3/8 standard nose sprockets. Also the low profile/picco chains typically used for chainsaw milling are special ripping chains. And yes, they sell them for Husky and Efco saws as well (though I am not nearly as familiar with those saws and the bars run on them; I am a Stihlhead StihlBilly).

windthrown

Saw sprockets/rims are another matter when running Stihl 3/8 low profile chain. Note that small mount 3/8 low profile picco bars and chains are cheap and easy to find on Stihls. They are common on 200, 210/211 and 170/180 size saws. Finding rim drives for them are another matter though. I could never find any mini spline picco rims that fit my 025/250s mini spline clutch drums. Baileys lists a 7 pin 'mini spline' Stihl picco rims for $14 each (ouch!). However, they show the same part number on that as the Stihl small spline rim drive, so I have to wonder what exactly they are selling as a picco mini spline rim: Stihl PN 0000 642 1240. I never found a mini rim in picco in my long search, and I eventually gave up. So I ran with tooth/spur sprockets on my 025/250s with Picco B&C. I did find and buy some small spline 7 pin picco rims that I got from one Stihl dealer (for fairly cheap). It seems that the only Stihl Picco rims that exist are in 7 and 8 pin configurations formatted on the small spline. The 024, 026 and 025 Stihl IPLs have the Stihl part numbers. Supposedly they were originally made for the 024 with the picco B&C. Also many people run the likes of their 440s and 660s with Picco use sprur sprockets becasue of the lack of standard size Picco rims. I have never found any large spline rims that fit a Stihl 360 and up large format bar size. If you run a 3/8 standard rim with Picco chain, there is just too much slop in the drive and it will not run well.

I am setting up my third 026 to run picco now. I have one 026 that I run with a 16 inch 3/8 standard B&C. I have another that I run with a 16 inch .325 B&C. I am rebuilding abother 026 that I just got from Lakeside. I am setting that saw up with a 16 inch picco B&C. I did not plan it this way, it just happened to be with the bars I got these saws with, or what I had around from other saws. It will be interesting to make comparisons using them. I have been arguing that 3/8 standard chain pretty much cuts the same as .325, and that is what I have seen with my two 026s set up with both. I also found that picco ran better/faster on my 025s than running with .325. I hated running .325 on small format Stihl saws, but they were the only size rims that I could get in the mini spline. The main difference between the 3/8 standard and .325 is that the .325 has more cutters per inch than the 3/8 does. Other than that they have about the same (fat) kerf (as I have measured) and similar chain size. There is also no such thing as narrow Stihl .325 kerf chain or bars. I looked and looked for that stuff for years. Ain't no such beast any more (at least not here in the states). I have done a lot of comparison cutting between 3/8 standard and .325 on my 026s, and I really do not see much difference. .325 is smoother from more cutters, but the kerf is the same, so the same energy has to go into the cuts. On my 025 I found that the .325 wandered in the cut, and the bar tended to pinch all the time. I have argued that this is common, and that all the used small format .325 bars that I see tend to have all the paint missing on them (seemingly from the pinched bars in cuts). I have read many places that people swear by .325. I swapped over to 3/8 standard chain becasue I want to run all one B&C types on my saws. I will have two exceptions to that though, being the one .325 and one picco for my 026 fleet. Over time I shall see which B&C combination wins out in the 50cc saw class (the Lakeside saw will also get a full woods porting, so I will have a 60cc saw "equivalent" to test as well).

Some Picco rim drive part numbers from Stihl IPLs:

Small spline rims for the 024/026 and 025:
7 pin small spline rim: 0000 642 1240
8 pin small spline rim: 0000 642 1241

OK, there went my 6 pack of beer... time to start in on the tequilla.

Willard Holmen

Thats alot of reading there Scott. Kind of hard to keep it all in scope. I believe I have forgotten more about chain then what I know now. I've been out of the technical end for 20 yrs ,I myself just learned how to turn a computer on almost 2 yrs ago, but design really hasn't changed alot in the last 20 yrs hasn't it?
I'll throw a curve ball in here. Back 25 yrs ago I ran Stihl 33TS .050 [topic super] chisel chain and Oregon 77LG .058 chisel chain on my Jonsereds. This was what we called Lo Pro chain in the pro market at that time, we didn't even know what the Picco 3/8 "consumer" semi chisel crap was.
The 33TS and 77LG were beautiful chains for the 50,60 cc saws. It was 3/8" with a lighter chasis and smaller cutters then the 33Rs, 73LG full size 3/8. Almost as light as a .325 but a size in between. Yes demand when the pro market downscaled led to it been discontinued.

From not having alot of "old"experience with the Picco or other Lo Pro chain I do know the Lo Pro chain has a matched drive sprocket and bar nose sprocket. The sprockets have a blunt tip on the teeth where the standard 3/8 have longer pointier tips. Like you said about the picco chain riding up the standard bar noses sprocket , its not because the chain is narrower and rides up a wider nose. It's because the Picco chain rides up the longer teeth.
The big advantage the .325 has over the 3/8 LoPro is the .325 is available in chisel cutters. Years ago I modded up a .325 spur onto my Stihl 020's 3/8 lo pro sprocket drum along with a small mount .325 Husky bar. Yes I then had a 020 top handle with a chisel chain. The little saw cut good ,noticeably better then the Picco. My newer Ms200 should really rip with it, but the drum is long gone, end of story. But now going to 1/4" on the MS200 and 346XP should be real interesting when my chain comes in the mail.
I milled for years with my Alaskan mill with all sizes of chain. I broke down cants with my 066 and picco chain and got an extra piece of lumber with the narrower kerf. I slabbed the logs and cut cants with the 090 with .404 chisel and semi chisel.
I know Stihl USA offers products you can't get in most other parts of the world for example 13 tooth 3/8" sprocket bar tips. But Oregon or everyone else for all that goes only made a small 7 spline bore rim sprocket with a 7 T count, never a 8.
You gave some Stihl part# of Picco rims in small spline, 7 and 8 Tooth. I never heard of Picco rims before, can you post that IPL for us to see?

Willard.

Bruce Hopf

Now I have a better idea between the 3/8 standard, and 3/8 low profile. I couldn't figure it out, till now, or couldn't remember from a while ago. I've been away from this stuff for quite a while.
I was going to set up my 024, with 3/8 standard chain, but I was talking to another person, and they suggested that I shouldn't go that route, because of the hard woods that I cut, like Ash, Oak, Elm, and Maple, would be too much for my chain saw to cut in.
I have a rim sprocket here, that some one tried to run 3/8 with his smaller saw, but it does fit the small spline for the 024/026. You can see where the chain ran on the rim, but you can't feel anything on it.
I figure that they tried it, took the chain saw back, and switched back over to .325 pitch chain. If someone wanted to trade me this one for a .325 pitch rim, I'd be interested in doing something like that.
Thanks again windthrown, for going into all the detail of explaining things. I've learned something new, or had my memory refreshed. One of the two. , Bruce.

__________________
McCulloch chain saws
1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's,
2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener,
1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver
2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10
Stihl chain saws
2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084,
Strunk chain saws
1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special
Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

windthrown

I cannot post sections of my 026 IPL, as I do not have Adobe Accrobat to cut out single pages from that file. The file is restricted and will not allow me to edit it with only the freebie Adobe reader.

Bruce Hopf

Let me know what sections you would like posted, and I'll see what I can do. Bruce.

__________________
McCulloch chain saws
1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's,
2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener,
1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver
2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10
Stihl chain saws
2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084,
Strunk chain saws
1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special
Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

Cole

what sort of chain do you run on your 034 bruce im using standard 3/8 full chisel on a 16" bar. i run .325 on my 026, 3/8 full chisel on my 381 441 460 and 660, and 404 on the 880

Bruce Hopf

I run Carlton 3/8" semi chisel on my 034, with a 16" bar, Carlton 3/8" semi chisel, and Stihl chain (have no idea if it is semi chisel, or chisel) both with a 20" bar on my 044.
I also have a 16 bar that I'm using from another 034 that I have as a project saw, with semi chisel on my 044 as well. I also have a couple of 16" Stihl chains that I'm using as well, that I have in circulation with the rest of my 16" chains
My 024, and 026 I run .325 on both. Bruce.

__________________
McCulloch chain saws
1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's,
2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener,
1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver
2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10
Stihl chain saws
2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084,
Strunk chain saws
1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special
Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

Bruce Hopf

STIHL T.I.S.
If you are looking for a parts list for Stihl products, here is a link for it. For user, put stihl in lowercase letters (as an example NOT CAPITALS like this), and for user use internet the same way as stihl. Hope this helps a bit. Bruce.

__________________
McCulloch chain saws
1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's,
2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener,
1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver
2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10
Stihl chain saws
2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084,
Strunk chain saws
1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special
Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

windthrown

026 IPL page 6 is all that is needed.

Bruce Hopf

Were you able to pull up the link that I posted here? If not, let me know what part you are looking up, that way I'll have a rough idea where to try and find it for you, then I can post it here, or email it to you. Let me know. Thanks. Bruce.

__________________
McCulloch chain saws
1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's,
2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener,
1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver
2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10
Stihl chain saws
2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084,
Strunk chain saws
1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special
Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

windthrown

Yah, I could pull it up. No problem. The same as the IPL I have.

Cole

thanks for that bruce thats awesome helped me with heaps of stuff

Willard Holmen

Bruce the link didn't work for me so I just Googled Stihl 026 IPL page 6 and printed a copy of that page.
Willard

Willard Holmen

A big thankyou for the information windthrown
Now if only I had these part #s when I was into chainsaw milling years ago, I would have saved alot of Picco chain. The 066 was bloody hell on it. Stihl never fails to amaze me, they always come up with some unique products you can't get somewhere else.
Now if only my Stihl dealer can get me these sprockets without waiting a lifetime like it is for my 1/4" chain. My Carlton 1/4"order from Baileys should be any day now ,they are always on time and thats coming from the US.
Willard.

Willard Holmen

Bruce I remember when I bought my 034 when they first came out around 1984,. Our logging camp store had to stock parts and saws for us guys which they sold to us on payroll deduction. I think it was around $2 a cord. I was the only guy running a 034 and it drove the store clerk crazy when I had him sell me small spline 3/8 rims. Everything there was always standard spline.
The 56cc 034 in 1984 was good in small pulpwood but but was underpowered from my heavier 038mag and Jonsered 630 in average wood. I bought the 61cc 034Super when it became available which was a major improvement for power to weight ratio.
Willard.

Willard Holmen

From the Stihl 026 IPL page 6, I now know there is 3/8" Picco 7 and 8 pin rim sprockets in small 7 spline bore. But there is no listing for a 3/8" 8 pin small bore rim for standard 3/8 chain. Like I always said no such thing.
I went to my local Stihl dealer and the 0000 642 1241 3/8" Picco 8T # was good, still in circulation, so I ordered a couple.
The Picco rim may not mesh precisely with standard 3/8" chain. I'll just have to wait until they come in and I'll try them out.
A sprocket rim is a spur sprocket inside a rim. Take a close look at one.
Willard.

Cole

hey holmen, ive got n 034 stihl is there anyway i can find out what year it was made and what specific 034 it was, apart from measuring the piston 46 for std and 48 for super i think

Willard Holmen

What is the serial #
Yes 46mm for 034 48mm for 034S

Willard Holmen

Also in that rim list is 0000 642 1231 rim sprocket 3/8" 7 T[pin] small spline for standard 3/8 chain.
If my memory serves me , I believe the picco rims don't match up with the larger standard chains drive link..
Willard.

Cole

426470671

Cole

what bar chain and rim were u running on your 034 holmen

Willard Holmen

That # doesn't look like a # we have here in North America. It must be a Stihl Australia#.
See your Stihl dealer and he can look it up and give you date of manufacture etc.
Willard.

Willard Holmen

Oh man memory is working here . 25 yrs ago I was running a 16" Windsor Mini Pro 3/8" bar with either a Stihl 33TS chisel chain or the Oregon 72LG on the 034.
Willard.

Bruce Hopf

I cut Ash, and Maple here with my 034, and it does a good job for me. I only cut stuff from about 4" to 10" or 12" stuff with it, and anything bigger, I use my 044 for the bigger stuff. I could cut bigger stuff with the 034, but the power and speed of the 044 can't be beat for the bigger stuff. Bruce.

__________________
McCulloch chain saws
1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's,
2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener,
1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver
2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10
Stihl chain saws
2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084,
Strunk chain saws
1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special
Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

Cole

haha thanks wilard...lol i bet that did get the memory working thanks for checking tho ill ring my dealer and find out ill try get a pic of it and post....do yo still own one. i got it years ago and have only used it 4 or 5 times its not as nice to use as any of the newer saws so i leave it at home. lol c'mon brucey i know you and windy are protective of your 044's and talk highly of them but i reckon my 460 660 would beat the 044 for sure even the 441 would go alright against it.


lol i can picture bruce fuming over my post no offence mate just a bit of fun

Bruce Hopf

Not fuming at all. Up until a year ago, I was a Die Hard McCulloch man. I was getting to the point, because of health reasons, I had to do something, because running the McCulloch chain saws was slowly doing me in.
A few guys over on AS (before I was Banned there), talked me into going to Stihl, like the 044. I had found one, with a blown piston, so I picked it up, and I fixed it myself (being that I used to be a service tech for Stihl, was one of the reasons I went that direction, because other than McCulloch, I went with something that I knew a little about), and I used aftermarket parts for the repair.
I don't know too much about the 046, or the 066, but I have done a bit of modifications to the muffler of my 044, so the 046 if it was stock, could probably have it's hands full.
One thing that sold me on the Stihl, was the anti vibration system that it has, over the non anti vibration of the McCulloch chain saws that I have in my signature.
Don't get me wrong, if my McCulloch chain saws had the anti vibration system that my Stihl chain saws have, I wouldn't have the Stihl chain saws in my stall.
Another thing that has me sold on my Stihl Chain saws, is the weight ratio to my McCulloch chain saws. My 044 weighs 16 1/2 Lbs full of fuel, and bar oil, where my Mac 10-10 Automatic weighs 18Lbs full of fuel, and bar oil.
My Pro Mac 700 with a 24" bar and chain, full of fuel and bar oil weighs
22 1/2 Lbs.
With the muffler modification I did with my 044, I know that I'm putting out a bit more power than it was at 70 cc's stock, like my Pro Mac 700, and probably a bit faster in the cut than my Pro Mac 700, but I don't know by how much, because I never tried to do a speed test with them.
Bruce.

__________________
McCulloch chain saws
1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's,
2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener,
1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver
2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10
Stihl chain saws
2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084,
Strunk chain saws
1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special
Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

windthrown

Well, so? I have had both a 660 and a 460. Heavy saws, and more vibration prone. Also my DP 044 is woods ported now. It will spank a 460, my old one and your's included.

044/440 is lighter and a lot smoother than either the 460 or the 660. The 440 weighs about 3/4 a pound less than the 460, and over 2-1/2 pounds less than the 660. The 440 has less and is better balanced on vibration as well; left/right vibration in meters/sec.*sec. measured: 4.2/4.5 on the 440, 4.2/6.0 on the 460, and 4.1/5.9 on the 660. Not that a 440 is going to replace a 660. The 440 can match a 460 though with a DP muffler, and beat it with a woods port. The 441 has them all beat on smooth; 3.1/3.3 on the richter scale.

I have to agree with Bruce on the vibration and weight thing. My right shoulder is a phucked up now, and my left forearm has tendonitis to the point that my left hand goes numb on me. Smoother and lighter saws are far better on your body over time. Using a saw that will rattle your teeth fillings out is not a good thing. I used to run MACs and my dad's Homelites. I was a lot younger then, but it was a work out using them. I also go with Stihls mainly becasue they are the saws that I know. I can fix them all and I know their quirks. If anything, the 440 has the weakest case bearings compared to the 660s, but my 660 blew a clutch side case bearing just the same. I look at Huskys frm time to time, but they have their issues and they run a different bar and chain and I would have to go to a different parts store, and heck, I cen get Stihl parts all over. They also all have the same starting levers, and start pretty much the same. I would probably have a Dolmar or two if I could buy one here, but that's another story.

Willard Holmen

Well said. If there is one major beef I have with Husky its their on/off switches. It drives me crazy when I run the 372 or 395 and 346 on a job together. The 346 has a complete opposite switch to the 372-395. They should make them standard on one style. But the 346 switch is the closest thing to a Stihl master control switch.
Willard.

Cole

wow bruce thats interesting as, haha i knew windy would bite... mac obviously had a diffrent reputaion in usa than they did in aus they have always been shit here.....i cant get over the weight. all my saws are pretty new so all have good anti-vibe, except for my 034-190ce and ive got a 064 that needs a lil work.... the 044 bruce/windy i know how much you guys swear by the 044 and you mod it etc etc and yeah the 044 still is a good saw WAS a good saw which they stopped making for a reason....there old hat now. 12month old ms460 with wojo would spank an 044, like the weight difference matters c'mon, the isnt even a comparison, yeah the 441 is smooth as the first time i used it i brought the revs up to half way and cut some small eucalypt and it was smooth as couldnt beleive it, if your moding your saws there gonna rev more which is more vibration, my 381 has 72..2cc right but the 441 has 70.7cc but the 441 has more power and beats the 381