3/8 standard vs 3/8 low profile; and vs .325

Cole · 17th November 2009, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolmenTree

Well said. If there is one major beef I have with Husky its their on/off switches. It drives me crazy when I run the 372 or 395 and 346 on a job together. The 346 has a complete opposite switch to the 372-395. They should make them standard on one style. But the 346 switch is the closest thing to a Stihl master control switch.
Willard.

yeah id agree with you on that wilard, and you need a wrench to open to air box, well i do anyway, dont like the switch on the ms260 or the 034 the bigger saws are way easier

Bruce Hopf · 17th November 2009, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cole

wow bruce thats interesting as, haha i knew windy would bite... mac obviously had a diffrent reputaion in usa than they did in aus they have always been shit here.....i cant get over the weight. all my saws are pretty new so all have good anti-vibe, except for my 034-190ce and ive got a 064 that needs a lil work.... the 044 bruce/windy i know how much you guys swear by the 044 and you mod it etc etc and yeah the 044 still is a good saw WAS a good saw which they stopped making for a reason....there old hat now. 12month old ms460 with wojo would spank an 044, like the weight difference matters c'mon, the isnt even a comparison, yeah the 441 is smooth as the first time i used it i brought the revs up to half way and cut some small eucalypt and it was smooth as couldnt beleive it, if your moding your saws there gonna rev more which is more vibration, my 381 has 72..2cc right but the 441 has 70.7cc and whoops the 381 which mind you has really good anti-vibe ???

I don't know what models of McCulloch chain saws that you had, or have over there, but the last McCulloch that Dad bought new in 1981, was the Pro Mac 700. McCulloch at that time, didn't own McCulloch any more.
If I remember rightly, over here in Canada anyway, McCulloch was owned by Black and Decker, and the service side hit the crapper.
Dad had issues with the his Pro Mac 700, and had to take it in. McCulloch had chromed cylinders, and some of the chrome flakes off the walls, well they tried to blame Dad that it was his fault, and he straight gassed the chain saw.
Over here Canadian Tire, carried the McCulloch line, and the store manager, where Dad bought the chain saw, threatened if who ever owned McCulloch at the time, didn't fix the chain saw, and make their customer happy, Canadian Tire would clear all the shelves of McCulloch products, in one day.
Sad that that they had to go that way, but everything went down hill for McCulloch from then on. Models, to service, you name it.
The McCulloch 10 Series chain saws, like in my signature, where pretty much built the same, and a lot of parts could be transferred to another chain saw, from another, without any difficulty. Bruce.

Cole · 17th November 2009, 09:33 AM

yeah right black and decker make heaps of shit here everything from toasters and kettle's to power drills and brush cutters

windthrown · 17th November 2009, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cole

wow bruce thats interesting as, haha i knew windy would bite... mac obviously had a diffrent reputaion in usa than they did in aus they have always been shit here.....i cant get over the weight. all my saws are pretty new so all have good anti-vibe, except for my 034-190ce and ive got a 064 that needs a lil work.... the 044 bruce/windy i know how much you guys swear by the 044 and you mod it etc etc and yeah the 044 still is a good saw WAS a good saw which they stopped making for a reason....there old hat now. 12month old ms460 with wojo would spank an 044, like the weight difference matters c'mon, the isnt even a comparison, yeah the 441 is smooth as the first time i used it i brought the revs up to half way and cut some small eucalypt and it was smooth as couldnt beleive it, if your moding your saws there gonna rev more which is more vibration, my 381 has 72..2cc right but the 441 has 70.7cc but the 441 has more power and beats the 381

I know Scott Wojo. I bought my GB bars from him here. For a 361 I can see going with one of his mufflers. I have to ask though, why buy a Wojo modded 460 muffler whan you can get a Stihl DP cover for way le$$? $35 for a Stihl 460 DP muffer here, fits both the 440 and the 460 just fine. Also a woods ported 044 will cream a DP 460. No comparison running ported saws to simple muffler modded ones, even on slightly larger saws. Different world. Also an 440 BB has the exact same displacement as a stock 460. And that 3/4 of a pound does make a difference. You will get older, and you will come to undershand what a difference that can make. I also like the balance of the 044 better. Never mind the vibration, which is far worse on the 460. The numbers I posted are for brand new saws. The 460 has 33% more vibration on the right side than the 440. More revs does not always equate to more vibs. Higher frequency in many cases will actually result in less vibration. That is the case on my modded 026s. I do not tweek my saws much over 14,000 RPM though. The bearings and rods were not made for much higher an RPM. The trick with woods porting is to let them breath better, stay cooler, and have more compression for more power. You can up the revs some, but over 15k RPM you are asking for trouble.

As for the 440, that was the king of logging saws here in the PNW. Since they stopped selling them loggers are buying the 460, and a lot are flipping to the 372xp (later, larger model). The 441 here was never loved by most of the loggers that I know (some do like them though). In the old days when I was a tyke, MAC was king here in the PNW. Some used Homelites, but they were a distant second. MACs were loved and used here for years and years. Now it is actually owned by Husky (the brand name anyway). MAC has been crap for years now. Stihl took over the market here with the 038, and that was later redesigned into the 044 here in the states. 380s are now the 381, not much different, and still made and sold in a lot of places in the world. They still sell the 440 in other places too, but not here. EPA regulations, and Stihl needed a saw to test the strato engine on. So the 441 was it. Now the 361 is being phased out with the 362, also a strato engine design. That saw is also 3/4 of a pound heavier than the 361, and the weight is noticable to me. They had to tweek more power out of it so that it would have almost the same power to weight ratio as the 361, which is what you are after in saws. More power to weight = better work saw. But the Euro model 361 has the same power as the 362, and it weighs 3/4 of a pound less.

If you do not notice weight in your saws, just lug around a 660 all day. Drop trees and limb with it... and age pretty fast.

Cole · 17th November 2009, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windthrown

I know Scott Wojo. I bought my GB bars from him here. For a 361 I can see going with one of his mufflers. I have to ask though, why buy a Wojo modded 460 muffler whan you can get a Stihl DP cover for way le$$? $35 for a Stihl 460 DP muffer here, fits both the 440 and the 460 just fine. Also a woods ported 044 will cream a DP 460. No comparison running ported saws to simple muffler modded ones, even on slightly larger saws. Different world. Also an 440 BB has the exact same displacement as a stock 460. And that 3/4 of a pound does make a difference. You will get older, and you will come to undershand what a difference that can make. I also like the balance of the 044 better. Never mind the vibration, which is far worse on the 460. The numbers I posted are for brand new saws. The 460 has 33% more vibration on the right side than the 440. More revs does not always equate to more vibs. Higher frequency in many cases will actually result in less vibration. That is the case on my modded 026s. I do not tweek my saws much over 14,000 RPM though. The bearings and rods were not made for much higher an RPM. The trick with woods porting is to let them breath better, stay cooler, and have more compression for more power. You can up the revs some, but over 15k RPM you are asking for trouble.

As for the 440, that was the king of logging saws here in the PNW. Since they stopped selling them loggers are buying the 460, and a lot are flipping to the 372xp (later, larger model). The 441 here was never loved by most of the loggers that I know (some do like them though). In the old days when I was a tyke, MAC was king here in the PNW. Some used Homelites, but they were a distant second. MACs were loved and used here for years and years. Now it is actually owned by Husky (the brand name anyway). MAC has been crap for years now. Stihl took over the market here with the 038, and that was later redesigned into the 044 here in the states. 380s are now the 381, not much different, and still made and sold in a lot of places in the world. They still sell the 440 in other places too, but not here. EPA regulations, and Stihl needed a saw to test the strato engine on. So the 441 was it. Now the 361 is being phased out with the 362, also a strato engine design. That saw is also 3/4 of a pound heavier than the 361, and the weight is noticable to me. They had to tweek more power out of it so that it would have almost the same power to weight ratio as the 361, which is what you are after in saws. More power to weight = better work saw. But the Euro model 361 has the same power as the 362, and it weighs 3/4 of a pound less.

If you do not notice weight in your saws, just lug around a 660 all day. Drop trees and limb with it... and age pretty fast.

thats my point windy you have to mod the shit out of a however many year old saw to acheive roughly the same results or better as a new saw i wonder how the rest of the saw is coping with extra power & rpm as the years pass by, i bet they arent as reliable as factory saw , you said ur 044 had a DP not woods ported...all of a sudden it does hmm strange....what is a DP muffer i dont have a wojo on my 460 either.a new ported ms460 would smash any 044 out of the park, if u need more power get a bigger saw and be done with it haha,i climb trees and do forest clearing and re-gen work so trust me got a pretty good idea of saws weight, yeah 361 is the same as 044 tho great saw old stock, 441 and 362 less emissions and vibration than predacessors, saws with less emission is a good thing right, power to weight is important yeah but its not massive, arborists have diffrent needs i guess to firewood guys ay.. im the wrong person to complain about lugging a saw around to ay, where i come from bigger saws bigger trees if u cant hack it too bad so sad...i switch off when i start hearing anything but stihl or husky sorry windy really i dont care for the other shit out there.

windthrown · 17th November 2009, 08:04 PM

Around here we would call you a bone head. There are a lot of us bone heads around here too. However, it is the other way around now. New saws now are all smogged to death. Starto engines, choked up mufflers, limited fixed jet carbs, all set to run so lean that a lot of them fry. Now older saws are lighter and have more power, like the 361 compared to the 362. My modded 044 has more power than a 441 or a 460, and weighs less. The reason I mod saws is that I get way more power to weight ratio. And they are not very hard to do. Maybe a half day with a few tools in the shop, and off they go. They run cooler, better, faster, and even last longer. They also start easier.

From what I have seen, woods modded saws actually last longer than most stock ones do. Mainly becasue they run cooler from the better air flow. Most engine scoring and failures comes from overheating. They are also louder, and in some cases expell more unburned gas than fully choked up saws do. Woods modded saws are limited modifications for every day runner saws though. They are designed to long term use. If you want to race port your saws, then you are taking it to extremes. Those saws are going to have limited life by design, but they scream like raped apes and they win in competition.

You are hung up on new is better, and larger is better. That just ain't so. Yes, you can usually mod a larger saw and get more power out of it. But it is a heavier saw, and a more expensive saw. Also you cannot make the same gains from mods on a 441 that you can with a 440. The starto design prevents a lot of mods. I am of the opinion that you use the smallest saw that you can get away with using, and you will have less wear and tear on yourself at the end of the day, and in the later days of your life. I try to beat this concept into younger people while they still can avoid the mistakes that I did when I was younger. Smoother is better. Lighter is better. Well modded saws run better than stock saws. Way better.

Bigger saws, bigger trees, eh? We have bigger trees up here in the PNW than anyplace else in the world, including Oz. I have logged the worlds two largest tree species up here, those being Coastal Redwoods (#1) and Douglas firs (#2). I logged in the woods here for 4 years. I have also had 2 arbor business. I also cut a shitload of firewood. And as I said, I cut with the smallest/lightest saw I can get away with. That does not mean its the smallest in power. I am not hung up on all the macho BS about big saws, big balls. Of course, I cut with my brain, and not my dick.

Willard Holmen · 18th November 2009, 01:32 AM

For you folks out there concerned about .325 having alot of cutters. I see Bailey's sells Woodland Pro [Carlton] 20RCS .325-.050 chisel chain in full skip tooth sequence. Oregon's is the 20JP.
Excellent fast cutting chain in softwood, but might be a little less desirable for dry hardwood.
One more roll of chain I'll have to put on my workbench

Willard.

Willard Holmen · 18th November 2009, 02:25 AM

On the PNW USA and Canada, logging on Steep mountain terrain a faller needs all the help he needs plus the legs of a quarter horse.
This is where woods porting pretty much originated. Second growth timber doesn't necessarily call for a Husky 395 or Stihl 660, thats where a Husky 372-390XP or Stihl 440-460 on a 28-32" bar and engine mods comes in. I remember a time around 1982 when logging was at its peak and all Stihl had to offer for a favorite saw was the 056 in medium-big timber and 038 for small timber, that is why alot of fallers were running 80-100 cc Huskies at that time. Not until 1986 was the new generation Stihl 064-084 available.

Here on the plains I never needed a woods ported for logging , only for timbersport competition. A bone stock with muffler mod 044 with 16"-18" bar in small [mostly frozen] timber is blazingly fast. My 17 yr old 066 Mag dual port muffler saw never had its cylinder off and with thousands of hrs on it still has all the power I need. No worries of nikasil flaking here. My tip here: always carry a sharp file when cutting and touch up the chain when needed, a few minutes filing saves many minutes of lost production in an hour with a slightly dull chain. My favorite saw of all time was my 1986 Stihl 064AV 85cc 14.1 lbs, the weight of a Stihl 460. Best woods saw I ever owned.

Willard.

arborjockey · 18th November 2009, 05:00 AM

BMEP Brake Mean Effective Pressures
Which means the point at which parts fly apart/grenade. The saws can manage much more power then stock, and be ok.

Bruce Hopf · 18th November 2009, 10:27 AM

A lot of stuff i do agree with windthrown. I did all my wood cutting with what I thought the best chainsaws ever built, and yes those where McCulloch chain saws.
At one time, you couldn't ever change my mind on that, but that was before I injured my back. I'm 43 years old, and I have to pretty much struggle to get anything done, especially with cutting fire wood.
Last year during the spring of 2008, I had over 40 tree tops that had to be removed from our fields of our farm. During the winter of 2008, we had sold over 350 trees to a saw mill for lumber. A lot of the trees were Ash, and the rest were soft Maple.
After lugging those McCulloch chain saws around all day from cutting, my Mac 10-10 Automatic (18 Lbs with 16" bar, and chain + full of fuel, and bar oil), and my Pro Mac 60 (19 Lbs with 16" bar, and chain + full of fuel, and bar oil), I could hardly walk into the house. I was almost at the point I was crawling with pain, just about would make you cry.
I'd have to take way more Narcotic Pain Killers, that I would normally have to take during a normal day, without doing too much work, at night, to try and ease the pain.
During the night, my left arm, from my neck to the tips of my fingers would be that numb, and my left thumb would ache that bad, I'd want to chop it off with the axe.
I told a few guys this problem that I'd be having after running a chain saw for a few hours, of cutting fire wood, and they told me that those McCulloch chain saws were leaving a beating on me.
A few guys talked me into getting a Stihl 044, and that I would forget about useing the McCulloch chain saws. Well I found one that I could fix up myself, and make into a good running chain saw, to cut fire wood with. It was complete with bar, and chain.
Now I can cut more fire wood in the same two or three hours that I ran my McCulloch chain saws in, sure I'm in a fair amount of pain, but not as bad as I was in before while running my McCulloch chain saws, and my left arm doesn't bother me as much after cutting fire wood either.
Now being that fire wood is the only heat source that I can afford to use during the winter months, in my Wood/Oil Combination Furnace, if it wasn't for me useing the Stihl chain saws that I use, I would probably have to leave the farm, and move somewhere that I'd hate to be, like in town. Been there, done that.
If a modded 044, or 440 can do the same work as a 460, which others have said the 044, and 440 are lighter, why carry a heavier chain saw around to get the job done?
Sure there is a lot harder woods out there than what I have here, like the Ash, Maple, Elm and Oak, that I have here. I could see the need for a more powerful chain saw, like a 660, or along that lines of power, but the weight would be an issue, well with me it would be. Bruce.

Cole · 18th November 2009, 04:48 PM

haha just to inform you people the thread topic hasnt changed to my woods ported 044 will blow anything away....i think ill leave it at that for the sake of my own sanity

Cheers, Cole

windthrown · 20th November 2009, 09:43 AM

What, I cannot hyjack my own thread?

Note points of other posters here, not just mine about modding saws. We got off the the MAC tangent, and that led to a lighter and better power to weight ratio tangent, and hence modded saws, big trees, tendonitis, and whatever else. If you like running stock saws, that's fine. But there is place for lighter modded saws, and modded bars and chains, which leads us back to running picco chain, and .325 with semi or full skip. It all comes down to the torque and speed of that cutter through the wood.

Chips, dips, chains, whips...

SawTroll · 20th November 2009, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windthrown

OK, this thread stems from a 346xp thread that was off on a chain tangent. I decided to make it a thread on its own merrit... and to clarify a lot of that I have read out there over the years, particularly in regard to 3/8 standard chain vs 3/8 low profile (AKA: picco) chain. We can argue about running 3/8 standard (or low profile) chain vs .325 chain here as well (it is inevitable). To start with, all of this is in the ancient English rather than more modern metric measurment system. Do not ask me why that is still the case, it just is.

There are many brands of 'Low Profile 3/8 inch' chain. I have used several, including Oregon, Carlton, and Stihl. Most common low profile chains are semi chisel chains. Stihl calls 3/8 low profile chain 'Picco', but it is pretty much the same as the Carlton low profile chain. 3/8 low profile differs from 3/8 standard chain in most ways. However, and a BIG however, they both have the same (yes, the very exact same) pitch, which is actually 0.367 inch. The term 3/8 inch, or .375 inch refer to the 'relative pitch' and 'near term' number used for 3/8 chain. It was easier to round up to 3/8 rather than call it .367 inch. Marketing hype for you. However, a 100 foot roll of low profile 3/8 chain has 1640 drive links, which is exactly the same number as 3/8 standard chain. What this means is that the pins in the chain links are in the same position, and they rotate on the same axes. In many cases the gauge of the chains are the same as well, in the US at least. Here standard 3/8 and low profile 3/8 inch chains are most commonly 0.050 inch gauge. This is the width of the drivers that set into the bars.

And now for the differences, for which there are many. 3/8 standard chain is larger, stronger and beefier chain. There is no comparison in strength, but both have advantages and disadvantages. 3/8 low profile chain has smaller/shorter drivers than does 3/8 standard chain. Low profile chain is also narrower than 3/8 standard, and thus has a narrower kerf. This is good in that it cuts a thinner slice of wood, and thus requires less energy to do so. The cutters on low profile chain also have a lower profile than 3/8 standard chains do (hence the name), meaning that they sick up above the bar less than 3/8 standard chain cutters do. This is for two reasons, one being that the low profile chain links are not as large as standard links and the other bing that low profile cutters are smaller than those on standard chains, so they do not ride as high. The cutters are also set narrower on the chain, as a consequence of the chain being narrower, and the fact that the cutters are smaller. Typically 3/8 standard semi chisel cutters are sharpened with 7/32 inch files, whereas 3/8 low profile chains are sharpened with 5/32 inch files. Yes, Stihl recommends 13/64 files on their 3/8 standard chains, but I start by filing my new 3/8 standard chains with 7/32 inch files and move down to 3/16 files as the cutters pass the half way wear point (old school Stihl woods filing).

Now for some other differences running these two types of chains, particularly the bars and nose sprockets on bars. Comparing a 3/8 standard and 3/8 low profile bar you will notice that the low profile bars are narrower. The gauges of the slots are the same width, but the rails on the low profile bars are narrower than for standard bars. This is becasue 3/8 low profile chain is narrower than 3/8 standard. Also the nose sprockets are narrower and shorter on low profile bars than standard bars. If you run 3/8 low profile chain on a 3/8 standard bar (as many seem to do) the low profile chain will ride up on the nose sprocket becasue of the narrow width of the chain compared to the width of the nose sprocket. If you try to run a standard chain on a low profile bar, the drivers on the standard chain will not fit into the low profile nose sprocket becasue the 3/8 standard drivers are too big and too deep for the low profile nose. For this reason, many places like Logosol sell hard nose 3/8 standard large format bars w/o nose sprockets to people that want to run 3/8 low profile chain on larger saws with large format mounts.

Stihl has had a few rare 3/8 low profile/picco Rolomatic bars in the larger format 3003 saw mounts with nose sprockets. They had an option here in the states on the early model 024 chainsaws for running picco B&C. However, they stopped selling the larger format picco bars in the USA because people were running them on the likes of 066 large format bar mount chainsaws that will completely overpower the small low profile chains. Logosol sells large format low profile bars for chainsaw milling, and some come up from time to time here in the states on the internet. Overseas, Stihl re-sells Logosol bars (or vice verse, I cannot figure it out). Running picco chains on large format Stihl saws are the darling of the chainsaw mill crowd. The reason being that the narrow kerf makes a better/finer cut in the wood, and the kerf is narrower meaing that there is less wood cut, so the saws run cooler and smoother. Overheating is a typical problem when running chainsaw mill saws. Also note that most Logosol bars sold as low profile large mount picco bars (at least for Stihl) are typically solid nose bars. This is to get around the 3/8 low profile chain riding up on the 3/8 standard nose sprockets. Also the low profile/picco chains typically used for chainsaw milling are special ripping chains. And yes, they sell them for Husky and Efco saws as well (though I am not nearly as familiar with those saws and the bars run on them; I am a Stihlhead StihlBilly).

Quote:

Originally Posted by windthrown

Saw sprockets/rims are another matter when running Stihl 3/8 low profile chain. Note that small mount 3/8 low profile picco bars and chains are cheap and easy to find on Stihls. They are common on 200, 210/211 and 170/180 size saws. Finding rim drives for them are another matter though. I could never find any mini spline picco rims that fit my 025/250s mini spline clutch drums. Baileys lists a 7 pin 'mini spline' Stihl picco rims for $14 each (ouch!). However, they show the same part number on that as the Stihl small spline rim drive, so I have to wonder what exactly they are selling as a picco mini spline rim: Stihl PN 0000 642 1240. I never found a mini rim in picco in my long search, and I eventually gave up. So I ran with tooth/spur sprockets on my 025/250s with Picco B&C. I did find and buy some small spline 7 pin picco rims that I got from one Stihl dealer (for fairly cheap). It seems that the only Stihl Picco rims that exist are in 7 and 8 pin configurations formatted on the small spline. The 024, 026 and 025 Stihl IPLs have the Stihl part numbers. Supposedly they were originally made for the 024 with the picco B&C. Also many people run the likes of their 440s and 660s with Picco use sprur sprockets becasue of the lack of standard size Picco rims. I have never found any large spline rims that fit a Stihl 360 and up large format bar size. If you run a 3/8 standard rim with Picco chain, there is just too much slop in the drive and it will not run well.

I am setting up my third 026 to run picco now. I have one 026 that I run with a 16 inch 3/8 standard B&C. I have another that I run with a 16 inch .325 B&C. I am rebuilding abother 026 that I just got from Lakeside. I am setting that saw up with a 16 inch picco B&C. I did not plan it this way, it just happened to be with the bars I got these saws with, or what I had around from other saws. It will be interesting to make comparisons using them. I have been arguing that 3/8 standard chain pretty much cuts the same as .325, and that is what I have seen with my two 026s set up with both. I also found that picco ran better/faster on my 025s than running with .325. I hated running .325 on small format Stihl saws, but they were the only size rims that I could get in the mini spline. The main difference between the 3/8 standard and .325 is that the .325 has more cutters per inch than the 3/8 does. Other than that they have about the same (fat) kerf (as I have measured) and similar chain size. There is also no such thing as narrow Stihl .325 kerf chain or bars. I looked and looked for that stuff for years. Ain't no such beast any more (at least not here in the states). I have done a lot of comparison cutting between 3/8 standard and .325 on my 026s, and I really do not see much difference. .325 is smoother from more cutters, but the kerf is the same, so the same energy has to go into the cuts. On my 025 I found that the .325 wandered in the cut, and the bar tended to pinch all the time. I have argued that this is common, and that all the used small format .325 bars that I see tend to have all the paint missing on them (seemingly from the pinched bars in cuts). I have read many places that people swear by .325. I swapped over to 3/8 standard chain becasue I want to run all one B&C types on my saws. I will have two exceptions to that though, being the one .325 and one picco for my 026 fleet. Over time I shall see which B&C combination wins out in the 50cc saw class (the Lakeside saw will also get a full woods porting, so I will have a 60cc saw "equivalent" to test as well).

Some Picco rim drive part numbers from Stihl IPLs:

Small spline rims for the 024/026 and 025:
7 pin small spline rim: 0000 642 1240
8 pin small spline rim: 0000 642 1241

OK, there went my 6 pack of beer... time to start in on the tequilla.

That is about 100% correct as far as I know....

Just a few comments;

- the fact that .325 cuts the same kerf as (full size) 3/8" is a Stihl only thing. That is part of the reason that I prefere Oregon LP to Stihl RSC in .325 (in addition the LP cutters are much longer, taper off much less abruptly, and surely will last longer)

- the MS660 Logosol stuff is sold by Stihl over here, but no rim sprocket is offered, only spur (I guess that confirms what you suggested regarding std 7 rims in LP/Picco).

Very good thread!

SawTroll · 20th November 2009, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Hopf

I run Carlton 3/8" semi chisel on my 034, with a 16" bar, Carlton 3/8" semi chisel, and Stihl chain (have no idea if it is semi chisel, or chisel) both with a 20" bar on my 044.
I also have a 16 bar that I'm using from another 034 that I have as a project saw, with semi chisel on my 044 as well. I also have a couple of 16" Stihl chains that I'm using as well, that I have in circulation with the rest of my 16" chains
My 024, and 026 I run .325 on both. Bruce.

If I knew that little of what I was doing, I sure wouldn't post about it.....

Sorry, but couldn't resist!

Bruce Hopf · 21st November 2009, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SawTroll

If I knew that little of what I was doing, I sure wouldn't post about it.....

Sorry, but couldn't resist!

Not every one knows how the Stihl numbering system works. It confuses some people. Me especially, so if you don't mind not being a Smart Alec for a few minutes, explain to me please what the Semi Chisel numbering system is, and the numbering system for Chisel, that way I, and others would be able to look at the box, and say OK, I have this.
Sorry I couldn't resist about the Smart Alec bit. Bruce.

windthrown · 21st November 2009, 07:38 AM

The Stihl chain "Marketing Number System" confuses even the Stihl dealers. I asked one dealer for RM 3/8" full comp, and he just stared at me, and asked, "What's that?" I had to explain that its Rapid Micro, semi-chisel, 3/8 standard non-skip chain. He said, "Oh, I don't have any of that." Closest he had was full skip RMF and the old RM2 safety chain. I never did figure out all the Stihl chain letter and number designations. They are too confusing. Why have a number 3 for 3/8" when you could just say 3/8"??? Why call full chisel 'super', and semi chisel 'micro'? Maybe its a "Lost in German translation" thing? It should be called the, "Confusing Number System." I just look at the chain and I know what I like to run (semi-chisel, it does not cut as fast, but it cuts in crud and stays sharp longer than full chisel).

As for the difference in full and semi chisel chain, full chisel has a squared top outside edge to it. Semi-chisel has a rounded or beveled outside edge to it. Stihl calls semi chisel 'Micro' and designates it with an M. Stihl calls their full chisel chain 'Super', and designates it with an S. Of course, S also means 'Special', whatever that is. Multiple lettering system... Confused? Maybe they were the ones that came up with the Enigma encoder/decoder system during WWII?

Here is the Stihl Chain ID guide on their web site. Have at it:

Identifying Saw Chain - STIHL USA

Bruce Hopf · 21st November 2009, 11:07 AM

Thanks again windthrown, for the information. I looked at a couple of my Stihl Chains, and I have Chisel chains here that I run on my 044, along with Carlton Semi Chisel chains. Bruce.

Bruce Hopf · 21st November 2009, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SawTroll

If I knew that little of what I was doing, I sure wouldn't post about it.....

Sorry, but couldn't resist!

You know I've been doing a lot of thinking about your comment. This crap was, is and has been pulled a lot over at AS, where some people like yourself, would go way out of his road, to make someone look bad.
Instead of letting someone know what to look for, and explain the differences with the Stihl chains, like windthrown has, you decided to show everyone what kind of a jerk you are. Sorry for the vent, but it is true. Bruce.

windthrown · 21st November 2009, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Hopf

You know I've been doing a lot of thinking about your comment. This crap was, is and has been pulled a lot over at AS, where some people like yourself, would go way out of his road, to make someone look bad.
Instead of letting someone know what to look for, and explain the differences with the Stihl chains, like windthrown has, you decided to show everyone what kind of a jerk you are. Sorry for the vent, but it is true. Bruce.

Knowing the Troll as well as I do, I know that he was joking. He also said so, and appologised in advance in the post. Sorry that his English is not perfect, he speaks several languages. The Troll is not a Jerk. Terse, yes, and technical, yes, and Norse. Different culture. I do not agree with him on a lot of things. But really. Chiding, yes, teasing, yes, not ment in bad taste. Its the web, and yah have to have thick skin in these places. And this place is a long shot from AS.

Its cold and dark up there at the top of the world in Norway. No sun in Tromso for months. Must be a bitch without his wife as well (she died last year). Hell, I miss my ex this winter. *sigh* Frikken cold here today. Driving rain, snow at low elevations... Ski Patrol tomorrow is going to be a bitch. White-out conditions, and a lot of people will be on the mountain Johnsen to ski for the first weekend of the year. I will be peeling people off of trees no doubt. *sigh*

Willard Holmen · 23rd November 2009, 05:50 AM

I second that.
SawTroll is a true gentlemen and I have all the respect in the world for him. The man is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to saws and other things of interest.
Willard.

Willard Holmen · 23rd November 2009, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SawTroll

That is about 100% correct as far as I know....

Just a few comments;

- the fact that .325 cuts the same kerf as (full size) 3/8" is a Stihl only thing. That is part of the reason that I prefere Oregon LP to Stihl RSC in .325 (in addition the LP cutters are much longer, taper off much less abruptly, and surely will last longer)

- the MS660 Logosol stuff is sold by Stihl over here, but no rim sprocket is offered, only spur (I guess that confirms what you suggested regarding std 7 rims in LP/Picco).

Very good thread!

Yes I too agree. Its only a Stihl thing. Also the full size Stihl RS 3/8 chain has a real wide cutting kerf.
Willard.

Willard Holmen · 25th November 2009, 11:45 AM

Well my Stihl 3/8" Picco 8T rim finally came in, part# 0000 642 1241. This is the rim for the 026. It is only a mini 7 spline bore so it won't fit the 346XP, 034, 036 small spline drums.
From the photo I show here the standard 3/8" 33RS chain won't fit the Picco 3/8" rim on the left, drive links too big.
The Picco chain fits the 3/8" standard 8T rim on the right. Of interest the 8T Picco rim is slightly larger in diameter then the standard 8T rim.
Now I can't find a ipl for a 034 so I can see if a 3/8" Picco 7 or 8T rim is available in small spline bore. From what SawTroll says a Picco sprocket is available for the 066/660 but only in spur drum. Does anyone have access to a 034 or 036 ipl?
Willard.

Bruce Hopf · 25th November 2009, 12:13 PM

Hope this will help. STIHL T.I.S. . For the user, put stihl, and for the passward use internet, the way I have it here. Bruce.

Willard Holmen · 25th November 2009, 12:36 PM

Thanks alot Bruce, I found 4 different part # 3/8" 7T small spline bore rims for the 034 but there is no Picco listed. One# is 0000 642 1249 which might be the Picco rim seeing the 026's 3/8" 8T Picco mini spline rim is 0000 642 1241.
I guess I'll have to order that one too!

Willard.

Bruce Hopf · 25th November 2009, 12:41 PM

No problem Willard. I have it on my Favorites list, so when I need to go there and find something, I open my Favorites file, scroll down to the website listing, and click, and then presto. Bruce.

Willard Holmen · 25th November 2009, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Hopf

No problem Willard. I have it on my Favorites list, so when I need to go there and find something, I open my Favorites file, scroll down to the website listing, and click, and then presto. Bruce.

I did the same, thanks again Bruce.
Is this legal if we're not Stihl dealers?

Willard.

Bruce Hopf · 25th November 2009, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolmenTree

I did the same, thanks again Bruce.
Is this legal if we're not Stihl dealers?

Willard.

I don't know. I found it on another web site like this one here, and no it wasn't Master Bater's website.

. Bruce.

Willard Holmen · 26th November 2009, 01:47 PM

Well Windy I hate to discredit you but your information in post #1 about 3/8 standard and 3/8 lo pro both having the exact same pitch is wrong. From my previous post #52 I compare a Picco 3/8 lo pro 8T rim and a 3/8 standard 8T rim. The Picco 8T rim is 1/16" or a little over 1mm larger in diameter then the standard 8T rim. So the pitch is not the same, I guess thats where the lo pro "extended pitch" term comes in.
Don't try and measure the rims from my photo for comparison because the camera was not straight on so the Picco really looks alot bigger.
Yep 1/16" difference.
Willard.

17th November 2009, 09:33 AM	#33
Cole Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Canberra Posts: 214	Re: 3/8 standard vs 3/8 low profile; and vs .325 yeah right black and decker make heaps of shit here everything from toasters and kettle's to power drills and brush cutters

17th November 2009, 08:04 PM	#36
windthrown Former Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: In the Great Pacific Northwest Posts: 1,207	Re: 3/8 standard vs 3/8 low profile; and vs .325 Around here we would call you a bone head. There are a lot of us bone heads around here too. However, it is the other way around now. New saws now are all smogged to death. Starto engines, choked up mufflers, limited fixed jet carbs, all set to run so lean that a lot of them fry. Now older saws are lighter and have more power, like the 361 compared to the 362. My modded 044 has more power than a 441 or a 460, and weighs less. The reason I mod saws is that I get way more power to weight ratio. And they are not very hard to do. Maybe a half day with a few tools in the shop, and off they go. They run cooler, better, faster, and even last longer. They also start easier. From what I have seen, woods modded saws actually last longer than most stock ones do. Mainly becasue they run cooler from the better air flow. Most engine scoring and failures comes from overheating. They are also louder, and in some cases expell more unburned gas than fully choked up saws do. Woods modded saws are limited modifications for every day runner saws though. They are designed to long term use. If you want to race port your saws, then you are taking it to extremes. Those saws are going to have limited life by design, but they scream like raped apes and they win in competition. You are hung up on new is better, and larger is better. That just ain't so. Yes, you can usually mod a larger saw and get more power out of it. But it is a heavier saw, and a more expensive saw. Also you cannot make the same gains from mods on a 441 that you can with a 440. The starto design prevents a lot of mods. I am of the opinion that you use the smallest saw that you can get away with using, and you will have less wear and tear on yourself at the end of the day, and in the later days of your life. I try to beat this concept into younger people while they still can avoid the mistakes that I did when I was younger. Smoother is better. Lighter is better. Well modded saws run better than stock saws. Way better. Bigger saws, bigger trees, eh? We have bigger trees up here in the PNW than anyplace else in the world, including Oz. I have logged the worlds two largest tree species up here, those being Coastal Redwoods (#1) and Douglas firs (#2). I logged in the woods here for 4 years. I have also had 2 arbor business. I also cut a shitload of firewood. And as I said, I cut with the smallest/lightest saw I can get away with. That does not mean its the smallest in power. I am not hung up on all the macho BS about big saws, big balls. Of course, I cut with my brain, and not my dick.

18th November 2009, 01:32 AM	#37
Willard Holmen Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Manitoba, Canada Posts: 650	Re: 3/8 standard vs 3/8 low profile; and vs .325 For you folks out there concerned about .325 having alot of cutters. I see Bailey's sells Woodland Pro [Carlton] 20RCS .325-.050 chisel chain in full skip tooth sequence. Oregon's is the 20JP. Excellent fast cutting chain in softwood, but might be a little less desirable for dry hardwood. One more roll of chain I'll have to put on my workbench Willard.

18th November 2009, 02:25 AM	#38
Willard Holmen Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Manitoba, Canada Posts: 650	Re: 3/8 standard vs 3/8 low profile; and vs .325 On the PNW USA and Canada, logging on Steep mountain terrain a faller needs all the help he needs plus the legs of a quarter horse. This is where woods porting pretty much originated. Second growth timber doesn't necessarily call for a Husky 395 or Stihl 660, thats where a Husky 372-390XP or Stihl 440-460 on a 28-32" bar and engine mods comes in. I remember a time around 1982 when logging was at its peak and all Stihl had to offer for a favorite saw was the 056 in medium-big timber and 038 for small timber, that is why alot of fallers were running 80-100 cc Huskies at that time. Not until 1986 was the new generation Stihl 064-084 available. Here on the plains I never needed a woods ported for logging , only for timbersport competition. A bone stock with muffler mod 044 with 16"-18" bar in small [mostly frozen] timber is blazingly fast. My 17 yr old 066 Mag dual port muffler saw never had its cylinder off and with thousands of hrs on it still has all the power I need. No worries of nikasil flaking here. My tip here: always carry a sharp file when cutting and touch up the chain when needed, a few minutes filing saves many minutes of lost production in an hour with a slightly dull chain. My favorite saw of all time was my 1986 Stihl 064AV 85cc 14.1 lbs, the weight of a Stihl 460. Best woods saw I ever owned. Willard.

18th November 2009, 05:00 AM	#39
arborjockey Mature tree Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: hawaii. ohio. oregon. california Posts: 259	Re: 3/8 standard vs 3/8 low profile; and vs .325 BMEP Brake Mean Effective Pressures Which means the point at which parts fly apart/grenade. The saws can manage much more power then stock, and be ok.

18th November 2009, 10:27 AM	#40
Bruce Hopf Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: North of Sebringville, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,167	Re: 3/8 standard vs 3/8 low profile; and vs .325 A lot of stuff i do agree with windthrown. I did all my wood cutting with what I thought the best chainsaws ever built, and yes those where McCulloch chain saws. At one time, you couldn't ever change my mind on that, but that was before I injured my back. I'm 43 years old, and I have to pretty much struggle to get anything done, especially with cutting fire wood. Last year during the spring of 2008, I had over 40 tree tops that had to be removed from our fields of our farm. During the winter of 2008, we had sold over 350 trees to a saw mill for lumber. A lot of the trees were Ash, and the rest were soft Maple. After lugging those McCulloch chain saws around all day from cutting, my Mac 10-10 Automatic (18 Lbs with 16" bar, and chain + full of fuel, and bar oil), and my Pro Mac 60 (19 Lbs with 16" bar, and chain + full of fuel, and bar oil), I could hardly walk into the house. I was almost at the point I was crawling with pain, just about would make you cry. I'd have to take way more Narcotic Pain Killers, that I would normally have to take during a normal day, without doing too much work, at night, to try and ease the pain. During the night, my left arm, from my neck to the tips of my fingers would be that numb, and my left thumb would ache that bad, I'd want to chop it off with the axe. I told a few guys this problem that I'd be having after running a chain saw for a few hours, of cutting fire wood, and they told me that those McCulloch chain saws were leaving a beating on me. A few guys talked me into getting a Stihl 044, and that I would forget about useing the McCulloch chain saws. Well I found one that I could fix up myself, and make into a good running chain saw, to cut fire wood with. It was complete with bar, and chain. Now I can cut more fire wood in the same two or three hours that I ran my McCulloch chain saws in, sure I'm in a fair amount of pain, but not as bad as I was in before while running my McCulloch chain saws, and my left arm doesn't bother me as much after cutting fire wood either. Now being that fire wood is the only heat source that I can afford to use during the winter months, in my Wood/Oil Combination Furnace, if it wasn't for me useing the Stihl chain saws that I use, I would probably have to leave the farm, and move somewhere that I'd hate to be, like in town. Been there, done that. If a modded 044, or 440 can do the same work as a 460, which others have said the 044, and 440 are lighter, why carry a heavier chain saw around to get the job done? Sure there is a lot harder woods out there than what I have here, like the Ash, Maple, Elm and Oak, that I have here. I could see the need for a more powerful chain saw, like a 660, or along that lines of power, but the weight would be an issue, well with me it would be. Bruce. __________________ McCulloch chain saws 1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's, 2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener, 1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver 2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10 Stihl chain saws 2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084, Strunk chain saws 1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

18th November 2009, 04:48 PM	#41
Cole Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Canberra Posts: 214	Re: 3/8 standard vs 3/8 low profile; and vs .325 haha just to inform you people the thread topic hasnt changed to my woods ported 044 will blow anything away....i think ill leave it at that for the sake of my own sanity Cheers, Cole

20th November 2009, 09:43 AM	#42
windthrown Former Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: In the Great Pacific Northwest Posts: 1,207	Re: 3/8 standard vs 3/8 low profile; and vs .325 What, I cannot hyjack my own thread? Note points of other posters here, not just mine about modding saws. We got off the the MAC tangent, and that led to a lighter and better power to weight ratio tangent, and hence modded saws, big trees, tendonitis, and whatever else. If you like running stock saws, that's fine. But there is place for lighter modded saws, and modded bars and chains, which leads us back to running picco chain, and .325 with semi or full skip. It all comes down to the torque and speed of that cutter through the wood. Chips, dips, chains, whips...

21st November 2009, 07:38 AM	#46
windthrown Former Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: In the Great Pacific Northwest Posts: 1,207	Re: 3/8 standard vs 3/8 low profile; and vs .325 The Stihl chain "Marketing Number System" confuses even the Stihl dealers. I asked one dealer for RM 3/8" full comp, and he just stared at me, and asked, "What's that?" I had to explain that its Rapid Micro, semi-chisel, 3/8 standard non-skip chain. He said, "Oh, I don't have any of that." Closest he had was full skip RMF and the old RM2 safety chain. I never did figure out all the Stihl chain letter and number designations. They are too confusing. Why have a number 3 for 3/8" when you could just say 3/8"??? Why call full chisel 'super', and semi chisel 'micro'? Maybe its a "Lost in German translation" thing? It should be called the, "Confusing Number System." I just look at the chain and I know what I like to run (semi-chisel, it does not cut as fast, but it cuts in crud and stays sharp longer than full chisel). As for the difference in full and semi chisel chain, full chisel has a squared top outside edge to it. Semi-chisel has a rounded or beveled outside edge to it. Stihl calls semi chisel 'Micro' and designates it with an M. Stihl calls their full chisel chain 'Super', and designates it with an S. Of course, S also means 'Special', whatever that is. Multiple lettering system... Confused? Maybe they were the ones that came up with the Enigma encoder/decoder system during WWII? Here is the Stihl Chain ID guide on their web site. Have at it: Identifying Saw Chain - STIHL USA

21st November 2009, 11:07 AM	#47
Bruce Hopf Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: North of Sebringville, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,167	Re: 3/8 standard vs 3/8 low profile; and vs .325 Thanks again windthrown, for the information. I looked at a couple of my Stihl Chains, and I have Chisel chains here that I run on my 044, along with Carlton Semi Chisel chains. Bruce. __________________ McCulloch chain saws 1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's, 2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener, 1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver 2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10 Stihl chain saws 2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084, Strunk chain saws 1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

23rd November 2009, 05:50 AM	#50
Willard Holmen Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Manitoba, Canada Posts: 650	Re: 3/8 standard vs 3/8 low profile; and vs .325 I second that. SawTroll is a true gentlemen and I have all the respect in the world for him. The man is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to saws and other things of interest. Willard.

25th November 2009, 11:45 AM	#52
Willard Holmen Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Manitoba, Canada Posts: 650	Re: 3/8 standard vs 3/8 low profile; and vs .325 Well my Stihl 3/8" Picco 8T rim finally came in, part# 0000 642 1241. This is the rim for the 026. It is only a mini 7 spline bore so it won't fit the 346XP, 034, 036 small spline drums. From the photo I show here the standard 3/8" 33RS chain won't fit the Picco 3/8" rim on the left, drive links too big. The Picco chain fits the 3/8" standard 8T rim on the right. Of interest the 8T Picco rim is slightly larger in diameter then the standard 8T rim. Now I can't find a ipl for a 034 so I can see if a 3/8" Picco 7 or 8T rim is available in small spline bore. From what SawTroll says a Picco sprocket is available for the 066/660 but only in spur drum. Does anyone have access to a 034 or 036 ipl? Willard. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by Willard Holmen; 25th November 2009 at 12:17 PM.

25th November 2009, 12:13 PM	#53
Bruce Hopf Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: North of Sebringville, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,167	Re: 3/8 standard vs 3/8 low profile; and vs .325 Hope this will help. STIHL T.I.S. . For the user, put stihl, and for the passward use internet, the way I have it here. Bruce. __________________ McCulloch chain saws 1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's, 2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener, 1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver 2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10 Stihl chain saws 2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084, Strunk chain saws 1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

25th November 2009, 12:36 PM	#54
Willard Holmen Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Manitoba, Canada Posts: 650	Re: 3/8 standard vs 3/8 low profile; and vs .325 Thanks alot Bruce, I found 4 different part # 3/8" 7T small spline bore rims for the 034 but there is no Picco listed. One# is 0000 642 1249 which might be the Picco rim seeing the 026's 3/8" 8T Picco mini spline rim is 0000 642 1241. I guess I'll have to order that one too! Willard.

25th November 2009, 12:41 PM	#55
Bruce Hopf Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: North of Sebringville, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,167	Re: 3/8 standard vs 3/8 low profile; and vs .325 No problem Willard. I have it on my Favorites list, so when I need to go there and find something, I open my Favorites file, scroll down to the website listing, and click, and then presto. Bruce. __________________ McCulloch chain saws 1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's, 2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener, 1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver 2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10 Stihl chain saws 2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084, Strunk chain saws 1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

26th November 2009, 01:47 PM	#58
Willard Holmen Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Manitoba, Canada Posts: 650	Re: 3/8 standard vs 3/8 low profile; and vs .325 Well Windy I hate to discredit you but your information in post #1 about 3/8 standard and 3/8 lo pro both having the exact same pitch is wrong. From my previous post #52 I compare a Picco 3/8 lo pro 8T rim and a 3/8 standard 8T rim. The Picco 8T rim is 1/16" or a little over 1mm larger in diameter then the standard 8T rim. So the pitch is not the same, I guess thats where the lo pro "extended pitch" term comes in. Don't try and measure the rims from my photo for comparison because the camera was not straight on so the Picco really looks alot bigger. Yep 1/16" difference. Willard. Last edited by Willard Holmen; 26th November 2009 at 04:48 PM.

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